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#364089 - 06/13/11 08:11 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
Earlybird, you are so far along in your recovery ...you may not see it or feel it, but you amaze me with the strides you have made smile

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My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#364095 - 06/13/11 10:05 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Darkheart,

I missed something important in your response and I wanted to bring it up for possible discussion. You said a friend taught you to “live in the now”. I find this extremely interesting and insightful. Kind of along the lines one hears from 12 step programs “one day at a time”. I’m not sure I can or want to take on this concept of “living in the now”. I do know I don’t want to live in the past nor is it helpful for me to live as if the only thing truly valuable is what is in my future either. So, you’ve idea of “live in the now” leaves me scratching my noggin. Would you like to elaborate? Earlybird

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
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#364096 - 06/13/11 10:25 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
I discovered that "forgiveness" feels incomplete or contrived IF it does not include "wishing them well." THAT was the missing key for me all those years that I could not even picture in my mind what "forgiveness" truly was/is. But think about it (and I got this from a pastor named Rob Bell), you are not TRULY forgiving someone until you wish them well too.

I forgave and then felt a TON of weight leave my heart. I am one-ton lighter today than a few years back. However, forgiving them did very little to address any of my trauma abuse symptoms. Rather, it sort of cut the anchor-line so I was not bogged-down with trying to pull THEM along with me on this voyage.

I have not however "let it go." It happened to me and there's no denying it. I think letting-go would be (for ME) contrived and difficult to work with.

Would meeting one of the four (especially the lead-perp) end up peaceful? I doubt it. I've found him and I now know a lot about him. His life went very well and continues to do so. Mine is not only a total cluster-fk of a train-wreck, but it’s a train-wreck of toxic-waste tanker cars as well. I'm not jealous, but I am confused as to how a guy that mean, that rotten, that perverted and that falsely loving to me could end up where he is.

_____________
I'm working on a short, action film on this very issue. Its a struggle as to what direction I take.


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I'm "that guy."

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#364100 - 06/13/11 11:50 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
well-intended Offline


Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Belgium
Earlybird,

I have some experience hanging onto the technique of "living in the now". It got me through some very critical times. I believe it has made the difference between being able to progress despite carrying this terrible fate, and eternal stagnation because of carrying this terrible fate. Allow me to hurl some walls of text at you, in an attempt to explain.

While the brain might get hopelessly stuck in the past, our senses do not. Though they do sometimes appear to. Moments of flashback can make one believe the traumatizing experience is happening all over again, and experienced through the senses. This is not true. It's the brain filling in information normally received from the senses. The brain does this constantly, trauma or no trauma. The top-down construction of consciousness, scientists call it. It's just that most of the time there's no noticable discrepancy between what the brain's expecting, and what the senses affirm to be true. But if there is discrepancy, and the root cause is psychological trauma, then the brain is to blame for creating illusions of reliving the past.

The senses themselves are inherenty rooted in the present. Therefore living in the now starts with the simple premise of focusing on your senses. Feel, see, hear, smell, taste, experience the position of your body (albeit rarely mentioned, we have sensors for that as well). Do not evoke memory. Do not suppress memory either. If you do recall, simply acknowledge you recall, and acknowledge that recalling is not what you're trying to do right now. The past does not matter. For all you know, you have spawned into existence a second ago. You are just the feedback loop that exists between senses and awareness. This feedback loop can tighten to the point it becomes awareness directly feeding back into itself. These are the territories of meditation, transcending the concepts of time, even the concepts of the subject-object separation that forms our basic frame for experiencing reality. But in order to live in the now, we do not need to forget time, nor reality. We need to rediscover how sensing in and of itself is a pleasurable act. How merely perceiving the world through our senses feels like a sufficient reason to live. This feeling is the primordial emotion of power. The joy of mere being. You control this feedback loop of senses and awareness, for it is you. There is infinite beauty in sensing alone, and you control this infinite beauty.

Next, feel how your power wants to expand. Look at a messy corner in your room, feel how the chaos deprives you of your feeling of power over it. Then, orden it. Feel how you have recreated, or gained power over, this little space of the universe. Cleaning up your room might have been a waste of time in the scheme of your usual daily activities and long term goals. Yet, you feel nevertheless how valuable of an act it was to your modified consciousness. Congratulations, you now have succesfully lived in the now! Rinse and repeat! smile

I have used this little mind trick countlessly to force myself to study, despite the effects of trauma on my ability to concentrate. The feeling I was growing more powerful with each page of each book I absorbed, was a sufficient motivator to get me through an academic education. Well... almost. But that's another story, heh.

Be warned that this technique can be abused. It does disconnect one from more complex emotions rather effectively. I would not be surprised if I turned out to have described the psychological mode of functioning psychopaths get caught up in, naturally. But if used consciously and sensibly, it can be a powerful tool overcoming periods of emotional stalemate.

Just my take on the topic. It might resonate with you, or it might not. If there's anything you think I could or should clarify any further, please, feel free to ask.


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#364102 - 06/13/11 03:35 PM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: well-intended]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Hello Robbie,

by the definition of forgiveness that you have presented I would never, nor do I feel obligated to, arrive at a place where I “wish my rapists well”. I feel I’ve done my job, well enough, in that I do not wish them injury. That’s enough in my book. The rest is up to them,

As to your abuser “doing so well” while his victims suffer – I don’t understand and is what gives me pause as to what, and in what I believe. I wish I had a better insight I’ll have to leave that to others.


Well-intended,

It would appear, at least to me, that you and DannyT have arrived at a similar method of closing in on how to bring a certain amount of peace to this awful situation. I appreciate your de>
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#364139 - 06/14/11 01:05 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
Earlybird,

I will try to find some additional resources to help explain the Now concept.

To help put it into terms you and i both relate to, picture a tree. What do you notice about the tree? The tree as a whole, or that one red leaf on the branch? The same with the beach. Do you see the whole expanse of sand, or that shiny conch shell?

For me, this is the hard part of my recovery ...learning to live in the moment, to seize each new second, rather that continue punishing myself over and over ..learning to see the little things, and not the whole picture ...

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#364141 - 06/14/11 02:42 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: Darkheart]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
Hey bro...i found this for you...

Never mind...was a dead link...



Edited by Darkheart (06/14/11 02:46 AM)
_________________________
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http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#364144 - 06/14/11 05:00 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: Darkheart]
max52 Offline


Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 32
Loc: usa
Forgivness? To me it means that I do not seek revenge.
I do not take an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
Wish them well? Jesus said "pray for your enemys" note they are
still your enemy, pray for God's mercy and their salvation.
Even Paul the Apostle called it like it is, "beware of Alexander the coppersmith, he has done me much evil" does that mean that Paul had not forgiven Alexander? To the extent that he did not seek revenge, yes.
I in my own life have noticed a cycle with abusers, I would forgive them and let them into my life again, as though nothing had ever happened, they would interpet this as weakness
and try to keep the dynamics of verbal and emotional abuse going.
The only remedy I found was to keep these folks out of my life,
I do not seek revenge, niether do I drink from a poisoned well.
Max


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#364146 - 06/14/11 06:25 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
well-intended Offline


Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Belgium
Indeed, living in the now is similar to meditation. You could say it's a mild form of meditation. At least that's how I have come to see it.

I absolutely understand how you can feel uncomfortable about the topic. I myself have travelled the road from strictly analytical thinking to this esoteric kind of thinking, and I don't think there has been any bump on the road I have not duly felt. But I have never ignored my inner sceptic, and neither should you. Inconsistencies with your personal attitudes, or with what you think is scientifically sound, have to be taken seriously.

That said, if you're looking to enhance the flexibility of your mind, I can wholeheartedly advise a tour through the literary tradition of philosophy. It's extremely insightful to witness minds, with varying levels of congruence to contemporary Western thinking, play with themselves, look for the boundaries between the knowable and the unknowable, and try to maximize the internal consistency of their respective world views and beliefs. It's helped me to deepen my respect for world views very dissimilar to my own, and taught me how granting the benefit of the doubt to whom I did not consider granting it before, can lead to surprising yet valuable insights.

Just an idea. If there's a lingering interest in philosophy down there somewhere, and I imagine in someone with such an eye for the sexiness of words there just might be, then perhaps it's time to stop postponing that trip to the library. smile


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#364148 - 06/14/11 07:36 AM Re: Forgiveness - Guns - or Reason? [Re: earlybird]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6602
Loc: FEMA Region 1
Originally Posted By: earlybird
Hello Robbie,

by the definition of forgiveness that you have presented I would never, nor do I feel obligated to, arrive at a place where I “wish my rapists well”. I feel I’ve done my job, well enough, in that I do not wish them injury. That’s enough in my book. The rest is up to them,


Earlybird,

I fully understand and support your position. For me, the missing-link of my 'understanding' of what forgiviness actually 'is,' became clear to me once I heared that extra component. It resonated with me, but does not have to become a required component at all for anyone. I think we all find the forgiviness that we can muster without feeling we've betrayed the child we were. Betrayal of Little Robbie was what I feared most. I use to get physically ill just thinking about forgiving them, because I had the act so firmly attached to a perceived betrayal of self.

I often wonder how they would react to hearing of my forginess. I fear it would be just like it would be received when I was a kid and they were teens, devouring me. I fully believe they would have taken it as yet another sign of undignified weakness and another reason to mock me and disgrace me in public. Such things had to always be avoided back then.

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I'm "that guy."

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