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#35775 - 09/05/05 01:02 PM innocence .........may trigger
sabooka Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 209
Loc: I would like to know also
As most of you know I am a new father. This event has changed many things in my life and has brought up new questions. One of them is the idea of innocence.

I was looking at my son and I got thinking what makes someone innocent. Is it not being to blame for something? Is it not hurting someone else? or is it something else?

and then I got to thinking about losing innocence. What does it mean to lose our innocence?

I took my first two definitons and put them to the test of losing them.

If by losing our innocence than we are saying we are to blame.

or

if we lose our innocence we say we hurt someone else.

Both if these things do not sound right to me. Yet we all talk about how being abused makes us lose our innocence. My question is: what does that mean? what do we lose? were we ever innocent to begin with?

I would like to know what others think

Jonathan

_________________________
My happiness is not dependant on other people's misery.

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#35776 - 09/05/05 02:13 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Losing innocence puts the guilt firmly on the victim, and never the abuser.

A child is born innocent, and it should not be broken or discarded in his formative years, they are his to grow up naturally and form his male identity.

It is a massive blow to lose it, he feels that he cannot look on adults with his innocence, because it was robbed by an adult.

That is the start of him losing trust in adults and friends who he should normally be able to turn to when he hurts. He starts to make barriers to everybody who has not gained his trust.

Sometimes the barriers are broken by those he placed his trust within, making him feel lost, and he secures his boundaries more tightly.

None of it was OUR FAULT, even though we have to carry the burden of guilt for many decades.

When we find a place such as this, then it sure is a relief to find others with similar feelings, and find out we are not really mad or bad.

It is so empowering to be able to break the silence and talk in open discussion about events that have been carried for so long, it lessens the weight or burden we carry.

I wish your son, a good life, and you will warm to his innocence, and you will see some of what you lost as he grows older, and I hope you can make him into a fine man.

He will pay you back, when he is older,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#35777 - 09/05/05 03:21 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
sabooka Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 209
Loc: I would like to know also
I understand the consequences of losing one's innocence. My question more about what exactly is innocence. I am trying to figure out exactly what the concept means.

I am sure it is different for each person. Since I wrote the post I have come up with another possible definition.

innocence is the not knowing of something or not knowing that something exists. It is a possibility but it is very close to naive and I am not sure they are the same things.

Jonathan

_________________________
My happiness is not dependant on other people's misery.

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#35778 - 09/05/05 04:08 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
alexey Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 1674
Loc: Moscow, Russia
For me, innocence is seen as an ideal equal to other life values. I feel sometimes that I am a monster, and I have a very strong guilt on my shoulders. When I am feeling this guilt, I am almost innocent. Why is it so? Because I make an effort to restore my good spirit. However, I would not see myself as a child in this moment, but I rather see myself as a troubled adolescent. Actually I do not feel innocent, but I am ready to be the one, and declare I possess no harm.

_________________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
E[:]|||||[:]3
(")_(")
--------
When you feel all alone and unhappy, turn to you Inner Child and talk to Him.
You will see He can comfort you like nothing else!

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#35779 - 09/05/05 05:13 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
I found a few meanings, I always thought it meant pure.

innocence
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: blamelessness
Synonyms: chastity, clean hands, clear conscience, guiltlessness, impeccability, incorruptibility, incorruption, inculpability, probity, purity, righteousness, sinlessness, stainlessness, uprightness, virginity, virtue
Antonyms: guilt

Main Entry: innocence
Part of Speech: noun 2
Definition: naivete
Synonyms: artlessness, candidness, chastity, credulousness, forthrightness, frankness, freshness, guilelessness, gullibility, harmlessness, ignorance, inexperience, ingenuousness, innocuousness, innoxiousness, inoffensiveness, lack, nescience, plainness, purity, simplicity, sincerity, unaffectedness, unawareness, unfamiliarity, unknowingness, unsophistication, unworldliness, virginity, virtue
Antonyms: experience

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#35780 - 09/05/05 06:31 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Thank you Jonathan for posting this thread. What a question!

You warned of triggers... and there were for me, but I needed to think about this.

Your 2nd definition was what got me, not too bad though thankfuly.

You asked "Is it not hurting someone else?" And I wept because of the years of rage I inflicted on my wife and daughter. It was not violent rage, but it was rage none the less and very hurtful I'm sure.

Since this is a national holiday here in the US, my family and I are home so I went immediately and discussed the subject with them.

God, I love them. They pointed out to me once again that the abuse and it's aftermath were not my fault. They reminded me again that the choices I made as an adult were still being made by a broken 6 1/2 year old child. They hugged me and cried with me yet again. They've been so good to me.

Then I came back to this thread a little while ago and saw the definitions posted by "reality2k4". The ones that caught my eye were "unawareness, unfamiliarity, unknowingness". That answered Jonathan's question in my mind. Before I was abused I had those qualities of innocence. So Innocense then is the state of being unaware, unfamiliar, and unknowing about the evil lurking around you just waiting to step in and take control of your life.

I'm reminded of the story of the "Garden of Eden". Some would call it a fable and that's OK. Either way the point is still valid. Adam and Eve were seduced by the serpent to eat the fruit from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" and in so doing learned what evil was whereas before they posessed the qualities of "unawareness, unfamiliarity, unknowingness". "Pandora's Box" was open and it could not be closed.

Could I have remained "innocent" after the abuse? Was I "innocent" after the abuuse? I'm not sure I know. All I know is that it messed with my mind big time. What I do know now is that I am loved and in the end I guess that is all that matters.

Jonathan, I wish you the best with your son. Love him, protect him, teach him, and be his friend. And praise the Almighty God that you have been able to begin dealing with your issues when he is little. It will make all the difference in your relationship with him. I can only look back and wish that I had been so fortunate.

John

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#35781 - 09/06/05 05:48 AM Re: innocence .........may trigger
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
Innocence is a bedtime story and prayers goodnite, never having to wake up to the nightmares that will not go away...

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#35782 - 09/06/05 05:11 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
Mike Church Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 3439
Loc: Toronto, Canada
When I look at the innocence of a newborn I see a person who is without guile, open to love and nourishment, a person who trusts by instinct, a person who has come into the world to live every day that is granted to him/her, a person who another can love without expectation, and most importantly a person who is like no other who has ever been born or will be born.

I really believe that betrayed trust dirties that innocence almost beyond repair. Unfortunately for some that is a fact. For others it seems like a huge pit to pull themeselves from. And the question is. "Why do it". Simple and so is the answer . "To get innocence out from under the stench".

_________________________
Mikey

IT REALLY IS OK TO STUMBLE. NONE OF US ARE PERFECT.

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#35783 - 09/06/05 09:23 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
When speaking of innocence in a child, that reflects to me the naive nature of a child. A child is not aware of the ways of the world in the way that an adult is.

A child is innocent when it looks on the world and learns about the miraculous things that surround us every day.

I remember going on long walks with both of my grandfathers and an uncle when I was very young. We used to walk through forests and countryside during all seasons of the year.

My innocence then was evident at the way I was overawed by the world around us. I knew the names of most plants, trees and flowers from a very early age. I also understood how many animals lived. This was because my grandparents/uncle only told me about the natural world around us.

I think the first time my innocence began to shrink was when I learned that one of my Grandfathers shot rabbits for food (although he never did this when I was around).

I lost my innocence at 12 years old when an adult (not a relative) decided to introduce me to activities that were outside my frames of reference. Activities that I had no way of comprehending what they really were. I said I lost my innocence - I didn't, it was stolen from me.

I once heard some of my current friends saying that 'I was so innocent'. Now they know the reality. *I was however innocent of what was thrust upon me - the perpetrator is the guilty one!

Best wishes ..Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#35784 - 09/08/05 10:12 PM Re: innocence .........may trigger
The Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Ohio, USA
Innocence really seems to be a cleanliness of mind, a simplicity, or an age-appropriate reference of the world around you. When you are young, you have your family who should love and protect you. Then, you have friends. Then, school, etc. Part of that innocence is our sexual innocence. Children come to learn about sex in their own time. Even when taught the mechanics in biology, they may not "grasp" through naivete or decision all that this means.

When we are abused, we lose the right to that natural progression and understanding in our own time and way. It is thrust upon us, and our innocence (and our right to it) is forever destroyed. We cannot undo, unlearn, or unknow what has happened even if we temporarily forget it for whatever reason. We have been cheated out of something special. That is a crime. We discover we are not like everyone else (or what we think everyone else knows or experiences) and I for one felt very isolated and alone when I discovered these things. The abuse was a disruption of the natural order of things. A disruption I carry with me always.

_________________________
The answers are in me.

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#35785 - 09/10/05 05:17 AM Re: innocence .........may trigger
andrew76 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 118
Loc: Florida
Innocence to me just clearly became so evident in a loved ones mind and in my life.As children we grow up from birth to when ever we learn of what love really is clearly as children we hug and kiss our parents because they show us love that only a parent can to let their children know that they are loved unconditionally no holds barred no strings attached no twisted or perverted thoughts in regard to how they are loved until the 1 moment the line is crossed and a child then learns what sex is or learns really the definition of adult love via an act/gesture kiss or a hug gone wrong then the child learns really what sex is and possibly before that time that child supposedly knew not what sex or love with conditions were.

In todays day and age their is sex being thrown all around in commercials/tv programs billboards phone books malls and yes even out on the street in how people wear provocative clothing.I will give you a great example of innocence a niece of mine just within the last two weeks learned what love was with conditions and learned what a kiss was the french way along with a hug to closely and with too much time that now it has made this niece feel dirty shamed won't talk about the situation that happened and the person that violated was a father who is my own blood brother and now is being charged with a sexual crime sex abuse of a minor.This has been so much on my mind that only tonight have I had the balls to talk about it after holding my niece that I love dearly and would die for and have been trying to protect.Now any move I make to show her that I love her such as a kiss on the forehead or a hug because of what I went thru with my own abuse I feel like I MUST ASK PERMISSION BEFORE I EVEN APROACH HER.

_________________________


Eye of tiger stares down perp,tiger teeth rips perp to shreds
to be abused kills the soul
to survive is to live the ultimate punishment

Knocking on hells door!!

To be silenced is an American amendment right violation,free speech

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#35786 - 09/10/05 07:25 AM Re: innocence .........may trigger
Dewey2k Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 3069
Quote:
Originally posted by The Seeker:
Innocence really seems to be a cleanliness of mind, a simplicity, or an age-appropriate reference of the world around you.
This is how I look at innocence as well. There is a natural progression that we are supposed to go through, a gaining of awareness of the world, from the basic physical laws as an infant and toddler to the love and caring of the parental relationship as a young child, to peer relationships as an older child, to more personal relationships as and adolescent, to intimate relationships as an adult.

All of these are building blocks for later stages. When events that are beyond the scope of our current awareness are brought into our lives, we are traumatized and damaged, in the same way as violence traumatizes us. It is violence visited upon us- a spiritual and cognitive assault for which we are unprepared.

The loss of innocence is always to be mourned.


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