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#360096 - 04/18/11 12:36 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
I couldn't agree with you more, EFM. Your "preaching" (reality-based truth telling, always the bane of ideologues) sits just fine with me. Nice to see some sanity among this rash of "SSA" discussion in the general forum (shouldn't it be discussed in the Sexual Identity Issues forum instead?)

What some of us find offensive here is others projecting their own beliefs onto whole groups of people and embracing the results-oriented 'research' of right-wing hate mongers by propping it up as some sort of reliable, factual foundation from which to operate on.

Oh, and evolution is not a 'myth'. Nice try to inject bizarre, nonsensical creationist arguments into a completely unrelated discussion though. Kindly keep the discussion here on survivor issues, and take the other stuff to Off Topic.

~Matty


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#360098 - 04/18/11 12:52 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: risingagain]
1.healing Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 261
Loc: NW Ohio

I stand with my gay and strait MaleSurvivor brothers who can see that repressing (aka, repairing, changing, fixing) ones sexual identity is not going to be healing for that person or more broadly for society. Learning to accept and understand yourself and others, even when someone may be very different than you is a better solution.

This site was intended, I thought, to be a place of healing, not one that covertly or overtly encourages the practice of gay bashing or homophobia. I understand that many men here were abused by other males, like I was. My perpetrator happened to be, or at least identify, as a strait male and he didn't color my sexuality one bit. What he did was mess with my head, with my self perception and self esteem, but I don't blame or see his sexuality as the problem. That was about his flawed nature, his antisocial and psychopathic personality, his lack of empathy, his need to be a destructive, chaotic, controlling and cruel, that was the problem. Changing his SSA would not have cured or made one iota of difference in him, his flaw was in his deviant personality. Sex crimes have nothing to do with attraction, they are about violence, expressed through sex acts, but it has nothing to do with a person's sexuality. To imply that, especially here, is completely unacceptable, it's homophobia at it's worst, there should be no place for that here, never here!


I'm also going to toss my hat of favor into the arena, books by Joe Kort, Phd who's written for MaleSurvivor and written about SSA/SMSM.

From Joe Kort's website:

Straight Guise is about straight men who have sex with men (SMSM) who question their sexual orientation and are not gay. It is about the many reasons men engage in sexual contact with other men that are not about a homosexual identity.

Straight men cannot become gay and gay men cannot become straight. Gay men are not gay due to complicated childhood experiences such as sexual abuse or problematic parenting. Science is increasingly pointing to the evidence that gay men are born that way.

There is a significant difference between sexual identity, sexual behavior and sexual fantasy and Straight Guise helps teach what these are.

Become the man you were meant to be!


Written from Dr. Joe Kort's perspective as an openly gay psychotherapist who has counseled thousands of sexually confused men over the years, Straight Guise shows how this phenomenon crosses all ethnicities and cultures. Not a week goes by when I don’t receive distressed emails or phone calls from heterosexual men who worry they might be gay and from wives who have discovered their husbands engaged in gay hookups and relationships or exploring gay porn.

Straight Guise intends to help readers just as I have helped my clients, first by separating the two types of men in the world: There are men who are gay and bisexual and then there are heterosexual men who seek out sex with other men.

The difference is one of sexual preference versus sexual identity. Sexual Preferences are about various desires, positions and fantasies one has whereas sexual identity is about how one self-identities in terms of straight, gay, or bisexual.

Straight Guise is not about Reparative Therapy which is harmful. It also is not a site about only pathologizing straight men who have sex with men. It is focused on understanding and differentiating sexual orientaion, sexual acting out normal sexual interest heterosexual men have in sexual contact with other men.



Straight Guise is affiliated with www.JoeKort.com

Free and confidential report on the most common questions received about Straight Guise sign up below at: JoeKortlmsw-362263@autocontactor.com

Copyright © 2011 StraightGuise
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Site Map

_________________________
"It's never too late to be what you might have been."

George Elliot

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life."

Virginia Woolf

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#360100 - 04/18/11 01:15 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: 1.healing]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 142
Loc: England (at the moment)
Majority bullying it is then?

Those who hold the 'reality-based truth telling' say "aye"

The ayes have it!

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#360105 - 04/18/11 02:55 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
Hey CJ,

It's all an issue of the right therapies, for the right person, at the right time, and for the right reasons.

I'm clear that it's as important for men who don't identify as gay to have their beliefs respected when choosing a theraputic path, as it is for gay men making the same decision. Men who identify as straight, and are looking for therapy that helps them to deal with their unwanted Same-Sex Attraction, must have affirming options on the table for them.

It should never be about the idealogy of the practitioner - it has to be about the needs of the client.

My advice was "Let the buyer beware" for that reason. Every individual needs to know whether the person from whom they are seeking help is focused primarily on their needs, or is focused more on adhering to their own specific idealogy.

It's always up to individuals to decide their own path, but they need to think about it critically before they make that decision. I recommend that anyone considering elements of reparative therapy read the paper that I linked to by Dr. Beckstead to decide for themselves if it is suited to their situation and needs.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360107 - 04/18/11 03:28 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 142
Loc: England (at the moment)
Hi EFM,

Joseph Nicolosi says;

"For my clients, homosexual enactment does not represent their personal intentions, will or self-identity, and it is in violation of their aspirations and life goals. Gay life is unsatisfying to them, so they enter therapy in the hope of reducing their unwanted attractions and developing their heterosexual potential."

So those going in to that 'shop' know what they are getting. He is up front about who he is interested in trying to help...that is safe.

What looks to me more dangerous is the Practitioner who thinks he is free from idealogy because his beliefs are 'reality-based' as Moortje defined for us.

There is room here for all of us.
So we are agreed : let the individuals decide.

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#360110 - 04/18/11 03:40 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
I never claimed to be ideology-free. I'm a proud leftist, and I'm eminently aware of how that shapes my beliefs. That doesn't mean I can't see facts for what they are though, and quack research for what it is.

~Matty


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#360111 - 04/18/11 03:49 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
1.healing Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 261
Loc: NW Ohio

CheerfulJohn,

Feeling bullied is exactly what it feels like to a gay person when there's the belief and implication that we're broken some how, that being attracted to your same sex is wrong, that it's something that's a flaw and needs to be fixed. I'm sorry if our standing up for ourselves has felt that way to you, it is certainly your right to also express your opinion and it was possibly formed for you, as with me, through some bad experiences you had. You can't be surprised by such strong reactions, however, especially from men who have been abused and repressed not just by a CSA/SA perpetrator, but by society as a whole.

When I was in the 8TH grade, I had a breakdown in school because I couldn't handle the bullying that was ongoing because I had become such a vulnerable easy target. The daily harassment was a direct result of having been beaten down by my perpetrator cousin over time. His sexual abuse of me had been ongoing for two and a half years by then.

The school insisted that my parents take me for counseling because I wouldn't tell anyone what specifically was wrong. My parents found a male psychologist, recommended by our family doctor. I wasn't too keen on going, but had little choice, my thrill was further diminished when I got to actually meet the therapist. He was big, brusque, sort of loud and intimidating; that he saw that it was going to be necessary to make a better boy/man out of me was his mission by the next session. More father time, more sports time, driving around in his sports car (OK, that part wasn't too bad) to pro-shops and having to watch him shave and stuff... it was so obvious what he was attempting to do to me and it just made me mistrust him and shut down more than I already was. I would not have confided the sexual abuse to this man for anything. I became silently defiant, because it was my only defense against him. I was much less quiet about it at home though and learned how to have some pretty intense temper tantrums, something that had never been a part of my personality before. Getting to the core issue, my real problem sadly never happened and I continued to be abused for another year and suffer, as we all have, long after that time.

Twenty years later, badly experiencing delayed PTSD, I began therapy with a female therapist who's specialty was in CSA/SA and addiction. In the course of my treatment with Mary I was assured that I had been very right to resist that child psychologist attempts to change me and learned that what he had done was in itself abuse! Can you imagine how ridiculous it would seem if heterosexual people were given treatments and therapies to turn them into homosexuals? What is the point of such things, that's why I believe that we all need to be whatever our sexual identity is, to accept that part of ourselves and stop all the guilting and shaming of ourselves and others. I cannot drive something out of myself that's a part of my very fiber, nor would I want to. It's an important part of who I am, it's how I'm made. Be it genetic or learned, does it really matter, for me it just is and it's easier to accept myself for it. I deserve to live a life with the same freedoms as my straight neighbor, no different than, no more or less than, and not as an altered or fixed version of myself.

Gary

"Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." Martin Luther King, Jr.


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#360114 - 04/18/11 05:29 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: 1.healing]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 142
Loc: England (at the moment)
Hi Gary,

"Can you imagine how ridiculous it would seem if heterosexual people were given treatments and therapies to turn them into homosexuals?"

Yes

That's all I have ever experienced until I came here (other than with Christians and Jews). I was bullied for being gay when I wasn't. I wasn't at home with gays who all said that I must be gay, mocking me when I had my doubts. I "came out" to my family and was sent to counselling where it was confirmed "gay" because of SSA. I was imprisoned in this gender bending until I found people who challenged that assumption.

Sounds like I had double the trouble.

The ex-gay label, which I wore for a time (never very happy with it), invites an amazing amount of venom.

Good quote of Martin Luther King Jr.

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

Top
#360128 - 04/18/11 09:06 PM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
Joseph Nicolosi says;

"For my clients, homosexual enactment does not represent their personal intentions, will or self-identity, and it is in violation of their aspirations and life goals. Gay life is unsatisfying to them, so they enter therapy in the hope of reducing their unwanted attractions and developing their heterosexual potential."

So those going in to that 'shop' know what they are getting. He is up front about who he is interested in trying to help...that is safe.

That paragraph certainly doesn't tell people everything they need to know about Nicolosi or NARTH, the organization he co-founded. Nor does it make his practices "safe". He's claimed that gay men die young and are riddled with sexually transmitted diseases using the thoroughly discredited pseudo-science of Paul Cameron:

Quote:
"A recent study of 6,400 obituaries in 16 gay newspapers found that the average age of men dying from AIDS is 39. Moreover, the study of homosexual lifespan found that the average age of gay men dying from other causes is just 41 years old." - the footnote reads: "Paul Cameron, William J. Playfair, and Stephen Wellum, 'The Homosexual Lifespan,' Family Research Institute, Inc., Washington, D.C., 1992, updated to June, 1993."

"Lesbians and homosexual men are 19 times and 14 times more likely, respectively, to have had syphilis than heterosexual men and women" - the footnote reads: "P. Cameron, K. Proctor, and W. Coburn, 'Sexual Orientation and Sexually Transmitted Disease,' Nebraska Medical Journal, Vol. 70 No. 8, August 1985, pp. 292-299."

Here are some paragraphs that do tell you about the organization that Nicolosi founded from a report by the Southern Poverty Law Center:

Quote:
These reparative or ex-gay therapies have been discredited by virtually all major American medical, psychiatric, psychological and professional counseling organizations. The American Psychological Association, for instance, declared in 2006: "There is simply no sufficiently scientifically sound evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Our further concern is that the positions espoused by NARTH [the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality] and Focus on the Family create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish." The American Medical Association, for its part, officially "opposes the use of ‘reparative' or ‘conversion' therapy that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation." These organizations and other professional associations uniformly reject the idea that homosexuality is a mental illness.

Defamatory propaganda about gays and lesbians is a mainstay of the anti-gay movement. Perhaps the most influential anti-gay propagandist is Paul Cameron. After losing his job teaching psychology at the University of Nebraska, Cameron set himself up as an independent sex researcher in the late 1970s, churning out scores of anti-gay pamphlets that were distributed mostly in fundamentalist churches. Cameron's "studies" falsely concluded that gay people were disproportionately responsible for child molestation, serial killings and the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Gay people, according to Cameron's baseless claims, were obsessed with consuming human excrement, allowing them to spread deadly diseases simply by shaking hands with unsuspecting strangers or using public restrooms.

Cameron's research was debunked repeatedly in newspaper and magazine exposés, which showed his studies to be anything but scientific. But he soldiered on. Even after being expelled from the American Psychological Association in 1983 for violating ethical standards in his work, Cameron tried to stay in the game by now referring to himself as a sociologist — until the American Sociological Association passed a 1986 resolution declaring, "Paul Cameron is not a sociologist, and [this group] condemns his constant misrepresentation of sociological research."

And another paragraph from another SPLC report:

Quote:
The longtime president of NARTH is Joseph Nicolosi, a licensed psychotherapist who teaches that any man who thinks he's gay simply "has failed to enact his masculinity." NARTH, based in Encino, Calif., is a referral service for its more than 1,000 members, who are both religious and secular ex-gay counselors (NARTH does not require members to be licensed or accredited).

And this from Truth Wins Out :

Quote:
NARTH also has bizarre theories, such as encouraging male clients who drink Gatorade and call their friends “dude,” because this will supposedly make them more masculine. Dr. Nicolosi also espouses the bizarre idea that, “Non-homosexual men who experience defeat and failure may also experience homosexual fantasies or dreams.”
[...]
In 2006, NARTH had a meltdown after two major controversies. In the first, psychiatrist Joseph Berger, MD, a member of their “Scientific Advisory Committee,” wrote a paper encouraging students to “ridicule” gender variant children. “I suggest, indeed, letting children who wish go to school in clothes of the opposite sex–but not counseling other children to not tease them or hurt their feelings,” Dr. Berger wrote on NARTH’s website. “On the contrary, don’t interfere, and let the other children ridicule the child who has lost that clear boundary between play-acting at home and the reality needs of the outside world. Maybe, in this way, the child will re-establish that necessary boundary.”

In the second controversy, Gerald Schoenwolf, PhD, also a member of NARTH’s “Scientific Advisory Committee,” wrote a polemic on the group’s website that seemed to justify slavery: “With all due respect, there is another way, or other ways, to look at the race issue in America,” wrote Schoenwolf. “It could be pointed out, for example, that Africa at the time of slavery was still primarily a jungle, as yet uncivilized or industrialized. Life there was savage, as savage as the jungle for most people, and that it was the Africans themselves who first enslaved their own people. They sold their own people to other countries, and those brought to Europe, South America, America, and other countries, were in many ways better off than they had been in Africa. But if one even begins to say these things one is quickly shouted down as though one were a complete madman.”

The fallout from this controversy helped cause NARTH’s co-founder and president, Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, to be voted out of his job at the group’s annual meeting.

You asserted:

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
What looks to me more dangerous is the Practitioner who thinks he is free from idealogy because his beliefs are 'reality-based' as Moortje defined for us.

What looks most dangerous is a practitioner with a history of creating an organization that defamed, demonized, and devalued gay and lesbian people, a history of poor judgment in assessing the credibility of research and sources, a history of intemperate and bizarre statements, and a history of advocating therapy that includes calling men "dude" and drinking Gatorade.

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
There is room here for all of us.

There certainly is.

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
So we are agreed : let the individuals decide.

Yes, now we can let the individuals decide.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#360164 - 04/19/11 07:10 AM Re: SSA Article by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Dan99 Offline


Registered: 06/18/07
Posts: 100
Loc: Washington DC
Wow. Moved the topic into the ghetto, huh? Let's get this back in the closet where it belongs. How pathetic!

_________________________
Work like you don't need the money;
dance like no one is watching;
sing like no one is listening;
love like you've never been hurt;
and live life every day as if it were your last.

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