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#352245 - 01/28/11 06:27 PM Undue Empathy.
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
I've been reading through a few posts in the US & World News forum and frankly I'm getting a bit fed up of people here assuming all these wrong uns have been victims of abuse themselves. So what if they are?
Bollocks mate.
If you are a victim of child abuse that is tragic and unforgivable and my heart pours for you, but if you then act out by going on to abuse another child, f**k you.
I myself was seriously sexually abused as a child; I'm sure (certain, in fact) that I have acted out as a result of this abuse, but NEVER in a million life times would I harm a child the way I was.
There is ALWAYS a thought before an action-whether you consciously notice it or not; that's just physiology. One thing doesn't simply LEAD to another. To put yourself in a situation where you are able to abuse a child is a complicated series of deliberate and thought out decisions and actions. If you abuse a child having been abused yourself then you possess NO soul let alone any capacity for empathy so wtf is up with people offering YOU any?


I am so proud of some people's here ability to look deeper into a set of circumstances, to understand even if they can't relate; it's intelligent and healing and I tip my hat to you, but others really need to get a grip. If what you need right now to recover is to believe there's a meaning behind everything then craic on, but sooner or later you're just going to have to accept a rock is sometimes just a rock.


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#352279 - 01/29/11 07:56 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
expom Offline


Registered: 01/06/09
Posts: 123
Loc: Australia
Hi Hailzes

I so agree with you. The American bureau of stats in the mid 90's did a survey of the perps in US jails and 52% said they had been abused as kids themselves - THAT IMPLIES THAT 48% WEREN'T.

A few months ago I sat next to a survivor buddy of mine in court as he faced the perp who violated him as a child. The perp's senior counsel stated "for the record" that he, too, had been the victim of sexual child abuse. I just couldn't help myself. I blurted out - loud enough for all in the court to hear - "Then he should know better!" The court bailiff raised an eyebrow in dissapproval; the counsel turned and scowled at me; the court guard didn't move except to smile and the judge - G_d bless her - scribbled something down and then quoted me in her summing up.

The perp got no undue empathy - he got three years. The judge got applause - we had been told to expect a suspended sentence.

ADen

_________________________
I endured all my yesterdays. I prevail in all of my todays. I exercise my right to be able to enjoy my tomorrows. I choose not to do it alone.

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#352302 - 01/29/11 12:53 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: expom]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6376
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Well done. You un-did empathy.

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#352313 - 01/29/11 03:49 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Still]
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
@expom. Huge kudos from me for voicing something that appears to be frowned upon from most...your unwillingness to bite your tongue in the name of political correctness (or whatever the excuse is) brought 3 years of safety to that monster's community. Be proud of yourself.
@Robbie Brown. Receiving the distinct impression that your response is bathed in sarcasm. So be it. But as a survivor I will always be in your corner regardless of your personal feelings toward my opinions.


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#352320 - 01/29/11 05:18 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6376
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
I have NO empathy for those who would lean on their past as an excuse for crime.

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#352330 - 01/29/11 07:11 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Still]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
I don't think that's how Robbie meant it, Hailzes. Correct me if I'm wrong, Robbie, but weren't you referring to the court scene expom described?


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#352332 - 01/29/11 08:17 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: expom]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6376
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
Originally Posted By: expom

The perp got no undue empathy


I agree with this as I head to family court, and being blamed for being a victim.

But always remember, our courts are not courts of justice...they are "courts of law."

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#352380 - 01/30/11 01:39 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Still]
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
I do apologise if I misinterpreted the tone of your response Robbie Brown; it's sometimes hard to gage in text smile


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#352384 - 01/30/11 02:19 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6376
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
No apology needed. "Judicial empathy" is (IMO) judicial forgiveness...at least in practice. The court, not being the victim, is in no way the one whom can be doing any forgiveness. Forgiveness is in the hands of God and the victim. Otherwise, we are all welcome to "feel badly" for the perp...but just don't let the TV or News Paper tell me we ought to feel badly. The nuclear explosion you hear will be my head.

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#352550 - 02/01/11 03:55 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Still]
wayne9 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
One question! Do you feel the same toward a victim who then does the same with a younger child when he himself is still a child. Can you really say that a 15 year old who was abused for years is guilty. Does he really comprehend what damage has been done to him or what damage he is doing?



Edited by wayne9 (02/01/11 03:58 PM)

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#352568 - 02/01/11 07:12 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: wayne9]
SamV Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/13/09
Posts: 5942
Loc: Talladega, Alabama, USA
Undue empathy is a contradiction in terms.

Empathy is described as feeling another's pain in one's heart.
Without empathy, there is no humanity. Well, there maybe humanity, in fact there are several instances were history enlightens us as to "subjective justice" without empathy, and they are looked upon, by most, as horrific.

The abused is due immediate empathy. The abused needs services, a safe environment, time, compassion, and peers to work through the myriad of emotional, mental and physical issues compounded by abuse.

The abuser needs empathy as well as these services. Unless the intention is to destroy the life that has wronged, this person MUST have access to resources that encourage rehabilitation. Humans, all humans, need to be understood. Enabling an abuser is unacceptable. Permitting an abuser to continue abusing is unacceptable. Being lenient on an abuser is at the discretion of control. Allowing future abuse is unconscionable.

The difference in the services offered is a matter of timing. The abuser MUST face the consequences of their action. They must be investigated, arrested, processed, and have their day in court. They must be subject to objective justice. It is then that that human can get the help they need, the support and rehabilitation they justly deserve. No one should ever be left out.

"Objective justice" is the ability to process the crime, empathize for all parties, act accordingly to protect the victim(s), punish the wrong, and offer rehabilitation to the wrongdoer. How can a society expect a "common sense" without being willing to offer a common standard in every situation? If we as a society look to punish each other, then where do we draw the line at in the judicial process?

Objective justice, then, is balanced empathy, due to all humans.

As a survivor, I will be objective in my control and in my judgments, that with the judging that I pass on to others, I may pass when it may be my turn.

Sam

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MaleSurvivor Moderator Emeritus 2012 - 2014

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#352642 - 02/02/11 05:04 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: wayne9]
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
Yes I do say he's guilty. Your hypothetical 15 year old is old enough to have some comprehension of the harm he has experienced and the harm he is inflicting. I was 10 when my abuse started and I had some feeling then that it wasn't right; the vast majority of the survivor's stories here acknowledge a time where they became aware that what was happening wasn't right.
He doesn't need the complicated interpretation of the CSA effects that people here have achieved; doing what he's doing requires manipulation and privacy, both of which he's exercised successfully to go on to abuse another child.
I would say though that a child perp with a similar history deserves alot of help.
It's heartbreaking.
And to clarify, my initial post was an emotive response to a story where the perp was an adult. That makes things very different. Though maybe not for the victim.


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#352643 - 02/02/11 05:15 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
"undue empathy" isn't a contradiction.
Empathy is the ability to put one's feet in another's shoes. It's a by-product of our higher brain functions.
Without empathy I agree our society would be a pretty poor excuse for a civilisation.
Abusers do not exercise their empathic ability. In fact, they deliberately bypass it so as to justify their actions...minus the sociopaths out there; that's a different kettle of fish. But I understand what you're saying, the court system (and the rest of us) must do what these abusers can not, treat everyone to a standard we ourselves would like to be treated.
I clarify that my initial post wasn't in response to any court-like setting. It was a personal opinion. Obviously if I were a judge I'd have to be objective but I would feel the same.


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#352648 - 02/02/11 05:49 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
wayne9 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
I understand your thoughts but also have to look at the one's like myself who never was treated badly. I thought what was happening during that part of my life was something special that only few boys got to experience. I don't think I would have thought it would have been bad to do the same. I know when I was around the age of 14-15 I had no clue of the awful effects and problems I would endure later in life. And I think its possible that some who did abuse as children to other children would never have done so had they knew what they really were doing. Also, and I know this will rub some the wrong way......I try not to judge everyone by what my personal thoughts are.....after all they are just my thoughts. Not everyone gonna see it the same way. Maybe others here should think that way!


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#352781 - 02/04/11 10:21 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: wayne9]
sugarbaby Offline


Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 329
Quote:
If you are a victim of child abuse that is tragic and unforgivable and my heart pours for you, but if you then act out by going on to abuse another child, f**k you.


Exactly!


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#353146 - 02/08/11 11:22 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: sugarbaby]
Shawushka Offline


Registered: 01/05/11
Posts: 128
Loc: VA
Wow. I'm gobsmacked. As a matter of fact there's a large part of the OP I couldn't agree with less.
This kind of rigid mindset is exactly the reason why perpretators are ostracized instead of receiving help and therapy. This is the reason why potential perpetrators don't dare to seek therapy, this is why victims don't dare to tell their story.
We are humans and this dogma that one is always in control of one's deeds is total b.s. If we all were so much in control of ourselves and there would be no csa, there would be no murder, no drug users, etc. etc.

Being a victim I do understand your anger, but imho we shouldn't go down the road of retaliation.


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#370537 - 09/19/11 08:27 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Shawushka]
Hailzes Offline


Registered: 01/21/11
Posts: 25
Loc: 161
Where have I mentioned retaliation? Don't remember asking you to grab a pitch fork and form a mob.
I am zero tolerance on the excuse I was abused thus I abuse; I feel these perps more than any other would know how bloody evil what they're doing is.

You know what, I'll stop now because I know I'll just be trying to change your mind. Everyone's got their own opinion.


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#370561 - 09/20/11 11:11 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
katie1205 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/03/11
Posts: 48
When Adam would play his cards on me, I would point out Oprah Winfrey was sexual abused by just about every male in her life until she went off to college and she has gone on to achieve greatness and help so many people.

I was not sexually abused by my family but every other way and landed in a foster home. I later was sexually abused by men because I have serious boundary issues. I have never abused anyone. Or played my cards and I have at least 4 aces.

I told Adam in the poker game of like he was playing a pair of twos. I had worked with hemophiliacs with AIDS from plasma who had full houses and never played them EVER unless blood came into a situation and they had to say something. There are a lot of "card players" in life and they annoy me. Seriously annoy me.

Two wrongs ever equals a right. I don't care what was done to you. It is no excuse to go on to do things to others.


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#370815 - 09/23/11 08:32 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: katie1205]
zraver Offline


Registered: 09/23/11
Posts: 31
Loc: Conway, Arkansas
Guilt requires awareness, otherwise your punishing someone who doesn't even know there was a crime. As adults we are presumed to know the law and presumed to have control, but a kid isn't. I would try and save the 15 year old unless it was too late (via testing).

I know I don't have any anger towards the boys who did what they did to me. They didn't act with malice, they didn't mean to hurt me but they did. So I forgave them years ago and moved on. Only I just found out I never forgave myself.

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#371007 - 09/25/11 05:29 AM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
whome Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/07/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Johannesburg South Africa
Hi Hailzes

I agree with a lot of what you say. Victims who become perpetrators, what can I say. The hatred I feel for them is immense, I cant even talk to their spouses. How could you even consider staying with a sicko like this. There is no justification.
There is someone whose husband molested, and I felt physically sick when I read this. They however redeemed themselves by tossing his sorry ass into the wilderness. (should have been an incinerator)

How can anyone, who has been through what we have, go on to inflict that on another innocent child. SICKO.

Could I become a killer, ...Possibly..If I meet one of these sickos.

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Survivors Supporting Each other
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#371033 - 09/25/11 05:00 PM Re: Undue Empathy. [Re: Hailzes]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Fact is most if not all perpetrators of sexual abuse against children were victims of SA at some point themselves. However, like you say this should not have any bearing as a mitigating factor when it comes to how society deals with perpetrators. On the contrary, effective sex offender treatment doesnít allow perpetrators to get away with bemoaning their own history at the expense of taking responsibility for their reprehensible behaviour. The minute an offender starts doing so s/he is called on it and reminded why they are there, namely for what they did to others, not to make excuses for themselves. Like you say excuses and rationalizing on behalf of offenders is what led them to come to a calculated and deliberate decision to abuse others. This is the exact reverse of the therapeutic challenges that the rest of us survivors who wouldnít dream of abusing others experience. In my survivor support group for example Iím constantly challenged to find compassion and forgiveness for myself, which is very hard to do since it feels like what happened to me is my fault. The stark contrast in treatment is illustrative of the need for different approaches to treating abusers vs. non-abusers with histories of SA.

On another note I want to comment on what you said about acting out. This is something that I believe all survivors have in common to some degree. Iíll admit that I have acted out, with drinking, drug taking and with sexual behaviour that was unhealthy and unsatisfying (for me), as well as purposefully neglecting myself physically, emotionally and spiritually in order to punish myself further, but never anything against others. I wouldn't dream of it, and if I did I'd hope that I had the courage to go get help before hurting someone else, which shows I know the fundamental difference between what's right and what's wrong. Truth is aside from a very slim percentage of the population that is psychotic the rest of us know what's right and wrong so despite whatever differences or similarities that may exist in our personal histories there's the rub. If anything Iíll say that itís especially inexcusable for a survivor of SA to act out against others since at the very least we of all people should know better. Just my thoughts. JS



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Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And weíll change the world.


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