I realized the word today...the label. Its the label that I missed probably out of subcontious avoidance. So many posts here in F&F and elsewhere describe the surprise we spring on our loved ones, employers, friends, etc. We did what we thought was right. We did what we thought we needed to do to survive. We were dealt the hand we have. We HAVE the hand we were dealt, and nothing more. Were we to lay-down and die? Some of us did that (some say 50% of us die). To survive, we need radical tachtics that allow us to move, act and survive similar to the normals. We have to become imposters. We become imposters in so many modes and settings. We are thought of as found-out imposters by our spouses and F&F as soon as we disclose.

I don't think its a character flaw, but its a label that stings terribly. It stings all those who are involved.

I'm sorry to all those I stung as the imposter I am. I had no right. There's no place for the rejects, and I think the millions of victims who don't disclose know this very well.

By golly, Robbie, this is annoying. Instead of looking at it this way, please consider this viewpoint:

first of all, who cares about employers? I've employed lots of people that didn't work out (lazy, etc.), and after a few days, their true nature revealed itself and they were gone.

But marriage. Think about this. The "deal" is, you live with me, I live with you, the REST OF OUR LIVES I have to rely on you, and you have to rely on me, for where we're going to live, eat, wear, drive, retirement if we get there, vacations if we have them, children, whether to have them, then how to raise them, taking out loans, paying back loans, socializing, not socializing, having sex and affection or not having those things.

You are trusting the person you're going to marry is going to be a good fit with you, or try to be, for THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. If you don't know who they really are, how can you make a sound judgment on whether they are the right choice for you?

I realize, I understand, you men are doing the best you can with the hand you were dealt. But to a non-survivor, the real point is, if they had known these really important things about you, maybe they would have kept looking, and put all their eggs in another basket. They're entitled to make that decision with as much knowledge as you have. Marriage is a BIG BIG BIG deal.

I don't consider you marrying survivors imposters. Just, you don't reveal all the salient facts.... It's even more important than someone who doesn't tell you that they're $150,000 in debt for credit cards, they've had 2 bankruptcies, and mom really owns their home. What a mess to walk into. And it happens!

If you're just dating, okay, but marriage is a whole different ball of wax.

CSA or any other big thing, needs to be shared before marriage.

And when it's not, divorce is typically the next step after the closet cleaning starts.

And besides, you're making a big assumption about being rejected. I've known my friend for a few years. He's hurt my feelings plenty. But I have not rejected him. I'm sure, sometimes he wishes I would.... I'm a real pain....

Maybe some will reject you. We are ALL rejected by someone. ALL of us. But some women, if they know, will have compassion and try to understand. Give us SOME credit.

Unfortunately, my friend continues to date - and marry - women he doesn't tell. Then, when he acts out, golly gee whiz, they're hurt and upset and angry and call him names, and then they leave.

And like you, he just wanted to live as typical and normal a life as he could. He didn't trust them. He should try it some time.

Maybe one day I'll convince him to trust one of these vanilla girls he dates. But part of it, I'm sure, is that he wants to be seen as a normal masculine man. And I'd want that, too. he doesn't want to be seen as damaged goods. But they need to know. And they will eventually anyway.

"...divorce is typically the next step after the closet cleaning starts."

I don't agree with this statement. Not everyone who discloses is headed for divorce. I would not leave someone just because they disclosed and I would not even leave someone necessarily because they have major problems after disclosing. Yes, in the end it is wrong to withhold some things, but I don't necessarily consider it wrong to withhold CSA. If the person is cheating or has a porn addiction or thinks they are gay, then yes I would feel betrayed, but if they simply didn't tell me they were abused and have issues as a result, I don't see that as some terrible thing. CSA is really hard to deal with, obviously, and I would hope a man would trust me enough to disclose. In any case, not every situation is the same and not every disclosure brings with it some terrible news of adultery or whatever. I just don't think we need to be lumping everything together...everyone's situation is different.

Oh, and Robbie...I don't think "imposter" is a good term to use. How about SURVIVOR? We use that term here for a reason. You do what you have to in order to survive sometimes. That doesn't make those things "right" necessarily especially if they hurt someone else, but like you said...it's an explanation, not an excuse. I get it. I get that survivors do the best they can most of the time. As long as a survivor allows me my feelings, I can generally handle it. The thing that would cross the line with me is not allowing me to feel angry or hurt. I can understand and feel compassion yet hurt at the same time.

Hope for Him,
I stand corrected.

Thanks,
D.

With pain on tap, I'm kind of stuck with this view right now. Pain like this is a blinder.

Here ya go, Robbie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af8mB9ABuJA

I have to agree with hope4him and by the way, awesome lyrics, awesome song! I think we are all 'imposters' to some degree. And a wife is apt to get lots of shocks post-wedding! But, then so does husband and none of it has to do with CSA!

Lots of victims of CSA or ASA or not able to face the harsh realities of what they went through until they are in their latter years, when life either crashes in on them because memories have come up and out, or when life slows down enough for them to listen to that voice that has been screaming and crying inside them for years.

For us, I feel it was no ones fault. I can not blame my mate for not telling me before we were married. We were both young, 'in love'and had not learned the value of such vulnerability. He was a tough guy and I only learned of things so gradually I wouldn't have thought to pull it all together at that time and call it anything but a difficulty in our already shaky marriage. We didn't have a label for it then nor were we educated in matters that pertained to CSA. I don't think anyone was until recently as men are finally speaking up in numbers to let the world know: yes, it happens to guys too! So, when we got married we weren't thinking: Now what do I need to tell my wife or husband -to -be that might damage us if I don't. We weren't thinking of that at all. If it was something that we had identified in our lives, I bet neither one of us would have been 'ready or able' at that time to 'tell anyone.' Unfair or not, those are the hard facts; the way we were, and we did not know the value of speaking out about it. It was to be hidden, a deep shame and pain that we thought no one would want to know. The shame might have been so deep with some that they especially couldn't tell their future mates. The trust thing takes time to build up to where one feels safe enough to disclose. Since some haven't even been able to admit it to themselves, it's no wonder that wives and girl friends wouldn't know about it.

I would daresay that was the case with you Robbie, unless I am way off base, that you were caught in that time segment where we just didn't know what we know now. If I am wrong, I apologize for any wrong assumptions on my part.

I'm not trying to give an excuse for not telling your mate everything, I'm just giving the facts of the time era and how things were 'back then.' Gosh, do I feel like I just aged myself!

I have only begun to identify my own issue and try to help myself because I too am a CSA person. See, I won't use victim cause of my pride and anger, and I won't use survivor because I have just began my journey into hell. I hope my husband doesn't book on me now because of the tremors and aftershocks that this is causing right now. At least, I am educating myself, learning from every possible place I can what happens to people like us...so I am going easy on myself.....

The long and short of all I'm trying to say is, Rob,you need to go easy on yourself! You have been through hell. It seems like things are never going to pan out for you at times, but they will! Hang on! The sun comes up everyday. It's like we get a brand new second chance each day.
Just my penny's worth:)

Waiting for Him to make all things new....!

I agree with Hope and Hannah. I wouldn't blame someone for not disclosing his SA to me before marriage. There are many men who may not even remember CSA until much later in life or maybe he does remember but it is too painful to deal with now. Not realizing the long-term impacts it will have (who among us are psychologists?), he compartmentalizes those feelings and puts them out of his mind. Someone who has done that to cope isn't to blame.

I don't like the analogy to someone who has run up tons of debt and fails to disclose that to a future spouse. Someone who has a spending habit like that has chosen to be irresponsible. Men who have suffered CSA or ASA are victims of someone else's cruelty. They have not chosen that path and should not be made to feel that they are tarnished goods that no one would want because they were abused and are still dealing with those impacts.

I know Disappointed retracted her earlier statement, but for the survivors, I think it's worth letting them hear another voice say that I don't agree that the obvious next step after disclosure is divorce. Hopefully the next step is counseling -- for both the survivor and his spouse -- so they can work through these issues both individually and together.

I made it SO far in life by dealing with "it" in my own ways. Why would I have disclosed to anyone when my methods were working. It appeard (to me) that I assimilated into the realm of the normals. So why in God's name would I scuttle the ship?

Effective deception however led me to a fauls sence of confidence I'm guessing. I went from my strongest point in life to an absolute dam-busting crash.

None of this positioning and rationalization matters. In the Judges own words: "I want to make one thing perfectly clear, this court finds Rob "at fault" for one reason. That is his failure to disclose the abuse and resulting conditions to his spouse."

He looked at my videos and found them "disturbing." He looked at my Healing Journal that they stole from me and published and found that deeply disturbing. He ordered me into a very very lengthly (months) psychologist exam (at my $6600 expense) and chose to ignore the positive report and yielded to wife's lawyer's request to surpress the report.

They published and distributed every note and detail of my hospitalizations. They all got to read about the freak's flashbacks when he "wets himself." Parra-fucking-legals I've never met or heard of, read these copies. People I'll never even know about read these hosp reports. The dirtbag lawyer left out my entire positive section that deals with forgiving the perps. Even THAT deliberate and criminal redaction did not phase the judge one stinkin bit!

A Guardian Ad-Litem drained me of more money than I can count. He prodded my children for abuse evidense. Strong-armed me into agreeing to let her move away with my kids. The fucker told me to "get a dog." GET A DOG!!!?? G E T A F U C K I N G D O G???????????? No one on this planet loves their children more than I love mine. They were my entire life. fk this

I'm here to tell any reader. "there is no justice." there is NO equity. there is no compassion in real life when it comes to leppers...and THAT is exactly what we are in societies eyes. If you doubt me...PM me for AMPLE scanned motions and judicial decisions of my destruction and bannishment from the normal's lives.

Sorry if I'm too dramatic.

Disappointed,

I waited a bit before replying to your comments. I needed time to reason with my knee jerk defensive reaction to your words and sit with my decision not to tell my girlfriend (thirty nine years earlier) about being raped a year prior by two men. I was deeply in love with this woman and never could I have imagined that the rape would have a negative effect on our relationship. It (the rape) was over with. A onetime horrific event that I’d put aside, as any strong man could, never to give room in my brain again it was finished! Never had I heard of or been up against such a thing how could I have known the impact that was to follow?

Should I’ve disclosed? Maybe, but then again I’d done nothing wrong so why would I have felt obligated to “reveal”? (Unlike the person running up thousands of dollars of debt)

Would it have been smarter? Absolutely, but I was nineteen, in love, never had sex, and hormones a flow. That’s where my mind was hanging – not thinking thirty years out. My brain hadn’t gone past the honeymoon night! If that makes me an awful and deceptive man in yours or anyone else’s book then so be it. But I’m still married to and deeply in love with that young girl I kept in the dark thirty eight years ago. (Divorce was not our only option) It took twenty years before I could let her in and that came about only after our daughter was raped it was then that my world come crashing down.

I’ve read a lot here in this forum from wives and partners of CSA or ASA’s telling of their hurts and wounds caused by the ones they love and are loved by. (Not to mention the real culprit, the abusers) You have every right to be angry and frustrated. Even the decision to leave (divorce) is understandable. If I had the option of “just leaving the rape”, which I thought I did, I’d do it in a New York moment. But then again I’d never abandon my daughter, even though she went through several years of anger towards me for not protection her. It shredded my core working through this issue with her. Never once could I blame her for what that predator had done to her and to her family.

Disappointed, I’m glad you felt safe enough to share your feelings and thoughts. I’m in no way trying to discount or discredit your words. Only to share mine. Sexual assault is a difficult and painful issue to work through, weighted down by misconceptions and deceptions. How can any of us victims and partners (who now themselves are victims) work through this without differing experiences and points of view. We are here to learn from each other as I have learned from you. Earlybird

PLEASE know, I'm not taking Dissapointed to task at all. Far from it. She is one of my closest friends here.

My inent is to clarify the realities in a real case. I know that my realities are not unique, thus I offer them in that spirit of caommon condition.

Robbie, your post breaks my heart. I am so sorry you have had to go through the abuse as a boy and the pain of the legal system.
This is my first post here. I have been reading these posts for months as I am always looking for answers and help. I am the wife of a CSA survivor as well as a sex addict. There is a lot of talk on here about whether the CSA should have been disclosed before marriage. I think if your "coping" behaviours include sex addcition, then you owe it to your future wife. Had my husband told me about his CSA before marriage and the effects were lack of trust or intimacy issues, I would have never run. However, when coping involves sex with hookers and anonymous men, and other such re-enacting, survivors have an obligation to either disclose these behaviours or avoid marriage altogether. Now there are more victims to their CSA: the spouses!

Please know I have compassion for you and if you would like to PM me, I would be more than happy to chat with you.

Thank you for all your candid posts. Reading how you feel and what you go through has helped me with my compassion.

thanks hope4him, hannah7 and sunnygirl for the support... makes me feel a little bit better and safer..

disappointed, i'm curious if one wanting marriage would be able to understand or even have a caring hint as to the extent of psychological trauma if told of abuse prior to marriage. With research telling us that 1 in 3 women will experience sexual assault in their lifetimes and the divorce rate being much higher should more women have told their potential husband their story before or after? That said, my loving wife of 40yrs, agrees with your position. She tells me she was pissed off early
in our marriage but GOD provides folks, keep the faith...........

Hi Freddie,

As I think I have written on here before, I recommend a couple of books on how to date. One is on the how and WHY of courting, "Mars and Venus on a Date," by John Gray. The other is "The Rules." Taken together, these two books, especially Gray's book, discuss how difficult facts like this should be handled during courtship.

Listen, I didn't mean to be harsh, and this was thoroughly hashed out a few months ago on another thread. And obviously, if you don't even REMEMBER abuse, it would be impossible to tell someone.....

If you know it affects you, and you fail to disclose before marriage, that isn't right. If you think it doesn't affect you, and you don't disclose, that's morally acceptable to me. I have weak ankles. I don't mention that. I really don't think they'll ever render me completely incapable of walking....

D.

P.S. Yes, women fail to disclose alot of things they should. Like how many times they've actually been married, their debt, blah blah blah.

Yes, difficult facts should, in theory, be handled before marriage, but there are so many things at stake in a survivor's mind and heart when it comes to disclosure. We all might "know" that something affects us but not the extent, or if we do know the extent, fear can be really powerful. I'm not saying survivors get a free ticket to do whatever they want with abuse as the "excuse," but it is way too complicated to just put people in two categories - "aware" and "not aware" of the effects. Heck, a lot of people may appear to not be aware when deep down they really are...how can we always know? In any case, there are a lot of women out there who do not see running away or divorce or punishment as the most logical step after disclosure.

Again, I must agree with hope4him, and that really is the issue here in my viewpoint: THERE IS HOPE FOR HIM IF the Wife or girl friend can have compassion and realize "Hey, this is who he is. I either stand besides him and help him walk through this, and forgive him his trespasses against me, or I tell him good-bye, I can't help you nor do I have the mental or emotional strength to.

Look, we are all different and react differently. Some people can't handle knowing about this stuff much less having to 'deal with it' on an everyday basis. If you can't, you can't; no shame in admitting the truth. Just don't get mad at the person who may have been putting the wrong band aids on his wounds OUT OF HIS WOUNDEDNESS, or who doesn't discover 'what his problem' was until much later in the marriage.

In a semi- perfect world I can see a girl seated next to the boy friend with her wish list so she can ask him her million questions before marriage-or even before the engagement--let's not go there unless he's a perfect TEN! lol

I do remember promising 'for better or FOR WORSE. His pain should be my pain and vice versa. I know of the depths of marital hardships. We nearly did divorce, and was the CSA a part of it? Both having endured this crap the answer is Yes But, we never knew it while we were going through these hard times.We were confused, hurting angry young people. I know my marriage is a miracle. We had every mark against us at the starting line!

But, you know, I hung in there; he's hanging in now for me. I think it's what marriage is all about. So, if he'd said to me, 'By the way, so and so did such and such to me and it can make me want to numb out any way I can..." I would say an even bigger YES, I will marry you. Maybe I'm just a natural nurturer. ???

I'm putting all this together now at the end of his storm. We had our 40th wedding anniversary this Feb. I only wished I knew then what I know now! Not to get out, but to be better equipped to understand some of his craziness and to have had more compassion for him.

Back to the justice issue:

Someone once said and I never forgot it: 'You won't see justice till Jesus comes!'That's a hellova wait! In the meantime, we see judges giving a gentle pat on the back of the hand to pedophiles, we see them back out on the street, we see more children put at risk. We see the adult rape victim victimized again by being asked to repeat their story over and over to the police or legal councilors. We see the ignorance, IGNORANCE--root word here being IGNORE--; let's just say it: those in power can afford to ignore the pain of the victim and pretend 'it' doesn't happen. They can even go a step further by victimizing the victim should he own up to his private pain. My goodness, how dare you be a CSA individual and not let the whole world know or at least warn them as to what they were in for because of it! What? You mean you didn't have all that worked out yet? Wow! 39 lashes and some large nails for him!

My heart goes out to you, Robbie, truly it does. I hear your story and it makes me so angry! If you see where I am from you have to know, the judges in this state got their degree from MacDonald's! So, we know the legal system sucks right now in our country. What to do about it???

Wait, pray and try to take a stand wherever you can. You deserve much better. You don't deserve to have your private hell published and read by 'curious onlookers!' That's a horrible invasion of your privacy! I've never heard of such a thing, but I'm not surprised at what a judge would do any more!

God bless you, Robbie. I pray this darkness lifts for you soon!

Robbie, the label is called 'LOVED'

Hugs x

I guess I'll add a fact that in large part explains my perspective. The reason I'm here is I met someone with this CSA past.

He's been married multiple times. As far as I can tell, he never told any of them, until they caught him enjoying his fetish.

Telling would have avoided these train wrecks. But he just can't bring himself to do it. He's dating someone now. He knows it will matter. He won't tell her.

Thank you Hannah. You've got a very accurate and real picture of all this. THAT is highly unusual. I appreciate it greatly.

BTW: I'm hoping to see your movie tonight.

I don't know how many people I've rejected out of fear of being found out. I don't feel like an imposter. Just half of a person.

I want to address this to 'Disappointed.

As he is your friend, can you encourage him to speak to a therapist? Sounds like he has repressed whatever happened to him and is in the 'just surviving mode' and acting out when the pressure builds up overwhelming him. Every person IS responsible for their actions. When we act out of our pain and end up hurting the innocent people who love us, we are responsible for that too. We are responsible to GET HELP also. So, I am not advocating he gets a 'free pass.' By the sounds of it, he needs to identify what went on and 'own' it and go to someone that can help him untangle the mess that he is right now.

Does he admit he's been abused? Does he understand that it is affecting him? Does he even think he needs help? Does he realize a lot of his broken relationships hinge on him being 'broken?'

I guess if the answer is 'no' to these questions, as his friend maybe you can at least let him know he is not alone in this. Recommending this sight to a guy might be the most powerful thing you can do at this point.

I hope you didn't take any of my replies as 'corrective.' I was simply sharing how messed up we were and didn't even discover what it stemmed from until well into our marriage. This is just 'our story.' Ideally it's great when the couple trusts one another and can unload their secrets. But coming from it even by a female perspective, I couldn't have formulated what was wrong. Both of us were just 'who we were' in time and space. We didn't have the internet (blessing and curse)where we could get help either, at least not the way it is today.

I will think of your friend and pray he can reach out and get the help he needs to get off his damaging merry-go-round. Best to you as you do what you can in understanding him. That's a blessing in itself.

Have a good day....

Hi Hannah 7,

LOLOLO

He sees a therapist almost every week.

He knows exactly what's going on, and why. I'm pretty sure he remembers all of it.

He's made up his mind about this, come what may.

Hello all. I haven't logged on an awhile. My boyfriend is triggered at this time and sometimes I tend to withdraw and quiet down, as I once again wrap my head around what is happening.

Robbie, I haven't replied much to you, but I do read and am moved plenty by your words. I just hope you understand that there are many supportive women here who would NEVER think of calling SURVIVORS imposters NOR rejects. I know you know this

I am grateful I came across a book that someone mentioned on this site entitled: Allies in Healing. Along with this site, this book has helped me tremendously in understanding his triggered episodes. I would like to share a passage from this book in hopes that it can help you couples struggling with the effects of CSA or even those contemplating starting a relationship in the future...

"Part of any relationship is dealing with the trials each of you goes through in life. Your trial right now is sexual abuse, but it might have been some other grief. Your partner could have become sick and died. You might have developed a debilitating disability. You might have lost a child or been unable to conceive one. There are many tragedies and challenges in life, and you don't get to choose which ones cross your path. At least with sexual abuse, you're dealing with a problem which can be, to a large extent, resolved...You can choose to fight or you can walk away. Walking away doesn't guarantee that you won't be thrown another wild card in the course of your life -- you will be, inevitably."

God Bless!

"Wait, pray and try to take a stand wherever you can."

That is wonderful advice.