EFM wrote -

"it's important to recognize that there is a distinction between an organic same-sex attraction and one that is imposed by some form of sexual imprinting or trauma as in child sexual abuse."

I think this quote says it all for me.


Daryl

Thanks Daryl, ignoring the credibility of Nicolosi himself and the organization he co-founded, this is the nub of the issue here.

Dr Beckstead's paper that I linked to does make it clear that there is a place for reorientation therapy based on the client's goals and needs at the same time it points out the danger of unreasonable expectations and shame that reorientation therapy can create.

It would give me more faith in human nature if the work that Dr Beckstead is doing to focus on the actual outcomes for straight identifying clients with unwanted SSA and their needs, including reorientation therapy, was being mirrored in "ex-gay" organizations by having them focus on the needs of lesbian and gay clients by offering gay and lesbian affirming therapy.

But then, that would be counter to their whole reason for existing, wouldn't it?

Reorientation therapy may make sense for our straight brothers who are suffering with Same-Sex Attraction, and I hope that those considering it can find a clinician who is qualified, ethical, and capable of leaving their ideology outside the office and focus only on the needs of the client.

It's my opinion that, based on the evidence, Nicolosi is not that clinician. Your milage may vary.

-efm

Hey Dan,


If you have a cogent critique to make, please do so.

-efm

As a gay man I am really disgusted and offended that this topic is on MS given the serious hurt and damage that organisations like narth have done to vulnerable gay men. It is an insidious homophobic organisation, full stop. In my humble opinion, to suggest that ex-gay therapies are worthy for consideration for those dealing with SSA is highly offensive, dangerous and deeply worrying.

My expanded comment is simply that SSA is a very difficult and painful topic for a lot of survivors. For me, it's been the toughest so far and hopefully the toughest ever.

I've gone through stages with it that are probably familiar to a lot of people. Wondering if being abused made me gay. Wondering how I could not be gay and at the same time be drawn to sex with men. The shame associated with it was nearly overwhelming at times as I struggled to figure it out and manage it.

This conversation I think cuts to the heart of a lot of the issues, and I felt that some of what was being said was useful and enlightening.

Specifically, the discussion between Gary and CJ above really struck a chord with me. How they both describe the same type of pressure, but from different perspectives. One pointing out how painful it is for a gay man to be pressured into trying to be straight. And the other pointing out how the same is true of a straight man being pigeonholed as someone who's in the closet. I've faced this issue myself, as people have wanted to label me. But this was the first time I've ever observed the parallels, and it struck me how we all react with the same frustration to this ridiculous pressure. And it is a pressure that all of us who face this will have to overcome.

I've finally learned to be very open about who and what I am, what I've done and with whom, what responsibility is mine and what isn't. In part, I've had to get so specific about it because people insist on processing this shit through their own labelling system. So I've been fairly blunt describing my situation. But it is painful, and requires bravery to confront all of this shit.

When I logged on this morning, I read the lastest posts and was inspired by how openly and honestly people were sharing their feelings, and I hopped in the shower to think about a reply, part of which was to note that there are probably only a handful of places where survivors can talk about this issue and not immediately be labelled as nuts or ostaracized.

Then when I log in to reply, what do I find? Even here the discussion is ostracized. I find the two SSA posts, this and the other one, had been shoved into a corner, and I don't like it when people try to silence the discussion. Like many survivors, I've dealt with people who want the discussion silenced all my life and I have little patience for it.

As an example, recently in New Hampshire, where I lived for a long while, the speaker of the house called out the catholic archbishop, noting that he lacked credibility to speak out on morality since he was nothing more than a 'pedophile pimp,' which is accurate. I love it that he said that. But, of course, two days later he had to apologize and retract. Not because what he said was wrong, but because it just shouldn't be talked about in polite company. Blah, blah, blah. I've come to expect that bullshit elsewhere. But here, among survivors, silencing honest, well-intentioned debate or trying to push it into a corner is wrong. So I spoke my opinion on it.

Is the link posted here from a quack? Probably. There are plenty of them out there. Some of the people who've helped me along the way may be considered quacks to others. My guess is the guy has success counselling straight men who really are confused and is harmful to gay men who are having a difficult time accepting their sexualty. I have no complaint with the people who want to debate the merits or lack of merit to what he says and point out the errors, false assumptions, bigotry etc. in what he says. In fact, I think it's healthy so that people who read his material get their eyes opened.

But pushing this whole discussion aside reenforces the idea that SSA is something to be ashamed of. That it shouldn't be seen in public. In the main forum you'll find people talking about god, gay relationships, women abusers, all topics that have their own special forums. But I don't notice them being shoved into the special forums. The people who posted these two topics did so in the main forum. So pushing them down here is tantamount to trying to shush them, in my opinion. Hence, my comment about putting the debate back in the closet.

If the debate had turned into namecalling, threatening or hate speech, fine, kill the tread and/or comments. But to do this to it is wrong.

What do any of us know
about what God really wants?

Great observations, Dan. I'm glad you took the time to share them with us all in detail.

As an out gay man I don't think my same-sex attraction is anything to be ashamed of, but that doesn't mean I can't feel compassion for my brothers who feel that their same-sex attraction is an alien thing imposed on them and which causes them pain.

There is no such thing as an absolute one-size-fits-all answer. We all need options that will support our healing.

-efm

The point is that The American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academic of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association and other professional organisations have found reparative or conversion therapies to be unwarranted, ineffective, unethical and harmful. The American Psychological Association also has expressed grave concerns about this type of therapy.

Now having said that, what I am saying is that survivors who are dealing with SSA issues deserve to be treated with respect and be able to access support and treatment via therapeutic models that recognise how the issue of trauma impacts on a survivor's sexuality. As opposed to some model that is driven by fundamentalist christian principles and has been proven not to work in the vast majority of people.

There are countless examples of leaders of these reparative movement organisations, as well as ordinary members and clients, who have left such groups and now fight to have these groups discredited.

Recently in Australia there was a huge protest and outcry when an American Evangelist attempted to give seminars in public venues in regard to reparative therapies. As a result of the grave concerns expressed by leaders in the community these government agencies cancelled the seminars in the public venues. The seminars went ahead in the privacy of venues that were run by the christian ministry who organised to have this person speak. The government agencies when made aware of what the seminars were about said reparative therapy seminars were harmful and would not be tolerated.

The last thing I would want to see is my brothers with SSA getting caught up in a movement that has been discredited and admonished for the harm it has caused. So when I see a topic like this my blood boils because I don't want to see people being abused any further than they already have been.

A "well intentioned debate" is all well and good, but that doesn't make it right or safe when people are dealing with vulnerable issues.

Blaidd,

I hear and understand the points you are making and if you read my previous posts in this thread you'll see I've made many of the same observations myself.

I know the harm that ideologically driven reparative therapy can have on gay identifying men, but at issue here are straight identifying men who have been abused or assaulted and don't feel that their same-sex attraction is congruent with their life and needs.

Some people are just straight and got abused or assaulted.

I think that straight identifying men with SSA want not being gay to be alright as much gay identifying men want being gay to be alright. I can't advocate taking options off the table for them any more than I'd want them taking gay affirming options off the table for me.

I got here after reading Dr. Beckstead's work that is trying to carve out some non-ideological middle ground where the needs of the client drive the goals and type of therapy. It's really about being informed consumers and giving freedom of choice for all of us. I really recommend that folks read the study by Dr. Beckstead that I linked to. It challenged my assumptions and helped me understand a different point of view.

Imagine what it would be like if everyone could just be who they are and there was no good/bad, moral/immoral, healthy/sick, straight/gay tags applied to us. I wonder if we'd even be having this conversation.

-efm

efm, I am left speechless by your complicity and appeasement on this issue. I realise now that MS is not the place for me and my healing journey. I really am over the crap I have witnessed on this forum for more years than I care to mention. I wish you well on your own personal journey,

blaidd