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#360019 - 04/17/11 07:01 PM SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.
nevragan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
I've been searching for answers regarding SSA lately. I know many of us here have issues with this and need answers too. I googled SSA and came up with a link by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. I have read most of it and it is really an in depth article. There are points that I'm not completely sold on and others that I really disagree about also. I thought I'd post the link for others to see.

**I know that there are some out there that disagree so let's keep this discussion about this topic in a civil manner towards each other. Everyone has an opinion. Enjoy!

http://narth.com/docs/niconew.html

Andy


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#360036 - 04/17/11 09:52 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: nevragan]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Wow man....

" As clinicians, we have witnessed the intense suffering caused by homosexuality, which many of our members see as a "failure to function according to design." "

These are the same old arguments about how some feel that homosexuality leads to unhappiness / unfulfillment and narrow definitions of what God's design is. Nature is full of sexual diversity- there are creatures that reproduce in all kinds of ways.... Just because we can't comprehend it does not make it a failure.

If SSA is for you just a distortion related to the abuse, then changing your behaviors and working through the abuse should clear up the feelings. If not, perhaps you're gay. It's really that simple.


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#360046 - 04/17/11 11:06 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
Fissy Tsickens Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/23/08
Posts: 466
Loc: Bassett, Virginia
I don't think this article or the points made therein apply to gay men who embrace their sexuality; rather, if you review the beginning of the article, the author is writing about SSA. Though perhaps not stated clearly, I take that to mean unwanted SSA. For me, personally, I read through it and saw myself in many of the authors assertions. Things just kind of "clicked" for me.

My way of thinking on this is that if you are happy with your sexuality, whatever it may be, then good for you! And who cares what the author or any other researchers say? But for someone like me, who is married 25+ years and fathered 5 kids, the SSA thing kinda gets a little dicey. You know, like the time when my wife checked my email and found the one where the guy I hooked up with discussed our previous rendezvous. Awkward.

In summary, I found this to be an enlightening article that led to numerous "aha moments" for me. Thanks for sharing it, Andy. And thank you, too, risingagain, for weighing in on it.

Peace,

John

_________________________
Wish that I could cry
Fall upon my knees
Find a way to lie
About a home I’ll never see

It may sound absurd...but don’t be naive
Even heroes have the right to bleed
I may be disturbed...but won’t you concede
Even heroes have the right to dream
It’s not easy to be me

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#360048 - 04/17/11 11:37 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Fissy Tsickens]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Well, certainly, but being married with kids does not make you straight. I know several gay men who were unhappy in their heterosexual marriage who later came out and felt much more happy and at peace. They continued to be involved in their children's lives, often in a more healthy and honest way.

It's individual.

Here's another perspective and some additional information on NARTH. I feel people should have all the facts:

http://www.truthwinsout.org/narth/

NARTH, and many other organizations driven by a subset of religious beliefs, project many stereotypes onto gay men and gay life.

I have never been the type of gay guy who drinks cocktails, discusses their hair and prefers women as friends. I was really afraid to accept myself. I was terrified that I would be like the man in those old Saturday Night Live skits .. he accepts he's gay and then suddenly he has an embarassing lisp.

There's nothing wrong with more feminine gay men. However, to color all gay man as being 'deficient in masculine' is like calling all black people 'excessive in aggression and thuggishness'. It's BS. There are more than a few pro level athletes in ultra-masculine sports like football which are gay. All of the 'causative' factors suggested by NARTH and others are just narrow reductions. And the depictions of life as a gay person as being meaningless, full of hook ups and drug parties, they don't represent the better possibilities that are out there for gay people....

I simply feel that people should have access to balanced information about what being gay is like. Family is very important to me, and I have learned that being happily gay, committed and raising children is not only possible, it is increasingly what gay men are looking for.

So when I hear 'acting out' I think of people who are pushing yet more of themselves down where they don't have to see it.

SSA is a set of feelings. For some it is just the desire to GET WITH, FUCK, BE FUCKED by another man. For others it includes romance, cuddling, and close care. For others it means the lifelong commitment of partnership. For some it is wanted, for others it is not wanted. In my experience the best way to avoid unnecessary suffering is to witness my thoughts and feelings and to listen to my heart about which course to steer. I don't believe in a single 'gold standard' of action, so I won't try to tell you how to live a happy life.

But I certainly believe it's possible to live a happy and gay life!

I hope to be there one day. For now, I would like to learn what Love is, not in terms of gender, but in terms of unconditional love: to be truly cared about by another person and to care about them too. To me, that's what really matters.


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#360054 - 04/18/11 12:38 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
He has written a couple of books on this subject.

Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality, A New Clinical Approach. by Joseph Nicolosi

http://www.amazon.com/Reparative-Therapy-Male-Homosexuality-Clinical/dp/0765701421/

and

A Parent's Guide to Preventing Homosexuality by Joseph Nicolosi.

http://www.amazon.com/Parents-Guide-Preventing-Homosexuality/dp/0830823794/

I have heard some tape recordings of his ideas and they sounded good to me. I have the books but I haven't read them yet.

Allen


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#360055 - 04/18/11 12:42 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: pufferfish]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Great, well whatever works for you bro!


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#360087 - 04/18/11 10:59 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. is an ideologue and resolutely anti-gay. Caveat emptor!

Here is just some of what Nicolosi has said:

Quote:
"Lesbians and homosexual men are 19 times and 14 times more likely, respectively, to have had syphilis than heterosexual men and women."
“We, as citizens, need to articulate God’s intent for human sexuality,”
“When we live our God-given integrity and our human dignity, there is no space for sex with a guy.”
"I do not believe that any man can ever be truly at peace in living out a homosexual orientation.”
"There is no such thing as a homosexual person. We are all heterosexuals. Homosexuality is a de>
_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360090 - 04/18/11 11:17 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
My experience of Lee on the weekend was that he was a very even-handed guy who really respected my needs and wishes.

For you guys struggling with unwanted SSA I think you'd be much more likely to get better treatment from a guy like him than someone with a fixed agenda around SSA.

I was actually pretty angry at Lee because he helps guys who want to reduce their SSA if that is their choice. My impression is he doesn't take sides on this issue.


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#360091 - 04/18/11 11:22 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Quote:
There's nothing wrong with more feminine gay men. However, to color all gay man as being 'deficient in masculine' is like


I wanted to add something here. I said this to a brother on the weekend. I told him that to me, a man's tears are about the most beautiful thing in the world.

So I need to correct myself, femininity is not weakness or deficiency. Masculine and feminine qualities are both awesome, and a man can be both.

Nothing like tenderness from a rough and tumble guy, I say!


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#360094 - 04/18/11 12:05 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 149
Loc: England (at the moment)
Joseph Nicolosi looks like he would have helped me over the years.

EFM's belief system forbids the notion that there is design and purpose to align to or clash with from a Designer.

EFM preaching is offensive to me.

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#360096 - 04/18/11 12:36 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
I couldn't agree with you more, EFM. Your "preaching" (reality-based truth telling, always the bane of ideologues) sits just fine with me. Nice to see some sanity among this rash of "SSA" discussion in the general forum (shouldn't it be discussed in the Sexual Identity Issues forum instead?)

What some of us find offensive here is others projecting their own beliefs onto whole groups of people and embracing the results-oriented 'research' of right-wing hate mongers by propping it up as some sort of reliable, factual foundation from which to operate on.

Oh, and evolution is not a 'myth'. Nice try to inject bizarre, nonsensical creationist arguments into a completely unrelated discussion though. Kindly keep the discussion here on survivor issues, and take the other stuff to Off Topic.

~Matty


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#360098 - 04/18/11 12:52 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
1.healing Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 261
Loc: NW Ohio

I stand with my gay and strait MaleSurvivor brothers who can see that repressing (aka, repairing, changing, fixing) ones sexual identity is not going to be healing for that person or more broadly for society. Learning to accept and understand yourself and others, even when someone may be very different than you is a better solution.

This site was intended, I thought, to be a place of healing, not one that covertly or overtly encourages the practice of gay bashing or homophobia. I understand that many men here were abused by other males, like I was. My perpetrator happened to be, or at least identify, as a strait male and he didn't color my sexuality one bit. What he did was mess with my head, with my self perception and self esteem, but I don't blame or see his sexuality as the problem. That was about his flawed nature, his antisocial and psychopathic personality, his lack of empathy, his need to be a destructive, chaotic, controlling and cruel, that was the problem. Changing his SSA would not have cured or made one iota of difference in him, his flaw was in his deviant personality. Sex crimes have nothing to do with attraction, they are about violence, expressed through sex acts, but it has nothing to do with a person's sexuality. To imply that, especially here, is completely unacceptable, it's homophobia at it's worst, there should be no place for that here, never here!


I'm also going to toss my hat of favor into the arena, books by Joe Kort, Phd who's written for MaleSurvivor and written about SSA/SMSM.

From Joe Kort's website:

Straight Guise is about straight men who have sex with men (SMSM) who question their sexual orientation and are not gay. It is about the many reasons men engage in sexual contact with other men that are not about a homosexual identity.

Straight men cannot become gay and gay men cannot become straight. Gay men are not gay due to complicated childhood experiences such as sexual abuse or problematic parenting. Science is increasingly pointing to the evidence that gay men are born that way.

There is a significant difference between sexual identity, sexual behavior and sexual fantasy and Straight Guise helps teach what these are.

Become the man you were meant to be!


Written from Dr. Joe Kort's perspective as an openly gay psychotherapist who has counseled thousands of sexually confused men over the years, Straight Guise shows how this phenomenon crosses all ethnicities and cultures. Not a week goes by when I don’t receive distressed emails or phone calls from heterosexual men who worry they might be gay and from wives who have discovered their husbands engaged in gay hookups and relationships or exploring gay porn.

Straight Guise intends to help readers just as I have helped my clients, first by separating the two types of men in the world: There are men who are gay and bisexual and then there are heterosexual men who seek out sex with other men.

The difference is one of sexual preference versus sexual identity. Sexual Preferences are about various desires, positions and fantasies one has whereas sexual identity is about how one self-identities in terms of straight, gay, or bisexual.

Straight Guise is not about Reparative Therapy which is harmful. It also is not a site about only pathologizing straight men who have sex with men. It is focused on understanding and differentiating sexual orientaion, sexual acting out normal sexual interest heterosexual men have in sexual contact with other men.



Straight Guise is affiliated with www.JoeKort.com

Free and confidential report on the most common questions received about Straight Guise sign up below at: JoeKortlmsw-362263@autocontactor.com

Copyright © 2011 StraightGuise
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Site Map

_________________________
"It's never too late to be what you might have been."

George Elliot

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life."

Virginia Woolf

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#360100 - 04/18/11 01:15 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: 1.healing]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 149
Loc: England (at the moment)
Majority bullying it is then?

Those who hold the 'reality-based truth telling' say "aye"

The ayes have it!

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#360105 - 04/18/11 02:55 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey CJ,

It's all an issue of the right therapies, for the right person, at the right time, and for the right reasons.

I'm clear that it's as important for men who don't identify as gay to have their beliefs respected when choosing a theraputic path, as it is for gay men making the same decision. Men who identify as straight, and are looking for therapy that helps them to deal with their unwanted Same-Sex Attraction, must have affirming options on the table for them.

It should never be about the idealogy of the practitioner - it has to be about the needs of the client.

My advice was "Let the buyer beware" for that reason. Every individual needs to know whether the person from whom they are seeking help is focused primarily on their needs, or is focused more on adhering to their own specific idealogy.

It's always up to individuals to decide their own path, but they need to think about it critically before they make that decision. I recommend that anyone considering elements of reparative therapy read the paper that I linked to by Dr. Beckstead to decide for themselves if it is suited to their situation and needs.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360107 - 04/18/11 03:28 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 149
Loc: England (at the moment)
Hi EFM,

Joseph Nicolosi says;

"For my clients, homosexual enactment does not represent their personal intentions, will or self-identity, and it is in violation of their aspirations and life goals. Gay life is unsatisfying to them, so they enter therapy in the hope of reducing their unwanted attractions and developing their heterosexual potential."

So those going in to that 'shop' know what they are getting. He is up front about who he is interested in trying to help...that is safe.

What looks to me more dangerous is the Practitioner who thinks he is free from idealogy because his beliefs are 'reality-based' as Moortje defined for us.

There is room here for all of us.
So we are agreed : let the individuals decide.

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

Top
#360110 - 04/18/11 03:40 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
I never claimed to be ideology-free. I'm a proud leftist, and I'm eminently aware of how that shapes my beliefs. That doesn't mean I can't see facts for what they are though, and quack research for what it is.

~Matty


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#360111 - 04/18/11 03:49 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
1.healing Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 261
Loc: NW Ohio

CheerfulJohn,

Feeling bullied is exactly what it feels like to a gay person when there's the belief and implication that we're broken some how, that being attracted to your same sex is wrong, that it's something that's a flaw and needs to be fixed. I'm sorry if our standing up for ourselves has felt that way to you, it is certainly your right to also express your opinion and it was possibly formed for you, as with me, through some bad experiences you had. You can't be surprised by such strong reactions, however, especially from men who have been abused and repressed not just by a CSA/SA perpetrator, but by society as a whole.

When I was in the 8TH grade, I had a breakdown in school because I couldn't handle the bullying that was ongoing because I had become such a vulnerable easy target. The daily harassment was a direct result of having been beaten down by my perpetrator cousin over time. His sexual abuse of me had been ongoing for two and a half years by then.

The school insisted that my parents take me for counseling because I wouldn't tell anyone what specifically was wrong. My parents found a male psychologist, recommended by our family doctor. I wasn't too keen on going, but had little choice, my thrill was further diminished when I got to actually meet the therapist. He was big, brusque, sort of loud and intimidating; that he saw that it was going to be necessary to make a better boy/man out of me was his mission by the next session. More father time, more sports time, driving around in his sports car (OK, that part wasn't too bad) to pro-shops and having to watch him shave and stuff... it was so obvious what he was attempting to do to me and it just made me mistrust him and shut down more than I already was. I would not have confided the sexual abuse to this man for anything. I became silently defiant, because it was my only defense against him. I was much less quiet about it at home though and learned how to have some pretty intense temper tantrums, something that had never been a part of my personality before. Getting to the core issue, my real problem sadly never happened and I continued to be abused for another year and suffer, as we all have, long after that time.

Twenty years later, badly experiencing delayed PTSD, I began therapy with a female therapist who's specialty was in CSA/SA and addiction. In the course of my treatment with Mary I was assured that I had been very right to resist that child psychologist attempts to change me and learned that what he had done was in itself abuse! Can you imagine how ridiculous it would seem if heterosexual people were given treatments and therapies to turn them into homosexuals? What is the point of such things, that's why I believe that we all need to be whatever our sexual identity is, to accept that part of ourselves and stop all the guilting and shaming of ourselves and others. I cannot drive something out of myself that's a part of my very fiber, nor would I want to. It's an important part of who I am, it's how I'm made. Be it genetic or learned, does it really matter, for me it just is and it's easier to accept myself for it. I deserve to live a life with the same freedoms as my straight neighbor, no different than, no more or less than, and not as an altered or fixed version of myself.

Gary

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." Martin Luther King, Jr.


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#360114 - 04/18/11 05:29 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: 1.healing]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 149
Loc: England (at the moment)
Hi Gary,

"Can you imagine how ridiculous it would seem if heterosexual people were given treatments and therapies to turn them into homosexuals?"

Yes

That's all I have ever experienced until I came here (other than with Christians and Jews). I was bullied for being gay when I wasn't. I wasn't at home with gays who all said that I must be gay, mocking me when I had my doubts. I "came out" to my family and was sent to counselling where it was confirmed "gay" because of SSA. I was imprisoned in this gender bending until I found people who challenged that assumption.

Sounds like I had double the trouble.

The ex-gay label, which I wore for a time (never very happy with it), invites an amazing amount of venom.

Good quote of Martin Luther King Jr.

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

Top
#360128 - 04/18/11 09:06 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
Joseph Nicolosi says;

"For my clients, homosexual enactment does not represent their personal intentions, will or self-identity, and it is in violation of their aspirations and life goals. Gay life is unsatisfying to them, so they enter therapy in the hope of reducing their unwanted attractions and developing their heterosexual potential."

So those going in to that 'shop' know what they are getting. He is up front about who he is interested in trying to help...that is safe.

That paragraph certainly doesn't tell people everything they need to know about Nicolosi or NARTH, the organization he co-founded. Nor does it make his practices "safe". He's claimed that gay men die young and are riddled with sexually transmitted diseases using the thoroughly discredited pseudo-science of Paul Cameron:

Quote:
"A recent study of 6,400 obituaries in 16 gay newspapers found that the average age of men dying from AIDS is 39. Moreover, the study of homosexual lifespan found that the average age of gay men dying from other causes is just 41 years old." - the footnote reads: "Paul Cameron, William J. Playfair, and Stephen Wellum, 'The Homosexual Lifespan,' Family Research Institute, Inc., Washington, D.C., 1992, updated to June, 1993."

"Lesbians and homosexual men are 19 times and 14 times more likely, respectively, to have had syphilis than heterosexual men and women" - the footnote reads: "P. Cameron, K. Proctor, and W. Coburn, 'Sexual Orientation and Sexually Transmitted Disease,' Nebraska Medical Journal, Vol. 70 No. 8, August 1985, pp. 292-299."

Here are some paragraphs that do tell you about the organization that Nicolosi founded from a report by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

Quote:
These reparative or ex-gay therapies have been discredited by virtually all major American medical, psychiatric, psychological and professional counseling organizations. The American Psychological Association, for instance, declared in 2006: "There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Our further concern is that the positions espoused by NARTH [the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality] and Focus on the Family create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish." The American Medical Association, for its part, officially "opposes the use of ‘reparative' or ‘conversion' therapy that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation." These organizations and other professional associations uniformly reject the idea that homosexuality is a mental illness.

Defamatory propaganda about gays and lesbians is a mainstay of the anti-gay movement. Perhaps the most influential anti-gay propagandist is Paul Cameron. After losing his job teaching psychology at the University of Nebraska, Cameron set himself up as an independent sex researcher in the late 1970s, churning out scores of anti-gay pamphlets that were distributed mostly in fundamentalist churches. Cameron's "studies" falsely concluded that gay people were disproportionately responsible for child molestation, serial killings and the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Gay people, according to Cameron's baseless claims, were obsessed with consuming human excrement, allowing them to spread deadly diseases simply by shaking hands with unsuspecting strangers or using public restrooms.

Cameron's research was debunked repeatedly in newspaper and magazine exposés, which showed his studies to be anything but scientific. But he soldiered on. Even after being expelled from the American Psychological Association in 1983 for violating ethical standards in his work, Cameron tried to stay in the game by now referring to himself as a sociologist — until the American Sociological Association passed a 1986 resolution declaring, "Paul Cameron is not a sociologist, and [this group] condemns his constant misrepresentation of sociological research."

And another paragraph from another SPLC report:

Quote:
The longtime president of NARTH is Joseph Nicolosi, a licensed psychotherapist who teaches that any man who thinks he's gay simply "has failed to enact his masculinity." NARTH, based in Encino, Calif., is a referral service for its more than 1,000 members, who are both religious and secular ex-gay counselors (NARTH does not require members to be licensed or accredited).

And this from Truth Wins Out :

Quote:
NARTH also has bizarre theories, such as encouraging male clients who drink Gatorade and call their friends “dude,” because this will supposedly make them more masculine. Dr. Nicolosi also espouses the bizarre idea that, “Non-homosexual men who experience defeat and failure may also experience homosexual fantasies or dreams.”
[...]
In 2006, NARTH had a meltdown after two major controversies. In the first, psychiatrist Joseph Berger, MD, a member of their “Scientific Advisory Committee,” wrote a paper encouraging students to “ridicule” gender variant children. “I suggest, indeed, letting children who wish go to school in clothes of the opposite sex–but not counseling other children to not tease them or hurt their feelings,” Dr. Berger wrote on NARTH’s website. “On the contrary, don’t interfere, and let the other children ridicule the child who has lost that clear boundary between play-acting at home and the reality needs of the outside world. Maybe, in this way, the child will re-establish that necessary boundary.”

In the second controversy, Gerald Schoenwolf, PhD, also a member of NARTH’s “Scientific Advisory Committee,” wrote a polemic on the group’s website that seemed to justify slavery: “With all due respect, there is another way, or other ways, to look at the race issue in America,” wrote Schoenwolf. “It could be pointed out, for example, that Africa at the time of slavery was still primarily a jungle, as yet uncivilized or industrialized. Life there was savage, as savage as the jungle for most people, and that it was the Africans themselves who first enslaved their own people. They sold their own people to other countries, and those brought to Europe, South America, America, and other countries, were in many ways better off than they had been in Africa. But if one even begins to say these things one is quickly shouted down as though one were a complete madman.”

The fallout from this controversy helped cause NARTH’s co-founder and president, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, to be voted out of his job at the group’s annual meeting.

You asserted:

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
What looks to me more dangerous is the Practitioner who thinks he is free from idealogy because his beliefs are 'reality-based' as Moortje defined for us.

What looks most dangerous is a practitioner with a history of creating an organization that defamed, demonized, and devalued gay and lesbian people, a history of poor judgment in assessing the credibility of research and sources, a history of intemperate and bizarre statements, and a history of advocating therapy that includes calling men "dude" and drinking Gatorade.

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
There is room here for all of us.

There certainly is.

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
So we are agreed : let the individuals decide.

Yes, now we can let the individuals decide.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360164 - 04/19/11 07:10 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Dan99 Offline


Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Washington DC
Wow. Moved the topic into the ghetto, huh? Let's get this back in the closet where it belongs. How pathetic!

_________________________
Work like you don't need the money;
dance like no one is watching;
sing like no one is listening;
love like you've never been hurt;
and live life every day as if it were your last.

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#360167 - 04/19/11 07:54 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Dan99]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
EFM wrote -

"it's important to recognize that there is a distinction between an organic same-sex attraction and one that is imposed by some form of sexual imprinting or trauma as in child sexual abuse."

I think this quote says it all for me.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#360180 - 04/19/11 10:05 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: prisonerID]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Thanks Daryl, ignoring the credibility of Nicolosi himself and the organization he co-founded, this is the nub of the issue here.

Dr Beckstead's paper that I linked to does make it clear that there is a place for reorientation therapy based on the client's goals and needs at the same time it points out the danger of unreasonable expectations and shame that reorientation therapy can create.

It would give me more faith in human nature if the work that Dr Beckstead is doing to focus on the actual outcomes for straight identifying clients with unwanted SSA and their needs, including reorientation therapy, was being mirrored in "ex-gay" organizations by having them focus on the needs of lesbian and gay clients by offering gay and lesbian affirming therapy.

But then, that would be counter to their whole reason for existing, wouldn't it?

Reorientation therapy may make sense for our straight brothers who are suffering with Same-Sex Attraction, and I hope that those considering it can find a clinician who is qualified, ethical, and capable of leaving their ideology outside the office and focus only on the needs of the client.

It's my opinion that, based on the evidence, Nicolosi is not that clinician. Your milage may vary.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360181 - 04/19/11 10:20 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Dan99]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey Dan,

Originally Posted By: Dan99
Wow. Moved the topic into the ghetto, huh? Let's get this back in the closet where it belongs. How pathetic!

If you have a cogent critique to make, please do so.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360187 - 04/19/11 11:27 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
As a gay man I am really disgusted and offended that this topic is on MS given the serious hurt and damage that organisations like narth have done to vulnerable gay men. It is an insidious homophobic organisation, full stop. In my humble opinion, to suggest that ex-gay therapies are worthy for consideration for those dealing with SSA is highly offensive, dangerous and deeply worrying.


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#360191 - 04/19/11 01:15 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Dan99 Offline


Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Washington DC
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
Hey Dan,

Originally Posted By: Dan99
Wow. Moved the topic into the ghetto, huh? Let's get this back in the closet where it belongs. How pathetic!

If you have a cogent critique to make, please do so.

-efm


My expanded comment is simply that SSA is a very difficult and painful topic for a lot of survivors. For me, it's been the toughest so far and hopefully the toughest ever.

I've gone through stages with it that are probably familiar to a lot of people. Wondering if being abused made me gay. Wondering how I could not be gay and at the same time be drawn to sex with men. The shame associated with it was nearly overwhelming at times as I struggled to figure it out and manage it.

This conversation I think cuts to the heart of a lot of the issues, and I felt that some of what was being said was useful and enlightening.

Specifically, the discussion between Gary and CJ above really struck a chord with me. How they both describe the same type of pressure, but from different perspectives. One pointing out how painful it is for a gay man to be pressured into trying to be straight. And the other pointing out how the same is true of a straight man being pigeonholed as someone who's in the closet. I've faced this issue myself, as people have wanted to label me. But this was the first time I've ever observed the parallels, and it struck me how we all react with the same frustration to this ridiculous pressure. And it is a pressure that all of us who face this will have to overcome.

I've finally learned to be very open about who and what I am, what I've done and with whom, what responsibility is mine and what isn't. In part, I've had to get so specific about it because people insist on processing this shit through their own labelling system. So I've been fairly blunt describing my situation. But it is painful, and requires bravery to confront all of this shit.

When I logged on this morning, I read the lastest posts and was inspired by how openly and honestly people were sharing their feelings, and I hopped in the shower to think about a reply, part of which was to note that there are probably only a handful of places where survivors can talk about this issue and not immediately be labelled as nuts or ostaracized.

Then when I log in to reply, what do I find? Even here the discussion is ostracized. I find the two SSA posts, this and the other one, had been shoved into a corner, and I don't like it when people try to silence the discussion. Like many survivors, I've dealt with people who want the discussion silenced all my life and I have little patience for it.

As an example, recently in New Hampshire, where I lived for a long while, the speaker of the house called out the catholic archbishop, noting that he lacked credibility to speak out on morality since he was nothing more than a 'pedophile pimp,' which is accurate. I love it that he said that. But, of course, two days later he had to apologize and retract. Not because what he said was wrong, but because it just shouldn't be talked about in polite company. Blah, blah, blah. I've come to expect that bullshit elsewhere. But here, among survivors, silencing honest, well-intentioned debate or trying to push it into a corner is wrong. So I spoke my opinion on it.

Is the link posted here from a quack? Probably. There are plenty of them out there. Some of the people who've helped me along the way may be considered quacks to others. My guess is the guy has success counselling straight men who really are confused and is harmful to gay men who are having a difficult time accepting their sexualty. I have no complaint with the people who want to debate the merits or lack of merit to what he says and point out the errors, false assumptions, bigotry etc. in what he says. In fact, I think it's healthy so that people who read his material get their eyes opened.

But pushing this whole discussion aside reenforces the idea that SSA is something to be ashamed of. That it shouldn't be seen in public. In the main forum you'll find people talking about god, gay relationships, women abusers, all topics that have their own special forums. But I don't notice them being shoved into the special forums. The people who posted these two topics did so in the main forum. So pushing them down here is tantamount to trying to shush them, in my opinion. Hence, my comment about putting the debate back in the closet.

If the debate had turned into namecalling, threatening or hate speech, fine, kill the tread and/or comments. But to do this to it is wrong.

_________________________
Work like you don't need the money;
dance like no one is watching;
sing like no one is listening;
love like you've never been hurt;
and live life every day as if it were your last.

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#360195 - 04/19/11 01:40 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
What do any of us know
about what God really wants?


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#360212 - 04/19/11 02:44 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Dan99]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Great observations, Dan. I'm glad you took the time to share them with us all in detail.

As an out gay man I don't think my same-sex attraction is anything to be ashamed of, but that doesn't mean I can't feel compassion for my brothers who feel that their same-sex attraction is an alien thing imposed on them and which causes them pain.

There is no such thing as an absolute one-size-fits-all answer. We all need options that will support our healing.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360231 - 04/19/11 07:09 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
The point is that The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academic of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association and other professional organisations have found reparative or conversion therapies to be unwarranted, ineffective, unethical and harmful. The American Psychological Association also has expressed grave concerns about this type of therapy.

Now having said that, what I am saying is that survivors who are dealing with SSA issues deserve to be treated with respect and be able to access support and treatment via therapeutic models that recognise how the issue of trauma impacts on a survivor's sexuality. As opposed to some model that is driven by fundamentalist christian principles and has been proven not to work in the vast majority of people.

There are countless examples of leaders of these reparative movement organisations, as well as ordinary members and clients, who have left such groups and now fight to have these groups discredited.

Recently in Australia there was a huge protest and outcry when an American Evangelist attempted to give seminars in public venues in regard to reparative therapies. As a result of the grave concerns expressed by leaders in the community these government agencies cancelled the seminars in the public venues. The seminars went ahead in the privacy of venues that were run by the christian ministry who organised to have this person speak. The government agencies when made aware of what the seminars were about said reparative therapy seminars were harmful and would not be tolerated.

The last thing I would want to see is my brothers with SSA getting caught up in a movement that has been discredited and admonished for the harm it has caused. So when I see a topic like this my blood boils because I don't want to see people being abused any further than they already have been.

A "well intentioned debate" is all well and good, but that doesn't make it right or safe when people are dealing with vulnerable issues.


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#360244 - 04/19/11 09:32 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: blaidd]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Blaidd,

I hear and understand the points you are making and if you read my previous posts in this thread you'll see I've made many of the same observations myself.

I know the harm that ideologically driven reparative therapy can have on gay identifying men, but at issue here are straight identifying men who have been abused or assaulted and don't feel that their same-sex attraction is congruent with their life and needs.

Some people are just straight and got abused or assaulted.

I think that straight identifying men with SSA want not being gay to be alright as much gay identifying men want being gay to be alright. I can't advocate taking options off the table for them any more than I'd want them taking gay affirming options off the table for me.

I got here after reading Dr. Beckstead's work that is trying to carve out some non-ideological middle ground where the needs of the client drive the goals and type of therapy. It's really about being informed consumers and giving freedom of choice for all of us. I really recommend that folks read the study by Dr. Beckstead that I linked to. It challenged my assumptions and helped me understand a different point of view.

Imagine what it would be like if everyone could just be who they are and there was no good/bad, moral/immoral, healthy/sick, straight/gay tags applied to us. I wonder if we'd even be having this conversation.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360310 - 04/20/11 01:00 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
efm, I am left speechless by your complicity and appeasement on this issue. I realise now that MS is not the place for me and my healing journey. I really am over the crap I have witnessed on this forum for more years than I care to mention. I wish you well on your own personal journey,

blaidd


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#360311 - 04/20/11 01:17 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: blaidd]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
That's sad to hear. It leads me to think that you can't possibly have read and understood what I'm actually trying to say.

Can you help me by telling me what you perceive I'm saying?

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360315 - 04/20/11 02:14 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: blaidd]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Men

When we share our experience-we build understanding and grow.

When we share opinions, theories, and academic discussions from the outside world, it has the danger of being untrue, divisive, and out of our depth if not out of our league.

Let's leave topics like this outside MS or at least on the level of "here's what the treatment world is discussing".

We here have too much uniquely in common and too much to share personally than to take up arms on one cause or another here at MS.

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#360330 - 04/20/11 08:10 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Mountainous Buck]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
There’s a pleasure found
In our difference. If only,
We’d not bite and scratch

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#360334 - 04/20/11 09:29 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: earlybird]
Ischyros Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 78
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Gentlemen,

It is a fact that Dr. Nicolosi's approach to understanding homosexuality is rooted in theology. His position on homosexuality is governed by assumptions about natural law, derived from the metaphysics and anthropology of St. Thomas Aquinas. On the basis of his understanding of St. Thomas, he can make breathtaking statements like this, from the NARTH website article entitled "Gay As Self-Reinvention":

Quote:
I wish to clarify my belief that there is no such thing as a gay person. Gay is a fictitious identity seized upon by an individual to resolve painful emotional challenges. The man who recognizes that he has a homosexual problem and struggles to overcome it is not "gay." He is, simply, "homosexual."


I am intimately familiar with Christian and therapeutic approaches to homosexuality that start from this basis. I am a veteran of "ex-gay ministry." I've been there, had the resulting breakdown, and did the real therapy to repair the damage that the "reparative therapy" created. In my opinion, the various professional organizations who have dismissed Dr. Nicolosi as a quack are entirely justified.

Similar quackery is advocated by individuals like Elizabeth Moberly, Andy Comiskey, Leanne Payne, and others. When challenged on the scientific validity of their theories, they immediately retreat to conspiracy theories ("the gay agenda") and loudly proclaim that their civil and religious rights are being violated. Sorry, gang. Dr. Nicolosi is not violating my religious rights when he says I as a gay man "don't exist," but he is indulging in absurd, offensive, non-scientific quackery, not to mention psychological and spiritual malpractice. And I'm not violating his religious rights when I say so.

Thank you, EFM, for your calm, fact-based and carefully researched posts to this thread. I wish I could be as intelligent and irenic about this topic as you are. But I still smart from the damage done to me by "reparative therapy." In fact, I think of myself as a survivor twice over - once of sexual abuse, then of the "ex-gay therapy" that was supposed to fix the damage but only made it much worse.

And just for the record, I was and remain a practicing Christian.

_________________________
Proud survivor and WoR alumnus - Sequoia, April 2010

I want to live in the world
Not inside my head
I want to live in the world
I want to stand and be counted
With the hopeful and the willing
With the open and the strong...

--Jackson Browne, "Alive In the World"

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#360805 - 04/26/11 05:05 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ischyros]
nevragan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 907
Loc: NC
Guys,
I've been reading your replys on the link. I think I've come to the conclusion that Nicolosi is basically a quack. I'm sorry that the "gay therapy techniques" used on people have caused more damage than help. In my lifetime so far I have met some really nice gay people. I would have to say that I don't see any reason for them to have to change who they are. Everyone is different and that is what makes up the world. If we were all the same then life would be boring. I will say that I didn't do homework on Nicolosi before I posted the link. I am glad however that his damaging ways have been brought out in the light for all to see in this thread. I will keep looking for more info on SSA as that is a subject that many of us struggle with. Thanks for being civil towards each other in this discussion. Take care,


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#361155 - 05/01/11 08:18 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: blaidd]
limit Offline


Registered: 04/23/11
Posts: 131
Text moved to moderator forum for review.


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#361179 - 05/01/11 03:55 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: limit]
Sterling Offline


Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
You R Good Man. We need this.
It is - HeAlTHy if you allow your felings to surface and express them. I love MS, thanks.


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#361180 - 05/01/11 03:59 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: nevragan]
Sterling Offline


Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 296
Loc: Winnipeg, Manitoba,Canada
thanks Neveragain. I would like it if were all nice and friendly . Unfortanetley the children pay. I like it to leave it to the individual; wheather he/she would Wishes to B who they Are! I dont want people to tak eany thing frojmmy identity or PERsonALitY. Validation IS important, Always.
To be unloved is sad. Very sad.
James


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#363853 - 06/08/11 10:56 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Sterling]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
For those who want some more context and history about therapy to prevent boys from being gay, CNN began a three part series last night on "The 'Sissy-boy' Experiment: Therapy designed to make feminine boys more masculine".



In just the first part, I was struck by how a happy child's life can be turned into a nightmare by the manipulation and experimentation of adults, and that the impacts of this kind abuse can be life-long, and even life-ending.

The researcher working with Kirk built a "conversion therapy" career on these experiments and their "success". That researcher is George Rekers , a member of the founding board of the Family Research Council and, until recently, a board member of NARTH until he was caught returning from a vacation with a "rent boy" by the Miami New Times.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#363945 - 06/10/11 07:38 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Here are Part 2:


And Part 3 (where Nicolosi makes an appearance):


-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#363951 - 06/10/11 10:53 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I just stumbled upon this paper titled "IMPLICATIONS OF THE STEREOTYPING AND MODIFICATION OF SEX ROLE" written in 1977 expressing concerns about the research and treatment conducted by Rekers on Kirk Murphy:

Quote:
In their recent article, Rekers and Lovaas (1974) appear to be not only accepting but also supporting sex-role stereotyping, thereby failing to contribute to the solution of a larger social problem. Although they admit that social and parental pressure led them to conduct sex-role therapy, their work raises the question of the responsibility for the nature of the therapy.

The article goes on to say:

Quote:
The final reason for treatment was that the boy's parents were concerned. If a therapist takes only this point into consideration, then the therapist has become the parents' agent, rather than the child's, or society's. Can the therapist justify that short-sighted a role? What are the consequences for the field, and for society, if that were to become common practice?

It is difficult for a therapist to be fully aware of all the issues involved when changing behaviors defined not by the person whose behavior is in question, but by other agents, such as parents or courts. This is especially true when treatment is not done by request of the person being treated. In such situations, it may be important and prudent for the therapist to seek out other people who may be more aware of the various issues involved. In this instance, the therapists could have consulted with women and men of the feminist movement, spokespersons for lesbian and homosexual organizations, representatives of AABT positions concerning homosexuality, children's rights advocates, and others. These people might have shown the therapists other sides of sex-role typing as a social process.

I think this gets back to the point I've made before where a course of treatment directed by factors other than the self-expressed needs of the patient themselves (theology, ideology, fear, discomfort, and shame) or without a holistic examination of all factors and options is rarely in the service of the patient's best interests.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#364021 - 06/12/11 03:02 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Just....yuck. I have unwanted OSA. We LET them fuck us all up.

_________________________
Thriving

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#364277 - 06/15/11 10:49 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: mogigo]
thefutureorbust Offline


Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 171
Loc: NC
well for myself I had a double whammy, I was sexually abused by my father by age 5 AND my father was emotionally withdrawn and my mother was excessively obsessed with me, over protective, dominat etc, I suffer from unwanted SSA, I have never acted out with men in my life but Have been with many women sexually and emotionally, but SSA causes me anxiety and upsets me badly and makes me feel less of a man and I became shut down to talk to women. When I feel in control and as if I OWN my masculinity I can talk to any girl and flirt. But why is Dr Nic is completly out of control by saying SSA and homosexuality is caused generated by unmet childhood needs...Why is that such a horrible thing to say? He never shames any of his clients or stuffs god down thier throats, he even tells them if they want to act out while in therapy fine, be be aware of your emotions and what needs your trying to fullfill. SSA is about unmet needs, you throw sexual abuse into the mix especially by your FATHER and your going to get very messed up wiring as a kid.

_________________________
"What does not kill me makes me stronger"

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#364283 - 06/16/11 02:25 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: thefutureorbust]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey Freshwound,

I'm really interested to see the citations and studies that you believe support "unmet childhood needs" as the source of same-sex attraction and that Nicolosi never "stuffs god down thier (sic) throats".

I'm frankly curious why SSA is about unmet needs and OSA isn't. I remember feeling an emotional attachment to other boys (a crush) before my abuse and before my father passed away. How does that square with your hypothesis?

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#364303 - 06/16/11 08:09 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
thefutureorbust Offline


Registered: 04/24/11
Posts: 171
Loc: NC
wasnt trying to offend you man. Just looking for answers because my SSA isnt wanted. I like women. But with everything I read on Nicolosi, he never mentioned god. He said if someone comes to him saying they want to do this because of their faith that it wont work. People have changed using his methods. I have never been with a man in my life outside of abuse so for me there is nothing to change except unwanted SSA which is a result of never really bonding with my father outside of him abusing me. Wasn't trying to piss you off but I don't believe anyone is born gay or born with ssa thats my opinion.

_________________________
"What does not kill me makes me stronger"

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#364310 - 06/16/11 09:09 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: thefutureorbust]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
No offense taken, freshwound. Broad brush hypotheses about the cause of SSA, especially those that seem to lump together the organic attraction that gay men feel with potential sexual imprinting coming from abuse experienced by straight men, always make me want to know the evidence or research that supports it so I can evaluate it critically. Did you get a chance to read this entire thread and the references it points to?

Myself and others have assembled a fair amount of information including direct quotes from Nicolosi and first person accounts from his patients that show the religious and ideological genesis and focus of his work, regardless of how he now attempts to package it to potential clients.

Credible research supporting the efficacy for Nicolosi's treatment is very thin. I linked earlier to a research study by Lee Beckstead, PhD that talks about the outcomes for a group of clients who underwent "reparative therapy" and the different ideologies at play in the options for treatment. It's well worth a read, in my opinion, to get a feel for this area of therapy.

Nicolosi's therapy is dangerous and destructive for gay men, but I don't rule out that, removed from it's ideological roots and in the hands of non-ideological clinician, it may be of help to straight men grappling with the effects of sexual imprinting and abuse. This thread is long, but take some time to read it all and the references it cites to get a more complete picture of Nicolosi, his motivations, his therapeutic approach, and the outcomes it produces.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#364342 - 06/16/11 06:21 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Driftwood Offline


Registered: 05/27/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Colorado
My two cents for what it's worth:

I just read through this whole thread and what I find amazing is, despite the bubbling emotions under the surface, how basically civil everyone is. There seem to be two separate ideas being addressed, and I suspect it must be especially tough on the straight guys with unwanted SSA, who might be feeling lost in the shuffle. Imagine being straight and having to endure those feelings and all the confusion it brings as you’re trying to put your life back together after abuse. Imagine looking everywhere for someone or something that might be able to help. Imagine thinking you’ve finally found it in Dr. Nicolosi’s therapy, feeling a glimmer of hope, and then having everything shot to hell in this thread...

I can understand the disappointment felt by some of those straight men. They deserve to have hope for healing. They deserve good, solid, healthy therapies to help them deal with unwanted SSA.

And yet, if Dr. Nicolosi’s therapies are potentially damaging, guys looking for healing deserve to know that too. It would seem from efm’s research that Nicolosi’s elevation of his own agenda over varying clients’ needs is dishonest. Certainly, it’s damaging for gay people.

And it’s probably good for straight men to understand the anger gay men feel when any subject connected to reparative therapy comes up. It’s unbelievable, the torture some people are subjected to. Michael Bussee, one of the former leaders of Exodus (a reparative therapy organization), writes about one young man who “took a razor blade to his genitals, slashed himself repeatedly, and then poured drain-cleaner on the wounds--because after months of celibacy he had a ‘fall’.” (“Statement of Apology by Former Exodus Leaders”) To my straight brothers out there, please understand the level of emotion the subject causes for us.

For efm to provide clear scholarly research in such a calm way is both generous and admirable, even if it may not be the answer originally hoped for.


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#364363 - 06/16/11 11:03 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Driftwood]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Driftwood,

All I can add is "well said".


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#364393 - 06/17/11 01:33 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: prisonerID]
Anthony39 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
I would like to add to what is being said in this thread:

I came to this site in order to come to terms with my CSA. I am a "straight" male and I use that term loosely because as time goes by that word has become less and less significant in my mind. I have had and still do have issue with my SSA or attraction to males whatever we want to call it. Is it due to the abuse or not, I don't know for sure , i may never know.
I don't believe that sexual orientation is the most important issue survivors face. In my opinion intimacy and all the emotions that were suppressed because of the abuse are far more important.
I would imagine that most of the people who struggle with their sexuality, struggle not because of who they are but because of external pressures, family, friends, society. They may come to believe that there is something wrong with them.
My personal experience is taking me somewhere i never thought i could. I am slowly letting go of labels and really look i what i want and how i feel. I'll tell you something. I started endulging my SSA or attraction fantasies, and you know what, it kind of broke the spell for me. It is still there, it's part of me but it no longer obsesses my mind and i can focus on what I really want: real intimacy with real people, emotions, laughter, crying, sharing my thoughts, how I feel. Male or female is irrelevant. Maybe one day it won't matter at all. We have a chance to transcend the labels and social barriers, we are in a unique position to be able to go for the essence of being human, not many people have that vision of the world. So I'm not fighting it, it's counterproductive for my healing.
An orgasm lasts but a few seconds, you gotta fill the rest of the 24hours.

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#364394 - 06/17/11 01:40 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Anthony39]
Anthony39 Offline
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Registered: 02/15/07
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Loc: Montreal, Canada
P.S. I forgot:

Sometimes I wonder what the motivation is for those so called "scientific researchers". What is the point of the study? to what end?

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#364449 - 06/18/11 10:19 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Anthony39]
prisonerID Offline
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Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Tony,

I find your words not only intelligent and thoughtful but spot on as well.

Ah, "who benefits?" is a key thought that should be applied to this and to many things in life. That includes theories and therapies as well.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#364682 - 06/21/11 02:20 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Driftwood]
mogigo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Yes///amazing response. as a 'sexual' man, completely in love...and YES. happy. Why go further???? why is my happiness a '????' for your's?.

The only question "is why does anyone else's life, have anything to do with mine'. If this is a question you have to ask....I don't envy you, because I've been there. But I AM happy.

Stay strong
Mog...Mike

_________________________
Thriving

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#364895 - 06/25/11 03:36 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
mogigo Offline
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Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
really mark?? Everyone else's experience has to co-incide with your experience???? Cause No one had a different experience than you had.

_________________________
Thriving

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#364896 - 06/25/11 03:49 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: mogigo]
mogigo Offline
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Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1331
Loc: Colorado
Oh, and wondering what your old name on MS was Mark.....go away if that's what you need. stop harming people

_________________________
Thriving

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#364905 - 06/25/11 10:19 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: mogigo]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Mogigo,

You are upset, but it's not clear to me what about so it's difficult for me to address.

Everyone is entitled to their own experience, but we're not entitled to our own facts. Statements about our own lives are irrefutable, but generalizing our own experiences or our opinions to everyone else as though they are fact is not.

I am not relating my first person experience in this thread so much as I am my perception of the credible research done in this field as a counterpoint to the misinformation offered by "reparative" therapists. If you have other data from research to share that puts forward your point of view, I'd be happy to look at it.

Your allegations that I'm "hurting people" and have changed my identity are vague. If you have any concerns, please address them to myself in PM and/or a moderator.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#364964 - 06/26/11 06:08 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
The self-righteousness of the men who are adamantly against those who deal with unwanted SSA is helpful to no one. I have been a sufferer of SSA and I was sexually molested. I am basically healed of my SSA after having acted out with men in my teens and 20's. I thought I was gay. I started having fantasies about women in my 20's. I am heterosexual yet I was attracted to men. I am not now. I've read Nicolosi as well as other authors. I'm part of a secular posting group like this for men dealing with unwanted SSA. (Thank god we don't have to deal with gay rights zealots who are blind to anyone else's pain but their own.) I've gone to gay therapists and hetero therapists and now have gotten a lot of the help I need.

I am sick of having to be quiet so that gay men can rule the day with their point of view. Many gay men react so poorly if anyone talks about unwanted SSA because it raises questions they don't want to ask of themselves. That's the only reason it would inflame such passion. Oh, that, and wanting desperately to hold onto the identity of being a victim at any cost and not allowing for another voice to be heard that contradicts them. Its automatically hate to contradict or to deal with one's sexuality that doesn't move one towards coming out as a gay man. Its all because its threatening to gay men because they don't want to question their behavior/orientation because its a very tough issue and support is lacking if one realizes he might in fact be heterosexually oriented.

Ever fixed Mark, you love to analyze from afar. I've lived it and my experience is nothing like your analysis. I used to analyze it like you, with a level of disdain and looking for empirical evidence. Even when someone simply says to you "it worked for me" is that evidence enough? What would be evidence enough?

You're not the arbiter of anyone else's sex life, you've never lived in anyone else's shoes and you don't know everything even if you could read every bit of research. You are intolerant and you shouldn't be posting on here in that manner. Its highly offensive and you make this place unsafe. That's sad and wrong.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#364965 - 06/26/11 06:17 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
EdfromNYC Offline
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Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
I think Nicolosi is brilliant and dead on and I have never read anything of his that I disagree with. I believe it is dangerous for men who are not ready for to do the real work that it requires. I believe the people who pull it apart and don't get it are threatened by it and will say it hurts people based on scant evidence in order to dismiss it.

I experience things; you read studies. I used to believe I was always the smartest guy in the room like you. Now, I'm just becoming more of a regular guy because I've done this work on my SSA and on my sexual abuse. I am coming closer to just learning to be one of the guys based on all of the work I've done. Its so sad and lonely to be defensively detatched from other men.



Edited by EdfromNYC (06/26/11 06:19 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#364986 - 06/26/11 09:58 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: EdfromNYC]
pufferfish Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
Nicolosi's ideas are a lot like those advocated in books on fostering masculinity in boys. I wrote a post on it yesterday. Nobody questioned the post in that context.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...4882#Post364882

Allen


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#364990 - 06/26/11 10:37 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: pufferfish]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey EdfromNYC,

I suggest you read the entire thread including the parts where I reject the idea that there is nothing worth looking at in "reorientation therapy" for straight men suffering SSA (that would be the part where some gay brothers called me names).

The literature and first person accounts talk about the harm that can be done to gay men (who have an organic attraction to the same sex), but I hold open the door for straight men who have SSA imposed upon them by sexual abuse by pointing at a study by Lee Beckstead, PhD who talks about the needs of the client ruling the treatment, and not the ideology of the practitioner. There are first person accounts from gay survivors who have experienced the negative side of "reparative therapy" in this thread and I find them compelling. If you have a first person account you wish to share, please do so.

I'm not willing to take "reorientation therapy" off the table for straight guys because I don't want straight guys to take gay affirming therapy off the table for gay guys. At the end of the day, the client needs the treatment that supports their goals.

It's curious to me that I'm the gay guy on your side (refusing to dismiss "reorientation therapy" outright) and you're unhappy with me. At most I'm guilty of trying to clear some space for everyone to get what they need to heal, gay or straight. I want all non-ideological options on the table. Period. Read the whole thread and then we can talk more. Cheers.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#365007 - 06/27/11 03:35 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
1lifenow Offline


Registered: 03/07/11
Posts: 412
Loc: west coast
Aren't we all just trying to find love.

This is such a tough subject because sometimes boys that would have been straight were abused and sometimes boys that would have been gay. Depending when and how the abuse occurred, it affects the psyche of each group differently. But ultimately everyones experience is unique.

I've included a tv skit from the mid 80's. Sort of sums it up, not that most guys even the gay ones sound like him, but so much fuss about a few extra S's.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aeWdXK6iLY

Speaking for myself, the bigger issues are trust, honesty, intimacy and being able to care for someone who cares about you. I understand the confusion, but considering what we have ALL been through, the reason for anger escapes me.

_________________________
The need for love lies at the very foundation of human existence. Dalai Lama

WoR Barrie 2011

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#365010 - 06/27/11 06:29 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: 1lifenow]
EdfromNYC Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
Ever fixed Mark, I still think you think you've got it all figured out that gay equals gay forever. No one is forcing any therapy on anyone. I was gay; then I knew I wasn't. According to your logic, I was a gay guy and therefore I shouldn't be permitted to pursue reparative therapy because it would be harmful.

When I was in my early 20's, I had a therapist who was assigned to me through a medical school who was gay. I was with him for a year, left and came back in my mid 20's and started to talk about how I realized that at 13 when an adult male who was a stranger had sexual relations with me that I thought it was sexual abuse and that I might not be gay, he tried to persuade me that was the wrong path to pursue. Those were his words. He thought I was gay and that was it. He did so much damage to me by increasing my self-doubt and isolation. It lingered for years.

So your ideas about reparative therapy are wrong and offensive because you think you know more than you do. And its all under the umbrella of "don't ever hurt a gay guy" as though a gay person's pain is worse. That is not true and gays don't have it worse and are not the ultimate victims. This is about sexual abuse and you and others made it about harm to gays through absolutely no evidence except anecdotal evidence.

What, because you read one or two guys saying they were "harmed" by reparative therapy that its wrong? What if they just weren't ready for it? What if they went into it with the agenda of belittling it? There's absolutely nothing conclusive about what you've written, you have no personal experience with it and yet you act like you actually know something.

The thread is about SSA. If you want to write about gay affirmative therapy, start a new thread. No one here is against gay affirmative therapy; people here are for SSA therapy. Your view isn't right, its just your view.

Do I think gay affirmative therapy is harmful? Does it matter? I think SSA therapy is helpful to me and in recovering both from my abuse and my SSA. And by the way, I don't believe the my SSA stem just from my abuse. I was abused because I was already SSA afflicted and the circumstances were such that I was in a position to be abused. My abuse just made my SSA problem more confused. I believe SSA therapy is treating a root disorder in me but I don't believe that other people, gay or straight, don't each have their own path to pursue.

I am all for healing. In my case it is healing both from the abuse and SSA. But this group is about healing from abuse. I support every man's right to find out how best to heal from the abuse. But I don't need any other man who has no experience except his own fears that are based on anecdotal, second-, third- and fourth-hand internet-based evidence to give me advice on work that I have first-hand experience doing.

I was in a therapeutic mens group for sexual abuse survivors and there was a gay man in there with the views that I was gay and that was it and he attacked me verbally and angrily. I saw that it was because it touched fears in him that made him question his entire foundation. That is his problem; if you have the same problem, its your problem. Its not my problem to make you or others comfortable with yourselves. If you actually did gay affimative therapy and it worked fully and completely, you'd have no issue with other therapies that made other people feel the whole and complete.

As a gay man, I used to seek out injustice and the wrongs against gays. I was always looking for it. And I found it even when it wasn't there. I now know I was a hurt boy rejecting people before they could reject me, especially rejecting other men. I was spiteful, mean, lonely, intellectual, analytical, convinced I was always right. I was part of Act Up in NYC in the late 80's/early 90's and realized it was just a bunch of angry boys, angry at being gay, angry at their dads, angry at anything but mostly angry at their own confusion and dissatisfaction. I know now that I was intolerant when I was preaching tolerance. Really, it was all about ME and you had to agree with what I was saying because I knew better but I knew nothing. I just knew anger and self-justifying behavior.

Now, I admit I only know what I know through my own personal experience. Do I generalize that to everyone else? I do not. I do however have opinions that differ from typical gay affirmative therapy but I haven't lived in another man's skin so I don't know what is going to work for another man. Do I believe gay affirmative therapy can be as harmful as reparative therapy? Absolutely, no doubt. But I wouldn't go into a gay affirmative therapy thread to spout off my uninformed, lacking experience opinion based on things that I've read to try to convince others that I am right.

_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#365014 - 06/27/11 07:27 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I find your responses confusing because they put forward views and opinions as mine that I haven't actually expressed and don't agree with. I can only assume you haven't read the entire thread to get the full context of this discussion.

I have no certainty about whether and when someone is gay or straight and so my focus in this SSA thread has been to find a middle ground where treatment for SSA is something we can all talk about if it is what the individual wants, and where gay-affirming therapy can be talked about if that's what the individual wants. I object to the *ideology* of people like Nicolosi and Rekers (and to their less-than-professional practices), but I'm at least as disturbed by the idea of a gay therapist putting forward their own agenda in a relationship that has to be first and foremost about their client's healing. That's simply wrong. That's the reason I cited Lee Beckstead who has done work in this area exploring the agendas of therapists *on both sides* and how that loses sight of the clients needs and goals. From one of my earlier posts in this thread:

Quote:
Rather than looking at Nicolosi, why not look at the evaluation of the options and understand how ideology affects them? Cures vs. Choices: Agendas in Sexual Reorientation Therapy by A. Lee Beckstead Ph.D. Dr. Beckstead has experience working with survivors and his work assessing the outcomes of different therapies places more options on the table for clients to choose from.

Some of us know that we are straight, some know that we are gay, and some are confused about our sexuality by our abuse, and perhaps other life experiences. I'm for clients being able to set their own goals in therapy and pursue them when it is *their needs* that are front and center and not the ideology of the practitioner.

I contend that all treatment options need to be on the table for clients dealing with SSA - both straight and gay affirming. In this, I don't see a disagreement, do you?

Given how little I think we actually disagree, I can't help but feel you are having an argument with, or are angry with, someone else and that I'm being used as a convenient, if poorly fitted, proxy for that person.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#365020 - 06/27/11 08:37 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: pufferfish]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: pufferfish
Nicolosi's ideas are a lot like those advocated in books on fostering masculinity in boys. I wrote a post on it yesterday. Nobody questioned the post in that context.

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...4882#Post364882

Thanks Pufferfish, I've only read Pollack's "Real Boys" which I really got a lot out of. In fact, I recommended it to my brother as he and his wife are bringing up two boys. I liked the approach Pollack took especially regarding "The Boy Code" and gender non-conformant behavior in boys. This section strikes me as pretty succinct:

Quote:
'"No sissy stuff." Perhaps the most traumatizing and dangerous injunction thrust upon boys and men is the literal gender straightjacket that prohibits them from expressing feelings or urges seen (mistakenly) as feminine - dependence, warmth, empathy. According to the ideal of "no sissy stuff" such feelings and behavior are taboo. Rather than being allowed to explore these emotional states and activities, boys are prematurely forced to shut them out, to become self-reliant. And when boys start to break under the strain, when nonetheless they display "feminine" feelings or behaviors, they are usually greeted not with empathy, but with ridicule, with taunts and threats that shame them for their failure to act and feel in stereotypically "masculine" ways. And so boys become determined never to act that way again - they bury those feelings.'

One of the reasons I recommended this book to my brother is that he has already expressed a fear that one of his boys is gay simply based on feelings and behavior that my brother perceives as gender non-confirming - the kid was barely even 5 when he formed this opinion. I tend to think that's more a product of his own homophobia than truly gender non-conforming at this stage - he seems like a very ordinary boy of his age to me.

In "Real Boys", Pollack advocates for letting boys explore these emotional states and behaviors without punishing them. This seems in very stark contrast to Nicolosi, Rekers, and their colleagues who have advocated punishing and shaming boys whose behavior they deem "effeminate", regardless of what their actual sexual orientation might be.

It's worth noting that the "behavior modification" that Rekers used on Kirk Murphy resulted in a similar determination "never to act that way again" but didn't change his self-reported sexual orientation or lead to a better health outcome.

I'm traveling so I don't have access to the print copy of "Real Boys" right now, but I know Pollack covers the development and experiences of boys inclusively - straight and gay.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#365109 - 06/28/11 04:20 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
EdfromNYC Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 233
Loc: New York City
This statement right here states your problem in full:
"I object to the *ideology* of people like Nicolosi and Rekers (and to their less-than-professional practices)..."

What do you know besides a few snippets that you've read? What do you know besides anecdotal evidence of "harms" to mysterious no-name people? You've imagined really bad things that aren't happening on the scale you think but you're convinced that the "middle ground" that you see as the "middle ground" is the place we all should meet.

We don't have to meet in your middle ground. We can disagree completely and still recover from sexual abuse. I can choose to clean up my SSA and recover from my abuse. For you to try to argue against something that helps others is wrong.

There does not have to be a middle ground. You can do it your way and I can do it mine. We don't have to agree just because we're abuse survivors. I'm here primarily for recovery from my abuse; my SSA is tangentially related but it is related.

I try things and see if they work and keep an open mind. I no longer read the internet and base my opinions on out of context statements by those with axes to grind. I don't let second-, third-, fourth-, fifth-hand relations of events make up my mind. Contempt prior to investigation is an awful way to try to live happily.

I truly say to each his own, without the parameters that you want others to meet for your own reasons. If it works for someone, why does it matter if some therapist puts out his agenda?

That middle ground argument is you wanting others to see it you way.



Edited by EdfromNYC (06/28/11 09:07 PM)
_________________________
And more, much more, the heart may feel,
Than the pen may write or the lip reveal.
Winthrop Mackworth Praed

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#365141 - 06/28/11 10:45 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: EdfromNYC]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
This is no longer a productive discussion.

The only way we might get to say "to each his own" is if you agree that having a gay therapist impose their ideology on a patient (something you objected to) is as valid and as acceptable as having a "reparative" therapist do the same (something I object to). I don't believe either are acceptable - you believe at least one, if not both, are acceptable. I guess we're done.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#365184 - 06/29/11 08:24 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Gentlemen,

This is a topic that will never be resolved between individuals who come from as diverse background and philosophy as is evident in this conversation. We believe the usefulness of this discussion has run it's course and is currently serving only to fuel unproductive discord and anger. With that in mind this thread is being closed. We ask that the discussion not be carried to other threads unless or until those involved can treat each other with respect and civility. Any discussions that do not meet that basic criteria will be closed and further action taken if deemed necessary.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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