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#355977 - 03/09/11 12:12 AM have to say something TRIGGERS
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1288
Loc: kansas
i have to say something that i know is a very sore subject amongst survivors. i also know that i could possibly lose many friends/brothers here from ms, but it's my honest beliefs and i don't want to hold it in anymore.

for the past couple of days there have been many talks in chats, threads here on ms and other male abuse sites that have talked about abusers and how they are all monsters, scum and have no chance at redemption....

this really saddens me and i have been severely conflicted over this. i feel like in some ways i'm betraying my survivor brothers with what i'm about to say.

*tears*... i truly believe that there are some abusers that can be redeemed. that they are truly repentant and truly change their lives around.

i know that there are many, if not most, that can never change and should be in prison for the rest of their lives. however, i honestly believe that there are some that can change.

i know this because i have a dear friend, that is a brother to me, that is doing this now. no, he is not the person that abused me, but he did abuse his stepdaughter.

he decided that he couldn't continue on living his life the way it is knowing what he had done. he turned himself in and has taken full responsibility for what he has done and has accepted all the punishment that he has received and still receives.

i was told by a counselor that if he is truly repentant then if i see him as my brother then i should support him in his recovery. however, if there is any sign that he isn't truly sorry for what he has done then i should let him go.

well, since 2006, when he told me what was going on and that he was going to turn himself in, he has accepted everything that he has gotten, prison term, and has taken full responsibility.

i have been supporting him in his recovery. i know that this is not popular amongst survivors. i know that this could cost me a lot of friends and even shunned. however, i honestly believe in my heart that it is possible. that there are some that can be changed around.

yes, this hurts me. yes, i'm very conflicted on this and feel that in a small way i'm betraying my brothers here.. please know that i still support all of you guys and i understand your feelings and have every right to them.

i'll understand if i lose friends or i am asked to leave ms. just something i needed to say... thanks

todd

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

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#355982 - 03/09/11 12:51 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Obi]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
I have a hard time with calling that "recovery." I can live with "reform," but not recovery.

I do not feel for him. If he fails, if he catches a speeding truck...I won't care one 1/4 ounce of dog poo. If I were to learn the SHE forgave him, I would hope for him to truly reform and find what he needs.

This is too painful....sorry, but I hold NO ill feelings toward you Obi. None at all. You can't take heat for someone else.

_________________________
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#355983 - 03/09/11 12:51 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Obi]
mrwhiskers Offline


Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 193
(((((todd)))))

_________________________
"Dont be scared... angels r here" Maria Fernanda (Mafer)

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#355997 - 03/09/11 08:43 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: mrwhiskers]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1288
Loc: kansas
robbie,

i can appreciate your thoughts and respect them. i'm surprised that you said you can't take heat for someone else, when it seems like that is what you are currently going through. this is why i feel i could take heat for it. ms has been a huge saving grace for me. i wouldn't be where i am at without ms and all my brothers here. that's why i'm so conflicted over this and still scared that i could lose all of this for what i believe.

yes, his stepdaughter has forgiven him. he didn't ask for it because he didn't think she would ever forgive him. she talked to him over the phone and said that she forgave him. now, whether she truly has or not, i don't know.

i'm not saying that to persuade anyone. i just know that it's possible. i truly believe that MOST abusers are severely sick and should be imprisoned for life. however, i also believe that there are some that are truly repentant and are trying to do the best that they can to right the wrong they have committed.

i don't think they deserve special treatment. i do believe that they should get the punishment they deserve and so on....

idk.... this really hurts me too and i feel like i'm totally alone in this... i hardly ever talk about this, especially here, out of fear....

i feel like a hypocrit for boosting the courage of others here in helping them to face their fears and i couldn't bring myself to even discuss this because of fear... i always stayed silent... most of the time able to shrug it off. however, it's being brought up a lot lately in various forms and i've gotten triggered over it the past couple of days.

i don't want to be afriad. i don't want to be a hypocrit. as much as it's tearing me up inside, i didn't want to hold it in any longer....

and, like i said in my original post, if i lose many of you guys as friends/brothers, and/or get asked to leave ms, as painful as it is i will understand...

todd

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

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#355998 - 03/09/11 08:49 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Obi]
mrwhiskers Offline


Registered: 02/22/04
Posts: 193
((((((todd))))) Im not good with words and this virtual hugs might not seem much ..... but I understand u.

Gabriel





Edited by mrwhiskers (03/09/11 08:54 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
"Dont be scared... angels r here" Maria Fernanda (Mafer)

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#355999 - 03/09/11 09:10 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Obi]
wayne9 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
Obi, Thanks for your honesty. I am a struggling Christian and believe that anyone should be forgiven if they truly have a repentant heart. I know as you stated that some will not agree but this is how I feel.


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#356003 - 03/09/11 09:40 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: wayne9]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
I'm glad she forgave him. I hope he honors her needs and wishes in every way (financial support, staying away...whatever).

As a Christian (albiet rough around the edges and still reeling from the trauma), I must observe that forgiviness.

In my "Forgiviness" thread (yes, I forgave the four older boys) I added: "you can't truly forgive someone....or you DON'T truly forgive someone, until you also wish them well. However, the locus of forgiveness is with her and God. I can only wish all involved true healing.

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

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#356005 - 03/09/11 09:53 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Still]
wayne9 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
Very well said Robbie........


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#356008 - 03/09/11 10:15 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: wayne9]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Obi my dear friend,

I admire your words and wisdom. I also believe you have little to fear from your bothers here on MS. Youíve done a remarkable job at developing wonderful and supportive friends on this site. Some might take a different slant on this issue but few will abandon you over such differences.

As much as I hate the two men who raped me and refuse to ďforgiveĒ them I believe nearly all persons are capable of regret for past actions and have the ability to change. Iíve resisted naming my attackers as monsters. I have even pushed back on that term when some would refer to them as such when responding to some of my posts. What those two men did was monstrous but that is a completely different thing. They are capable of seeking help and working at change and yes, even deserving of forgiveness. From whom that again is a different issue as well.

Like always you have my support and undying loyalty.

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
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#356014 - 03/09/11 10:57 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: earlybird]
TheBobcatAgain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 506
Loc: AZ, U.S.A.
My dear brother Todd,

Rest assured, buddy, you will not be banned from MS, nor will you lose your close brothers over this.

Even though abusers are looked upon as the lowest form of human being, they are still people. As survivors, we NEED to get mad at abusers and say unkind things about them in order to help us in our recoveries.

Some of us will always NEED to frown on abusers; and some of us will learn to forgive abusers and try to see them as human beings again - to judge them based on their hearts on not on past actions.

I don't believe there is a correct or incorrect way to feel on this issue. It's only about what each of us needs for our recoveries.

You are not a hypocrite, Todd. You are a very caring and understanding survivor. Thank you for bringing this topic to our attention, buddy. smile

Your loving little brother, as always,

Bobcat

_________________________
You don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

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#356018 - 03/09/11 12:39 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
You're not alone Obi. I know two abusers who like the one you know, have owned full responsibility, accept everything they deserve for their horrific crime and are genuinely remorseful.

Both abide by all that is put on them because of their actions, because they know that, forgiveness or not, there are consequences that will last their lifetime.

Forgiveness is not saying, "It's ok", it's saying I choose to not let what you did to me own and control me anymore.

Forgiving really doesn't effect the other person at all. It only effects me. The best analogy I've ever heard, I heard just this past weekend, from a man who when he was 7, was locked in a closet for an entire week and repeatedly sexually violated by his two cousins who were 16 and 17 at the time.

He said this, "Un-forgiveness is like, drinking rat poison, and then getting angry that the other person doesn't die." He went on to say, that it doesn't make what they did ok, it will never be ok, and he will never have a restored relationship with them because of what they did.

What it really means, is I choose to let it go, for my benefit, it doesn't hurt or help the abuser at all.

I know some here won't agree, and that's for them to decide, but for me, I try to forgive those that hurt me, and when I see someone, like the two men I know who I know, I can forgive them too.

I hear you Obi. I understand the feelings you describe. Been there and sometimes still am!


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#356021 - 03/09/11 01:11 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: JustScott]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 727
Loc: NJ
This is a very difficult topic and can and does easily divide people, with that said I suggest everybody think a bit before posting.

To try and sway one persons opinion on the topic can be futile..as they are personal opinions.

Respect for peoples here..and allowing people to voice their thoughts is crucial...one shouldnít feel that MS is not for them because they feel a certain way.

My personal thoughts are, this is a very tough, sore topic for me....I donít like perps, and have trouble with offending survivors, Iím always on the side of survivors. To some who think that teens acting out is ďlessĒ of abuse, or that person lacked understanding of what they were doing...minimizes the abuse I live with, and the lifelong effects. that there is good in people is of no concern for me..I donít want to know or be friendly with somebody who hurt a child for any reason.

Abuse is abuse, we survivors live with the consequences...I donít have time or energy to think about the perp or why he did what he did (even if I do think about it, its just a waste of time)...he did it for whatever reason..none will ever be good enough for me..and he can do good for the world..and yet he killed a part of me....thatís what I see. Even if he was perped first or the likes...it does not change what happened to me, nor my hurt or pain. My time is focused on healing and helping others find and move down their road.

Everybody has the right to their opinions, doesnít mean we are gonna agree.

I will not debate any of these thoughts on this thread, these are just my opinions...you donít have to accept them...but I hope you respect them as mine.

H

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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#356031 - 03/09/11 03:49 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
Anthony39 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 345
Loc: Montreal, Canada
Obi,

I don't really give a rats ass about my abusers. One is dead the others I don't care to know where they are or if they are repentant. But that's between me and them. This is how I feel about it. As far as other abusers , I believe it's a pathology, no amount of prayer will modify that behaviour. I don't believe in evil or monsters because that gives them some kind supernatural attributes that doesn't make them human anymore. Most of them I'm sure live pretty normal unremarkable lives. I feel strongly about this as we all do , because of our experiences.
That being said you bring a good point. Not talking about this is not going to make it go away. We only hear about them when they get caught. I think that it is important to go at the root of the problem and make sure that there is a good social structure at the base that can protect children from becoming victims and others from becoming perps. A lot of us might have been spared a lot of trauma.

So no I don't think you should worry about being shunned or kicked out. You have your opinion and your experiences. I have mine. I may not agree with you but i'm listening and it's a dialogue and something no longer taboo. It opens the door to communication and that's all good.
Thanks for bringing this up.

Anthony

_________________________
Look up and not down; look forward and not back; look out and not in; and lend a hand.
E. E. Hale


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM213aMKTHg

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#356034 - 03/09/11 04:20 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Anthony39]
just me Offline


Registered: 05/27/09
Posts: 193
No two ways about it...this is a tough topic for many here!

I don't have anything intelligent to add...

I only post this message to offer kudos to those who have shared their perspectives with respect for others and with an understanding that there are different perspectives. Also to acknowledge that many here may feel pain or confusion by some of the feelings expressed.

Jm




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My Story

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#356035 - 03/09/11 06:00 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
Given all you have been through Grandson, If you can be his friend and he is working at turning his life around, then I think that you are growing more than you know. It takes a lot to do that. And everyone is not in the same place, so I would not expect everyone to do what you are doing.

MJ

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#356095 - 03/10/11 09:48 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Obi]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Obi
well, since 2006, when he told me what was going on and that he was going to turn himself in, he has accepted everything that he has gotten, prison term, and has taken full responsibility.


I have been thinking about this thread...rather, this reality represented by words on our screens. I've been struggling with identifying why I feel so completely uncomfortable and freaked by this. I went back for many re-reads and some prayers about this. My conclusion, this guy has found true character (and you can tell him I said that). During the abuse, he found a hole in his character but he patched it by standing up and speaking his truth of sin.

What was freaking me out was the idea that he's a "STEPdad." As a newly divorced father of two youngsters, I put myself in the place of their biological father...whether he is a dick, drunk or dead, I see myself in his shoes. The scenario scares the living blood out of me. I have actually cried over this case and seeing my children in this scenario. I am still mourning for the stepdaughter and fearing for my own kids. I struggle to imagine my actual response to an abuser, but I fear I would not live up to God's expectations.

This just all-around sucks!

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

Still's Globs

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#356098 - 03/10/11 10:01 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
Todd, my brother ...

You are more of a man than i am...I'm not there yet...i understand and support you 100%

Forrest

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#356103 - 03/10/11 10:20 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Darkheart]
Hopefulone Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/08/11
Posts: 117
Loc: Ontario
My abuser is dead. He died without ever facing what he did. I don't know if I was the only one or if there were more. I do know that the whole time he was raping me he continually said, "you're so pretty. You're just so pretty." and when I hear that in my memory...when I hear that repeated mantra running through my head I think he may have been saying it apologetically...as in, "god help me, I'm sorry...but you're just so pretty." sometimes I don't hear it that way...but other times I do...I hear the "you're so pretty, you're so pretty." as "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." and it just confuses the fuck out of me. While he was viciously attacking me, was he apologizing? Was he telling me he couldn't help himself...that he was sorry but he just couldn't help himself? I always had mixed feelings. I have yet to find anger...other than anger towards myself. Is it wrong to have sympathy for a rapist who thinks it's okay to shove foreign objects where they shouldn't go? I mean, he couldn't help himself, right. He needed to do it.

I'm wounded. I am compassionate towards him some days and I hate myself on other days. I just don't know where I stand on this issue...because I can't find the anger that I should have against this man. I was afraid of him for far too long. Even when he died, I thought he could still get to me. How sick is that. I saw the sorry in his lecherous words. The sorry behind the hunger that would not be stopped. But do I want to forgive him? I can't even forgive myself. How am I going to forgive him?



Edited by Hopefulone (03/10/11 10:22 AM)

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#356106 - 03/10/11 10:57 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Hopefulone]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6367
Loc: 2 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: Hopefulone
I hear the "you're so pretty, you're so pretty." as "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry."


I read it as a dropping or shielding of fault for him, not a shift of fault for you to carry.

I got: "How do you let us keep doing this to you?" That one eats at me about 5 times a day.

Wriggle as they will...the damage to us is the same.

_________________________
Jesus Loves The Hell Outta Me!

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#356108 - 03/10/11 11:25 AM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Still]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
Todd it ain't directed to you in any way.

I just can't feel any compassion for a perp, a felon, a rapist, an abuser of children, a molestor, a pedophile. Each of those terms is simply revolting.

Don't hurt kids don't hurt people.........period.



Edited by kb8715 (03/10/11 12:06 PM)
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#356112 - 03/10/11 12:19 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: kb8715]
jurek Offline


Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 130
Loc: New Hampshire
Please excuse me for playing the philosopher here, but aren't there at least two different aspects of forgiveness here?

One is acceptance of what happened - some sick person(s) acted out their pain by hurting a child in a way that caused immense suffering. By accepting that it happened and giving up trying to figure out why it happened we who were victims can start to move on and heal. We can show everybody compassion in a way and that is good FOR US.

But then there is forgiveness in the sense of taking the offender back into society, and that is something much different and a place I can't go and frankly don't ever want to go. To accept someone back into the fold like that is to remove their responsibility for what they did. Hurting children deliberately, whether you are acting out in doing it or not, is just wrong and EVERY adult who does so has by doing so declared their contempt for humanity. And that's not something you can take back. Maybe god, if he she or it exists can do that be we humans can't and shouldn't ever be asked to, no matter how sorry the perp feels. Their act of contempt cannot be undone. Tough luck, no redos.

That's my take on it. You may agree or not.

Todd, this is a very difficult topic you have brought up and please don't beat yourself up over it too much. We all need to hash this stuff out as people more keenly attuned to everyone's pain than most.. So I thank you for bringing it up.

George

_________________________
-jurek

Jurek ogorek, kielbasa i sznurek, kielbasa uciekla, Jurek do piekla!


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#356114 - 03/10/11 12:32 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: kb8715]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1288
Loc: kansas
cry

this is tearing me up inside.....

this internal battle that is going on with that survivor side of me and the loyalty i have for my friend/brother.

i read your replies and i feel that pain. i know that pain. it's been with me too. i respect/care/love you guys so much that it pains me to read your hurts and pains coming through. it's like i went through it with you guys too.

then i see my friend/brother who is doing everything he can to right the wrong. the same guy who has treated me golden ever since i've known him. the guy that has treated me better than anyone else i've known. the guy that has always been there for me both day and night. the guy that has protected me. took care of me. been there for me when nobody else would, including my actual family. the guy that was at the hospital next to me the whole time i was there when i had surgery and nobody else was there, not even family.

this is my struggle and i feel all your pain here and feel like i'm betraying that pain because i'm supporting him too.

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

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my vlog

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#356117 - 03/10/11 01:18 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: Obi]
1.healing Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 261
Loc: NW Ohio
Dear Obi,

For what it's worth from a guy who struggles often with the fact that his perp is an unrepentant, selfish, coward. Had that perp taken real responsibility for what he did to me, did all the work necessary to stop his behavior, made amends to me and my family and his family. I would still never forget what he did to me, but I could forgive him.

Some people are capable of redemption, which sounds like your friend, and some (probably most perps actually) are not. They like we are not all the same. Seems to me any person who has been repentant and has shown it through positive change, has the right to be forgiven and supported by a loving friend. If that person ever re-offends then you would naturally reevaluate the situation.

I hope you can resolve the conflict that's tearing you up inside and come to peace with it. Perhaps you'll want to talk with your friend about this too. That could reinforce for him the importance that he remain on the high road, if he ever feels a moment of weakness.

You have a good heart, I hope it stops hurting soon.

Gary

_________________________
"It's never too late to be what you might have been."

George Elliot

"You cannot find peace by avoiding life."

Virginia Woolf

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#356123 - 03/10/11 01:53 PM Re: have to say something TRIGGERS [Re: 1.healing]
RecoveryReady1 Offline


Registered: 12/05/10
Posts: 433
I always thought I had this special kind of sensitivity to people.
An ability to respond in a compassionate way to almost any situation, with objectivity and insight....
This was something I prided myself on.....secretly I thought of myself as above others....in this way....
But having been here, and listening to others.....I am suspecting that it's a result of the suffering.....still I am amazed at how advanced people here are at being in the middle of an emotional hurricane....and responding with such poise, compassion and insight....way beyond me......and not just some people here, but most....
This is my comment on the thread.....I have nothing to say really about the issue put forth....at least right now...
As always, all the best
Steve


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