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#35843 - 11/12/02 08:30 PM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Steve
Every time I see a documentary on TV about sex offenders I want to hide behind the friggin chair !

Their behaviours, reasoning and justification for their actions are just too close to mine for comfort.
And it just makes me wonder what tiny little influence makes the difference between a non offender and an offender.

If anyone knows - please tell me....

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#35844 - 11/12/02 10:21 PM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Dave:

The difference? Like you said, a tiny influence. A stroke of luck here, an influential friend there; a bad break here, one more unhealthy touch there. A thin line indeed.

No wonder it's so easy for us to lock up not only sexual offenders but other criminals. Maybe sometimes we're afraid if we have to look at them, they'll look too much like our reflections in our mirrors!...

Vic

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#35845 - 11/12/02 10:48 PM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Steve:

"Treating perpetrators is a necessity to prevent others from becoming victims."

You are so right! About that, and about how thin the line is.

It's good to hear something is helping perps to control themselves. Isn't that all that's expected of any alcoholic or addict? Or any of us?

Vic

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#35846 - 11/12/02 10:49 PM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
rax Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/02/00
Posts: 75
Loc: Newark, CA
MS Admin and Dr. Hunter,

Thankyou for that lovely post about the "real" mission.

I whole-heartedly agree.

An abuser on the Dr. Phil show about child abuse talked about the vampire syndrome, i.e. the fact that abused children often tend to grow up to be abusers.

So, when you look at an abuser, before you judge him, think once, that maybe he was abused himself.

And what is "abuse"? Is it only valid if we abuse another, and not ourselves?

I can say that I have never sexually abused another, but what about the abuse that I have given to myself?
What about smoking and killing myself ?
What about binge-eating ?
What about the self-prostitution?

Am I an abuser? Most certainly.

Someone once told me, "I have seen the enemy, and it is I"

So, How many people can say that they have never abused?

Im just glad that there are doctors and therapists and others who understand the pain of being abused and are ready and willing to help us.
These are our angels, our unsung heroes.
Lets just be thankful and appreciate their value.

regards,
rax.


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#35847 - 11/13/02 07:28 AM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Rax:

Fellow survivor, you make some really good points!

I don't know (hard evidence) and yet I know (discernment, "reading the signs") that my mother, my primary perp, was in some way sexually incested, verbally abused, emotionally abused, and probably physically abused as well.

Just like me. Hmmmm...

Now of course this is in no way justifies her abusing me, and I know you're not saying that it does. However it is, if nothing else, a warning to me about "the vampire syndrome" (never heard that before; fitting analogy).

Very insightful stuff there on self-abuse, too! Self-abuse is in general more socially acceptable or tolerable than "others-abuse." And it, again in general, does have less negative influence & impact on others, at least immediately & directly.

But none of us lives in a vacuum or is an island unto ourselves. What one person does inevitably affects those around him, who in turn affect those around them...This ripple effect may fade, or it may build into a tidal wave of overt & violent behavior in someone somewhere along the way.

Dave/Lloydy posted an interesting article about this in the public forums, about the aboriginal Indians in Canada and their communal way of dealing with sexual offenders. It points out that sex offenses are considered to be rooted in broken relationships within the community that need mending, not isolation. That's what we're talking about here.

If I abuse myself I'm not loving myself. If I don't love myself I can't love others--which means I might abuse them. If I abuse myself it affects my attitude & my actions, making them more abusive, even toward others.

Now I haven't repeatedly ran & bashed my head into a brick wall or anything. But I have over & over again smashed my head against walls of addiction & compulsion, obsession & loss of self-control.

Among other things, this has been corrosive of my relationship with my wife, including sexually. Is that a crime? No. Is it a sin? Yes! \:\(

IMNSHO, no abusive action, not even toward oneself, affects only oneself. Even if it did, it would still be abusive, and wrong.

"I have seen the enemy, and it is I!"

How many people can say they've never abused?

As another wise man once said (in the context of an act considered, at least in his time, sexually abusive; ie adultery), "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone."...

Let's see: alcohol & substance abuse, anger, adrenalin & other addictions & compulsions; fighting, hitting, berating, road rage...

As clearly as with someone in a glass house, I am in no position to throw stones...

Whether those things are now totally or largely in my past or not.

Rax, I too am very grateful for the therapist, doctors and support friends who help me move beyond abuse: the abuse perpetrated against me, and the abuse I perpetrate against others.

Thanks & take care

Vic

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#35848 - 12/01/02 12:30 PM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I firmly believe it is a learned behavior, and that those who were abused were abused themselves.
I also know the percentage of those who do go on to abuse is very low. They just end up hurting many children. So not all abused children grow up to be abusers, but those that do need help asap so they can be helped too.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#35849 - 12/01/02 06:25 PM Re: What Is The "Real" Issue?
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
MJ, I agree that probably all people who sexually abuse others were themselves abused in some way; tho not necessarily sexually, it's probably so in most cases.

I've been thinking about how much sexual abuse seems to be more about power & control than about sex. As is physical, verbal, emotional & other abuse. This is common thot when it comes to female survivors, and I don't think its any different for men.

As for me, I know it was about my mother taking out her hatred & resentment of men on me in every way she could. Sexually was just one of those. It was about her controlling me as a symbol of controlling men in general, becuz she felt controlled by them.

Having said that I am convinced tho I have no proof that my mother was sexually abused as a child.

The abuse stops here!

Thanks for the thot-provoking post, MJ!

Vic

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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