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#35933 - 04/18/01 05:32 PM blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I was pushed to the test Monday in my group,
they helped me realize that I was not at fault. I blamed myself for the abuse. I am not sure what is next, here I am
On my way. I still struggle. Thanks for listening.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35934 - 04/19/01 08:42 AM Re: blame
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6
Michael:
This is what I wrote to Sharculle. Hope that it helps you and all...


One thing that I'd like to impart to you and others is that you have to stop
looking at your situation as a matter of forgiving yourself...yadda, yadda.

forgive (v.t.)
for·give

1. to grant pardon for or
remission of (an offense, debt,
etc.); absolve.

Supp. Note: syn . See"excuse."

2. to give up all claim on account
of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.).

3. to grant pardon to (a person).

4. to cease to feel resentment
against: Example: to forgive one's
enemies.

5. to cancel an indebtedness or
liability of: Example: to forgive
the interest owed on a loan.

6. to pardon an offense or an
offender.


By the very definition of "forgive" what do you or any other victim have to
forgive themselves about? You were not deceptive, conniving, manipulative
nor an out and out liar. You were not the instigator, initiator and most
importantly, the perpetrator.

All of these years you've add issues w/ trust but your silence and "keeping
secrets" PROVES that YOU were the trustworthy one all along, not that
scheming predator(s). Stop reflecting(rumminating) back on those moments
when you had ABSOLUTELY no control over the situation w/ the eyes, mind
and intelligence of an adult. It's not fair to judge the child that you used to
be as "stupid, ignorant, co-conspiring, whorish..." w/ the sense of a fully
grown adult. Children do not have adult minds and adult sense. What you
"know now" you could never have known as a child so STOP wrongfully
accusing/judging the child you used to be and still may be w/ your adult
knowledge/mind/standards.

I sincerely wish that noted psychologists would stop telling folks to "forgive
yourself...." because you have done nothing which requires absolution or
pardon.

If you don't believe me....


victim (n.)
vic·tim

1. a person who suffers from a
destructive or injurious action or
agency: Example: a victim of an
automobile accident.

2. a person who is deceived or
cheated, as by his or her own
emotions or ignorance, by the
dishonesty of others, or by some
impersonal agency: Example: a
victim of misplaced confidence;
the victim of a swindler; a victim of
an optical illusion.

3. a person or animal sacrificed or
regarded as sacrificed: Example:
war victims.

4. a living creature sacrificed in
religious rites.


Take care!!!

[This message has been edited by Harmony (edited 04-19-2001).]


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#35935 - 04/23/01 06:43 AM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Why am I recreating situations like the abuse? Throughout my life I have gotten hurt, I want to not be this little boy searching for love, finding something else.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35936 - 04/24/01 05:12 PM Re: blame
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6
It's due to a very distinct pattern formed in your sub-conscious when you were a child. It's not that you "seek" abusers, it's that you "recognize" them. Their mannerisms, behaviors and attitudes are familiar to you on a sub-conscious level and once a potential abusers says or does something that you recognize, a light bulb goes off in your head, like throwing a light switch and "bing!" you've found what your sub-conscious was looking for...familiarity.

That is why it is difficult to break this and all habits (good or bad) because you're "wired" to seek "familiarity" or that which we have been conditioned to know. What is key is re-conditioning or re-wiring your mind. This is possible. But the same way you are conditioned to fear dogs, you will have to teach your mind to recognize "good" and "bad" people/behavior.

You will know what I mean once people and their behavior deviates from your current programming. For example, you might be leery of someone who touches your shoulder or knee while talking/ laughing. You may (cuz I don't know) have been conditioned in the past that when people touch you, regardless of how casual, they want "something" from you (ie, sex). A part of you will react reflexively to your current programming (ie, anger, distrust, "sex object mode", uneasiness...) but when you try to download the "new program" (ie, it was an innocent touch...no harm, no foul...) your mind will go into defending the old program and second-guessing You. It will say how you never know what's truly best and how last time you trusted someone you got yourself into trouble. It will say that everybody wants something and that nobody can be trusted...yadda, yadda

Your own mind will berate you into submission and you will be left "trusting" whatever defense mechanisms you've created over the years. You will ask yourself "if this(old programming) is working why are you so miserable" and your mind will say..."sure, we're miserable but we're safe..."

This is merely my opinion and personal experience, because I don't know you...However, someone once said that "...only the brave, love..." Nobody is 100% trustworthy because people are generally driven by their own self-interests, except those that have been abused. Abuse victims either become abusers, doormats or .....

.....whatever they WANT to be.....

You can have it your way, Mike! Just be honest when you see ANYTHING that reminds you of your abusers in others. Sometimes we see the abusers but we go into "caretaker" mode and try to fix them. This is because we are sub-consciously trying to re-play/reconstruct what happened w/ our abusers. THIS IS FUTILE. Don't try to save anybody! Fuk 'em! You have spent too much of your life trying to appease and help others, now it's time to be selfish and self-serving like everybody else. I am sure the river of guilt runs deep when it comes to taking care of yourself, first. But who cares! None of the critics came to your aid when you most needed them. You survived the physical abuse on your own, now it's time to deal w/ the psychological aftermath.

Don't worry, I've got your back!

Take care. Sorry this ends abruptly, I have to catch a bus...


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#35937 - 04/24/01 06:52 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Thanks Harmony,

That made a lot of sence. It is time to stop looking for a daddy and be a dad to myself. Fuc all of them.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35938 - 04/25/01 08:13 AM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I need to save myself!

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35939 - 04/25/01 08:55 AM Re: blame
HARMONY Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/09/04
Posts: 6
Yes! Yes!
Truly "unconditional" love can only be expressed from parent to child and vice versa (although I believe it is imperative for proper psychological growth for the parent to give it but it is not imperative to the parent's growth to receive it). When our parents fail to give us unconditional love it is futile for us to try to seek it in others. Even our own children. We missed it... We will sabotage every other relationship in our lives if we attempt to seek it from those other than our parents. That doesn't mean we can't learn to give it to our own kids but don't try to give it to a spouse, buddy or colleague because you will find yourself being a doormat. It's a love special and sacred between parent and child, a gift/right from parent to child.

Michael, at least the memories of your dad are positive and your longing for him is not out of psychological trauma but because he was truly a good dad and loved you. Hold onto that. Replay those fond memories in your mind. Don't fantasize about what could have been. Don't "wish that he could see you now..." but KNOW that he does.

I believe that the spirits of our ancestors, as Natives so eloquently put it, have an eternal knowledge of what it truly means to be human and that even when you are doing things that you would be embarrassed to have your ancestors know, they truly understand and NEVER judge. I am sure your dad is proud of your fortitude and emotional wherewithal. Don't think of your Earthly lonliness but that your greatest allie (sp?) is in Heaven.

Watching and protecting from afar....


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#35940 - 04/27/01 10:52 AM Re: blame
sean2day Offline
Member

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 6
Loc: USA
I couldn't agree more with Harmony- FUK 'EM. Harmony, what you wrote really resounded with me- thanks for sharing it.

Mike- you are on your way with this- it is so hard to break those old thoughts. Just turning the corner on the first one of those myself with the help of my therapist and it feels so good- feel almost human again after the last 5 months of pain and anger. I have a long way to go, but just knowing I can change is making a huge difference for me. Stay with it. I have read your posts around and you have such courage, strength and insight as well as a warm, gentle side. You can do it!

sean2day


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#35941 - 04/27/01 12:34 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Thank you sean,

Sometimes I learn the hard way, I am turning that around. My inner child needs to heal by my adult self. I am feeling better about things, and realize that it was not my fault
It is one thing to say it and another to finally feel it.

I was silenced, no more, I want out of the prision I was put into. I am free. I am worthy of love the way I am. There is nothing anyone can do to me. Enough pain, Fuck them all.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35942 - 04/30/01 01:28 AM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I was made to feel that it was my fault, my abusers could not handle taking what belonged to them. I kept making excuses to minimize what had happened. It was difficult as a child to deal with each incident. I did not have time to heal form one because the next one would come along.
This is sad, it makes me angry, sometimes I just want to kill them, and then there is forgivness which is a long struggle. One which I am working on.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35943 - 04/30/01 08:48 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
It is myself that ends up hurt, while others walk and do as they please. I pray they turn themselves around and stop hurting others.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35944 - 05/01/01 02:49 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Thanks for your support. I have reread your replies.

I did not do anything.
I was inocent.
I was a kid.

Again Thanks

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35945 - 05/07/01 08:57 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I forgive myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! It is not my problem anymore

I do not have to fix myself

I am not damaged goods!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35946 - 05/25/01 11:56 AM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I hope I believe I am not damaged goods anymore.

Home alone, doing very good today.

Life is an adventure, sometimes one in which I do not care for.

I still wake up crying when I am by myself at night. I know I am healing, but I am sometimes impatient with the pace I heal.

That is all for know.

a couple of my email buddies are not responding

Michael D. is one of them, I hope you are ok

please respond so I know how you are doing Michael

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35947 - 05/27/01 09:18 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
It is funny how men in general put so much importance in their jobs. What do you do? Is the usual question. I know I need a job to earn money, but not to feel important.
While I am looking part of me feels like something is wrong with me.

Somehow it is my fault.

It is only part of me that feels this way.

It was not my fault that I was abused, and I will find a job somewhere.

I will take my own advice and be gentle with myself. \:\)

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35948 - 06/06/01 10:16 AM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
so many mixed feelings about everything.

today I am consentrating on healthy things,

a walk outside, putting things away, sorting

through things. I am trying to stay present,

and not live in the past or futrue.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35949 - 06/06/01 07:48 PM Re: blame
Anonymous
Unregistered


Michael,

Some things that I have learned on the path to healing.

* No person deserves to be raped or abused.

* It is NEVER the survivor's fault. NEVER

* Every person posesses the capacity to heal.

* You handled what happened to the best of your ability. You really did do your best to protect yourself and whatever coping mechanisms you used are what helped you to make it through a really terrible situation.

It is so hard to not take almost any negative situation and in some way have it take you back to those feelings you had when you were sexually abused. For such a long time, everything that happened to me made me feel like a victim all over again and it was really awful. It will get easier though.

It is funny but a year or two ago, someone could have told me those things and I would have told them to piss off. I have learned slowly that they are all true. You will learn this too.

Peace,

Jim


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#35950 - 06/06/01 11:23 PM Re: blame
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Thank you Jim,

I have been learning so much in the past two or more years. Trying to learn in the past 10 yrs. Now I am learning. I used to try, now I do.

All the abuse still effects me, it does not control me. It is not me. It was done to me. Part of me feels like I am bad, but I am good.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#195470 - 12/16/07 04:17 AM Re: blame [Re: michael Joseph]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
it is not my fault, 6 years later

finally where I wanted to be

I smile so much more than when I was married

I was so depressed and unloved

theressa did not know how to show it or was she

unconditional, there were tons of conditions

ruining the adoption was the last straw

that was I 9,000 dollar check I wrote and I thought those two kids were mine, she broke my heart

she hurt me more than the abuse all together and after 26 people hurt me sexually that is not a small amt of hurt by my ex-wife

she wins the prize for hurting me

at least I am happy

for once in my life I have someone that loves me
I waited a long time to be happy

today I had a lot of fun
everyday I will have fun and enjoy what I have

I am so glad I found this place
it saved my life

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#195472 - 12/16/07 07:15 AM Re: blame [Re: michael Joseph]
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
Michael,

I'm glad things have worked out so well for you. It must be an interesting experience - looking back six years and seeing how you thought about things back then.

Much love,
Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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