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#361500 - 05/05/11 02:55 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: Castle]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
I don't think it's your responsibility to provide support for a man who is essentially cheating on his girlfriend. He has issues, sure, and I feel for him, but that doesn't make what he and you are doing okay. It's a violation of her trust and just because he's been divorced doesn't mean she should guess that he is playing with another woman. I don't get the reasoning there. In any case, if he doesn't have anyone to talk to, that is not your problem. Trust me, I've had to come to terms with that myself. Being supportive is totally fine, but if it means I'm involved in something that could hurt me, him, or someone else, then I don't have any obligation or "need" to be in contact with him.


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#361501 - 05/05/11 03:02 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: hopeandtry]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
Also, I meant to say, it really bothers me that the responsibility is being put on this other woman for not being smart enough to guess what is going on! Say what???? How is she to blame for someone else's behavior that is a betrayal to her??


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#361503 - 05/05/11 03:49 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: hopeandtry]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
The rich ironies in my life...

Dear Castle,

I'm here, because he's my friend, and I never knew anything about abused children. This was all new to me. And I am trying to understand him. Very hard. I have read thousands of posts on this board. Thousands. I have read three books recommended. I've watched a movie that's been recommended by Pufferfish.

I am here to understand a survivor. And I am beginning to understand.

That is why I am here.

That's it. I want to understand. That is what this site is for, for friends and family. To help us understand.

I have read your thoughts and you have been very negative. I understand your viewpoint. He and I have discussed your viewpoint. Not by name.... I have seriously considered all the comments you have made over the months. Weighed them very carefully because I am trying to do good for him, not to do harm.

So, I am here trying to understand.

As far as betrayal, she would not believe what he does is good for her or acceptable I suppose. I would disagree that it is bad for her. I'm objective about harms, not emotional. He fulfills his obligations, all of them. And I observe I know a lot more about the situation than Hope4Him.

Now, let's see hell break loose.

I will point out the obvious: they are not married. That is the hard fact of the matter. If she doesn't like his behavior, she can move on. I'm not, unless he marries her. And then, when she divorces him, I'll return if that's what he wants.

Now, there's nothing to see here. I'm busy learning about male survivors so I can be a good friend. He has so many of the feelings described by so many here: fear of people being around him, of being touched, isolating and keeping his secrets, compartmentalizing his life, keeping himself very busy so that he can't think, a fear of thinking, taking on high risk activities, overcoming alcoholism,... a bad therapist who told him he was a bad child...

I can see so much of him in what the men here write about themselves.

And Robbie Brown's comments about the catastrophes of disclosure have been sobering to me. Very sobering. My friend has a lot to lose.

I'm here to learn, Castle. And I'm learning about my friend, a male survivor. Who happens to have a fetish. Which doesn't disqualify him as a survivor, or me as his friend.

D.



Edited by Disappointed (06/22/11 04:31 AM)
_________________________
Female.

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#361508 - 05/05/11 05:57 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: Disappointed]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
Also - I forgot - I posted initially because of Lavinia's original questions. I do not doubt as a wife, her husband may be telling her what he thinks she can handle.

As someone who isn't married, as someone who plays some of these games with a survivor, my experience may be helpful to her.

Maybe it's not. But she and I grapple with the same questions, but have done it at different times: is this harmful to him? do I really want to do this?

I have come to my conclusion: it's not harmful to him, and it is actually helpful to him. And I don't mind it.

But there is still more to understand.

Castle, if you're not interested in what F & Fs have to adapt to, then don't read what we write.

Dear Lavinia:

When I first met this man, I wrote to a professional dominatrix, trying to figure out how this worked. How he ticked. I didn't really understand what she said at the time, but she did say she had a stable relationship with what is called a "bottom," (a man who only wants this occasionally, when he's in the mood), and she specifically wrote to me that their relationship was very normal, except that every once in a while, he wanted her to tie him up, and if I remember correctly, beat him. Which she would.

Of course, she's a pro, and I'm sure she knows how to be safe and all that.

I've checked on a website I know, and it shows them as still being together. So, whatever they are doing works for them.

So, trying to live with this, there are lots of things to learn. It's a tightrope.

D.

_________________________
Female.

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#361519 - 05/05/11 10:49 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: Disappointed]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
Lavinia,
I would go with my gut... actually, I did. My friend had some requests that I found too uncomfortable to partake in so, I didn't. I find it highly unlikely you'd do anything to hurt your, Zack. At least not on purpose. He is very lucky to have you.

And I wanted to say something to D. And because it ties into Lavinia's topic, I don't feel I run any serious risk of hijacking her thread.


D.
I asked about the therapist because it may be a good idea for you to have someone qualified to talk to. Someone you can go to to help guide you through this. There was a time in my relationship, where my boyfriend and I came awfully close to him using me in order to actout. Sex can be tricky when the person you love has been deeply wounded by sex.

Later, I found out he was "doing bad stuff" (his words)with a woman. He, like your friend, confided in her about certain things. I know this because I found her number and called her. She told me that they had a "just sex relationship" and that she was ok with that but they were also good friends. I know that was a lie (she was good with it) because I read some of her emails and she was all bullshit that he called me his girlfriend and wouldn't her.

I am not saying I know what will happen between you and your friend but, if he feels bad after your playing... this is not a good sign. As he gets healthier he may not like these games and he may see you as a damaged person for playing them with him. I know that may sound unfair but I do know it is what happened with my ex and this woman he played games with. She has been out of his life for a long time. He is still in mine as a friend.

I don't know you personally but I do remember reading awhile back some things you wrote. You are an adult and you sound like you have it figured out and your fine with it. But, I feel that most women who are sexually intimate with a man.... they develop feelings for him. Most women can't give themselves to someone in that manner and not feel more than friendship.

I believe that he means a great deal to you. I see that in the way you are here at MS. Be careful. If your not concerned about the other woman he is seeing, if it doesn't bother you that he is seeing her then care for yourself. If you want a real chance to be with him down the road, don't do anything that can further damage or hurt him.

Honestly, I would question dominating him in any way. Call it what you want.... fetish, fun, games, playing.... considering what he has been through, sounds to me they may have been words used to belittle what his perp did to him. I wasen't comfortable with certain things so I didn't do it. When I found out about the other woman (who didn't know about me) he had to come clean . He told me that he felt bad for asking me to do certain things and that she would do them. He said he didn't want me "in that mess", that I was too good for that and he was so ashamed.

None of this is easy, it can be complicated at times. Basically, if you care about him, be his friend. Don't loose yourself in trying to please him. You might make worse for the both of you.

Take care.
Love,
Julia


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#361528 - 05/05/11 11:49 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: Julia]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
I'm not sure if the hell breaking loose comment was directed at me or not, but I assure you I will not be making any more comments on the matter after this. If you don't understand our concerns about this other woman, you don't.


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#361549 - 05/06/11 08:46 AM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: hopeandtry]
sally123 Offline


Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 54
Latv, I hope this post has helped you, and that you and your husband continue to grow closer... D,As I read these posts I couldn't help but see a parallel between the secretive abuse a survivor experiences and the secretive relationship you are having with your friend. It just seems that like a perpetuation of the abuse... Julia writes a beautiful message to you. It is obvious that you do care a great deal about your friend, but I think from the outside it is easy to see how this secret relationship is dangerous and based on secrets and fantasy, and has the potential to harm you and others. I hope that doesn't seem judgmental, rather a voice from a concerned observer. Many times we put ourselves in situations and denial allows us to see/feel as we wish. Been there. I wish you peace.


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#361553 - 05/06/11 10:15 AM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: sally123]
aloved1 Offline


Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 65
Loc: Texas
Lavinia, it's great that he can express these things to you. Communication and boundaries are so essential, and I do agree with everyone who says do not do anything you are not comfortable with. Keep that communication going, and my best to you both.

Disappointed, Julia said it best and so eloquently in her message to you. And you have to tread carefully because although he may not view this "play" as negative now, he may as he gets healthier, and as you have taken on the most active role in this "play", he may possibly come to resent you. My boyfriend also chooses to leave me out of the mess. I hate how he does it, as he tends to run away and detach; however, that, along with what he has confided in me, tells me that he does care and respect me underneath all of the yuck. I am safe to him. Never deceiving, never playing or toying with him. In my honest opinion, I just don't think "role playing/fantasies" are healthy to CSA survivors. I say this with all due respect, as I am no therapist. By the way, seeing a therapist is never a bad idea. I came to the conclusion that I just couldn't deal with all of this alone anymore, and have sought therapy. Maybe it is something to consider.

Also, I do question if you are at all following one of the biggest rules to partners. Are you taking care of yourself? Do you have your own interests and hobbies aside from your boyfriend? I only ask because something you said was of some concern. You said that should he marry the other woman, you would still be there for him when he gets divorced, if that's what he wanted. What about what YOU want? Would you really wait around and just continue where you two had left off?

I mean no disrespect nor judgment. I am just trying to understand and in doing so, provide my honest opinion and advice, as that's what we are here for on MS. My best to both of you!!


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#361564 - 05/06/11 02:18 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: aloved1]
Disappointed Offline


Registered: 08/11/09
Posts: 540
Loc: U.S.A.
lll



Edited by Disappointed (06/22/11 04:19 AM)
Edit Reason: Life Happens.
_________________________
Female.

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#361771 - 05/09/11 05:35 PM Re: Re-enactment or taking power back? [Re: Disappointed]
Julia Offline


Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 59
D.

I have stated before that I was given great advice here. I was advised to find out why I was attracted to a man so badly broken.... that there was something for me to learn about myself.

I understood that he's not your boyfriend and that the playing is his idea. Here's the thing though, your friend was broken inside a long time ago. His boundaries and his concept of things have been damaged. I'll go out on a limb and bet that he struggles a great deal about who he is. He may say or think by partaking in "playing" activities may help him but once agian, you are dealing with a man who has been deeply wounded.

If you are the less broken of the two of you and you care about him.....that leaves you (in my opinion) to make right in your friendship with him. Not only for him but for yourself.

I read here once that, Survivors were wounded in relationship and that it will be in a relationship that they will find healing. In your situation.... in your relationsip with your friend, do you truly feel that partaking in secrets or knowing he is misleading another woman, is that helping him become the man he was meant to be? Is it the woman you want to be? If he feels bad or ashamed after playing with you, how does that make you feel? I know if I allowed myself to be vulnerable to a man in an intimate situation and he felt bad about what we had done, I can assure you, we wouldn't be doing it together again.

It is true that you cannot make your friend do anything that he doesn't want to do. But, you can inspire him to want to do right... to want more for himself. And inspiring someone can be as easy as leading by example. To support them in safe possitive ways. You say you listen to him, that he tells you things that he tells noone else. If he is telling you that the play bothers him and you know that he has been hurt by being sexally abused.... if you care about him, why risk further damaging him?

There came a time in my relationship where I had to end it. Not because I didn't care but because I felt being in eachother's lives wasen't benefiting either one of us. I would do anything in the world to support him the only thing I wouldn't do is play a part in his failing.

I have to be honest D. I don't get a good feeling that a positive outcome is on the horizon for the two of you in regards to a healthy relationship. I get a sense that there is some serious closing of the eyes going on and denial. It happens to the very best of people.... But when I feel I could be witnessing it happening, I have the need to say so.

I haven't anything left to share with you on this matter but to wish well and be safe.

Good luck.
Love,
Julia


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