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#351804 - 01/24/11 08:42 PM Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Some days I wonder what kind of world we are living in.

HUD is proposing to remove discrimination in their housing programs based on sexual orientation and gender identity:

Quote:
The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development today proposed new regulations intended to ensure that its core housing programs are open to all eligible persons, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity. View the proposed rule announced today. “This is a fundamental issue of fairness,” said HUD Secretary Shaun Donovan. “We have a responsibility to make certain that public programs are open to all Americans. With this proposed rule, we will make clear that a person’s eligibility for federal housing programs is, and should be, based on their need and not on their sexual orientation or gender identity.”

In response, Bryan Fischer from the American Family Association, penned an article responding to this proposal saying:

Quote:
Survey after survey indicates that homosexuals have higher levels of income and education than sexually normal individuals, meaning they have a greater range of housing choices than normal folk as it is.

So this really isn’t about access to housing; it’s about forcing the rest of us to accept homosexual behavior as normative, something no sane society should ever do.

...and:

Quote:
There are two more reasons why this is a perfectly bad idea. (...) One, many young boys living in HUD housing are already in troubled domestic situations, many with no father presence in the home. The last thing they need is suddenly to be living next door to two males modeling a sexually abnormal lifestyle. Role models matter immensely to young boys, and they don’t need any more adults around them setting bad examples. They’ve already been exposed to enough of that.

And we know - despite the howls of protest to the contrary - that male homosexuals molest young boys at a hugely exaggerated rate. The Roman Catholic Church, for instance, did a study of its own priests who molested children, and found that 81% of the victims were boys.

The last thing in the world young males in troubled home settings need is to be put in a situation where there is a heightened chance they will be sexually molested by their next door neighbors. These HUD housing projects will become hunting grounds with easy prey for homosexual pedophiles. These young boys have enough obstacles to overcome as it is without becoming sexually confused and diseased on top of everything else.

Far from just being offensive, based on the US Census data Fischer is also being misleading. The Williams Institute US Census Data Snapshot shows that:

Quote:
The median income of same-sex coupled households in the U.S. is $63,600, more than that of married couples ($57,500). The average household income of same-sex couples is $80,610, more than $73,655 for married couples.
(...)
Same-sex couples are significantly less likely than married couples to own their homes: 60% of same- sex couples in the U.S. own their home, compared to 81% of married couples.
(...)
Same-sex parents in the U.S. have fewer financial resources to support their children than married parents. The median household income of same- sex couples with children is $46,200, or 23% lower than that of married parents ($59,600). The average household income of same-sex couples with children is $59,270, significantly less than $74,777 for married parents.
(...)
While 51% of same-sex couples with children own their home, a much larger percentage of married parents (77%) own their home.

So, while the median and mean household income of same-sex couples outpaces married opposite-sex couples by about $6000, same-sex couples with kids have about $13,000 less than married opposite-sex couples who are also raising children.

And 21% fewer same-sex couples own their own homes than married opposite sex couples, 26% more married opposite-sex couples raising kids own their own homes compared to their same-sex counterparts raising children.

It's bad enough that people like Fischer lie about the most basic and verifiable data on same-sex couples and families ("Gays are rich, they can't be oppressed!"), but when they make The Big Lie that gay men equal pedophiles it makes me wonder why the media doesn't more aggressively call them on their lies.

My rape happened when I was 12, but it's at moments like this, when religious and nominally christian organizations tell me that as a gay man I'm a perpetrator and not a survivor, that I realize... my rape is still happening.

Until someone speaks up to stop the lies that blame me for my own abuse and deny me equal treatment under the law, there is still a weight on top of me, using a violent will to tear at me for their own pleasure - and telling me it's all my own fault.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#351813 - 01/24/11 09:33 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
charty Offline


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 44
Loc: Wisconsin
efm,

Thank you for posting this.

_________________________
Peace,

Callen

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#351849 - 01/25/11 04:23 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: charty]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
It is these types of people that have made me feel bad about myself. Well those days are over!!!

Thanks for sharing... huggs...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#353049 - 02/08/11 12:57 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: diamondheart]
elshaneo Offline


Registered: 02/07/11
Posts: 10
Loc: Canada
I found this a while ago and thought it was wonderful:

http://wakingupnow.com/blog/protect-children-2

It shows how the lie that gay men are pedophiles allows the true abusers to remain safe and hidden.

_________________________
I've been very well acquainted with the fact that there's evil in the world but I work every day to believe that there's an equal amount of goodness out there.

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#353162 - 02/09/11 06:12 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: elshaneo]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
For one most know their abuser, and two hating someone because they are different it not ok.
I do not hate all breders, but this one is off his rocker. Jesus said to love and reach out to others.
Anyone can hurt someone I was molested by many people most were family. None of them were gay.
20 people hurt me and none were gay.

I had to leave a blog on there. I signed Michael J.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#353193 - 02/09/11 01:41 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: michael Joseph]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
and truly, this shows the ugliness of human nature

it is both beautiful and ugly

this is ugly


Top
#353204 - 02/09/11 03:05 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
DeafDavid Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 38
Loc: NM
My abusers were not Gay, or at least did they identify that way. I really know hardly anyone that was abused by a Gay man. It seems simple, If people from groups, such as The American Family Foundation really want to know the truth, just ask people like us for the facts. It really is sad that they continue to allow children to be in danger just for their own anti-gay hateful agenda. It really is shameful. I am doing my best to not allow all the recent gay hate to hurt me any more than I have been.


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#353444 - 02/12/11 01:36 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: DeafDavid]
1.healing Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/10/10
Posts: 261
Loc: NW Ohio
So many of these homophobes and haters, like Bryan Fisher from The American Family Association, are closeted homosexuals who create smoke screens to coverup their real sexual identity and self loathing.


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#353453 - 02/12/11 09:01 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: 1.healing]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
in my humble view at the root of this entire issue is the suppression of male sexual identity.

we as men in the u.s. in particular are not allowed to be sexual beings. i think women indirectly hold great power over the male identity crisis for their own, selfish agenda. i think men fear exploring their own identity due to the power women have right now. i'm speaking in very high-level generalizations of course, but i do so because i don't see anyone else brave enough to speak! gonna go against the oprahs of the country? not. i will though, quite proudly, because i do want a male revolution as one way to combat childhood sexual abuse.

until then, here we sit - stuck in internal, fearful chaos. one of the outcomes of this is the "gay = ped" equation. as much as those of us who identify as same-sex attracted wish we could say that gays don't molest, we simply can't. they do. but all "normal" men, that is those who do not molest, must come together for the cause of boys and protect our society from pedophiles. this in turn improves the quality of life for all men - gay, straight, whateva. its also a cause i do not see any gay rights group pushing forward. shameful! its all about "me" "my gay rights" "my right to marry," etc. that selfish position, in my view, hurts gays more than the ped equation too although i think they are somewhat interconnected.

_________________________
Jeff

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#353464 - 02/12/11 11:25 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: westchesterguy]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Jeff,

What exactly is the cause is you want to see gay rights organizations take up? Opposing pedophile rape of boys? Opposing religious rape of boys? Opposing Male Rape in the Military? Opposing Male Rape in Prison? Something else?

Here are some thought on why those organizations aren't engaged:
  • Non-Core: These issues are not part of their core missions.
  • PR-Negative: Addressing these issues could easily be spun negatively, strengthening the current misconceptions and link between gay men and pedophilia, and also preventing success in their core missions. Remember that pedophile groups like NAMBLA are always trying to say they are part of the gay community, despite being rejected by the community completely.
  • Already Addressed: It seems like gays rights organization speak to the gay=pedophile issue when they need to, and are speaking appropriately about how pedophiles should be brought to justice.
There are already people who should be taking up these fights as either a primary or secondary mission - Parents groups, Human Health groups, the Department of Veterans Affairs, Prisoner Advocacy Groups, and Survivor Organizations (including Friends and Family).

Perhaps some better questions to be asking are these:

MaleSurvivor, how are you working to affect policy and fight myths on this issue? Do you have goals, an education plan? Have you made connections to other groups and are you building a coalition? Are you working on any public policy? Is there a lobbying plan? Are there bills you are drafting or proposing?

I'd suggest targeting your encouragement to groups like MaleSurvivor to engage before going after groups with only a peripheral engagement in male sexual victimization.

I agree that there is misandry in our society (you only have to look at how men are portrayed in commercials to see that) but your contention that male sexual identity is so repressed in our society doesn't ring true for this gay man. I see celebrations of straight male sexual identity everywhere while gay male sexual identity is pathologized, demonized, vilified, and mocked. I'd like to see another thread in the appropriate forum where you could lay out your thesis and it's supporting proof. It would be an interesting discussion.

I find it disturbing to hear the rhetoric of homophobia being echoed in this discussion - that gays are selfish for wanting equal treatment, and that gays are shameful for pursuing it. This language is used to tell us that not only that we don't deserve to be treated equally, but that we should be ashamed for even asking.

I don't see it as shameful or selfish that gay rights organizations have their eyes on the goals that help them fulfill their missions, especially when the groups who should be addressing sexual victimization of men and boys, who should be leading on it, are no-where-to-be-seen.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#353465 - 02/12/11 11:51 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
efm,

Well said in all respects. I can only stand in agreement with you for I can think of nothing to add to what you wrote. It is neve selfish for any group to defend or advocate for their rights. If some in the country are tired of the rhetoric then they need simply to get out of the way and let equality truly ring out across the land.


Daryl



Edited by prisonerID (02/12/11 11:56 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#353479 - 02/12/11 02:40 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: prisonerID]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I agree. What is MaleSurvivor doing to make this a space that is welcoming to gay men?

I signed up for the Santa Cruz wor weekend and now I am wondering... who are these guys?

Check this out-
http://www.ldsresources.info/professionals/beckstead.shtml

one of the facilitators I have spoken with...

I am not sure where he stands but I did question him... what gives you the right to facilitate my journey to healing? how can you do that when you see 'positive outcomes' of reparative therapy? i don't know Lee's current position and I know he's listed in the LGBT-affirming therapists directory but I can't help but wonder if this is an example of people who think they are helping but are bringing their own personal issues with gays into the issue of sexual violence?

For me that is very toxic.


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#353480 - 02/12/11 02:58 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
i struggle so much with shame and I hear guys on here talking about their SSA as if that is the real problem. . . let's go a little deeper here.

we all have something in common here, something we are working to heal from. it's the devastation of being used for someone else's power/pleasure trip. i'm angry because i hear all these messages that really trigger my shame about how my dad used my enjoyment to justify putting me down, dirty you liked it etc....

NO

i took a helpless situation and clung to what closeness i could. that has nothing to do with being gay. that has everything to do with surviving.

and as a gay man i find all this very offensive. my dad is a married heterosexual. perhaps we should go demonizing heterosexuals for the harm they cause to little boys. and AFA using priest pedophiles as an example of gays? those closeted child-abusing priests are not gay... they are sick.

i want to know who i am when i clear out all the shame. i have enough of that. i'm done with taking on other people's bs around this. who am i when the shame is gone. show me that, God.

and not the God that lives in stickly sweet church backrooms where boys cry out in pain

and not the God that lives in original LDS>

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#353481 - 02/12/11 03:06 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
ps anti racism groups should now also donate to anti-terrorist groups because, as we all know, muslims are evil terrorists. black/civil rights groups should donate to police anti-crime bills because, as we all know, blacks are just a bunch of thugs.

what BULLSHIT.


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#353483 - 02/12/11 03:10 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
i have scarcely once seen in the media a BEAUTIFUL WHOLESOME HEALTHY portrayal of a gay person... it's so ironic to me because I know of many examples in my own life.

it reminds me of 10-20 years ago when every black person on tv had an afro and was from a poor family and struggled with alcohol or drugs and had serious issues...

come on...


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#353551 - 02/13/11 11:58 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey risingagain,

The latest issue being raised here is "who is doing the policy and advocacy work to give survivors a voice in government and legislation?" and not a question of making a safe space on this site or at WoRs.

However, creating a safe space at the WoRs is a very worthy topic.

I attended the 2010 Spring WoR in Santa Cruz and Lee was one of the facilitators there. While I don't think that any of us were aware that Lee had any connection with the LDS church at the time, I'm not aware of any concerns or issues from Gay or Bi identifying men attending that WoR.

Reviewing the link you posted, and setting aside the urge to react to the fact that it's an LDS resource site, I see the content as generally accepting and non-judgemental of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. This page reads as a bridge for LDS members who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual and says that what the individual wants, their goals, should guide the treatment plan and that means all beneficial treatments are on the table - including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender affirming therapy. That sounds like it pushes right up to the edge of what an LDS resource site might permit in terms of supporting it's members who identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

My impression is reinforced by the biographical information on this site, which details Lee's work with the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities, and his co-authoring the chapter regarding sexual orientation conflicts in the American Psychological Association’s Second Edition of their "Handbook of Counseling and Psychotherapy with Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Clients"( Beckstead & Israel, 2006). This page has a longer list of publications that in their titles indicate a critical assessment and approach to the outcomes of sexual reorientation therapy. Take a few minutes to read a few pages of "Cures vs. Choices: Agendas and Sexual Reorientation Therapy" and I think you'll get a sense that Lee is working to stake out a "neutral zone" where people can get the help they want without being caught in the religious or political crossfire. I think that's a worthy goal, don't you?

Let's also remember that there are straight identifying men who have same-sex attraction and who feel it's completely incongruent with their identity. These men will be attending the WoR seeking healing and I believe the knowledge and experience of people like Lee will help these men make significant progress in their recovery.

Part of the contract for the WoR is that *everyone* signs on to create a safe space for the attendees and there is an exercise where people talk about their fears and concerns that sets safety rules for all attendees and staff. If this is an issue for you in feeling safe at the 2011 WoR you will have a place to address it with the whole group.

Take heart and don't let anything get between you and the experience of attending the WoR.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#353599 - 02/14/11 01:40 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
To be very frank, efm, I am totally devastated by the shame that I have taken on in order to protect my family from their own lies. I see others doing the same thing with the church and it sickens me. As a gay person I choose to raise my voice, to say YES I am a beautiful creation of God.

I am so angry at my mother and father, and all those that followed that tried to teach me to hate myself, because of their fear, their shame, and their confusion.

I am tired of my word and my truth being twisted against me and used to fuel campaigns of hate. My mom does this, the church does this, the AFA does this.

I am tired of being a doormat and I am coming to the recovery weekend in order to break these chains. When my anger is spent and my shame is spilling out, how will Lee and the facilitator team hold me? Will they hold me with respect and honor my silences?

I have been burned even by tolerant religious people who find my truth too difficult for them to swallow. That is their loss, but I will not let it be mine as well.

Shining with sword in hand,
Ra


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#353600 - 02/14/11 01:42 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
ps a wise man once said,
you ain't helpin anyone by sitting on the fence


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#353620 - 02/14/11 10:21 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
....I find it disturbing to hear the rhetoric of homophobia being echoed in this discussion - that gays are selfish for wanting equal treatment, and that gays are shameful for pursuing it. This language is used to tell us that not only that we don't deserve to be treated equally, but that we should be ashamed for even asking.


you do? i don't, but i live this stuff.

how often have i already mentioned on this board that if my boss were to find out i dated guys - i'd lose my job?

for all i know he is one who equates gays with being peds. i'm the poster boy for this issue at the moment.... my outreach to gay members of this board, and to gay professionals off this board in the past 18 months has resulted in zip. nadda. some pals! but typical, i should not be surprised.

so, in a selfish moment of truth for moi, i will ask this: who is rallying around me? all i need is a job lead... not a law passed, or equal housing.

secondly, efm, there are "no" reasons to avoid taking up the cause of helping men recover from sexual abuse, and simultaneously work on prevention for boys today.

1) malesurvivor --at least in my view-- has done more than any other group to advance the cause of male survivors - gay and straight alike. and i say this having first stumbled upon this more loosely organized mission back in 1992/1993. if some of its members feel otherwise, there are plenty of reasons given the past we all share.

2) while i am just tickled rainbowflag pink that you are pleased with male sexuality in your world, because it gives me hope this might spread to my world too; we do not agree on where it stands today.

a.) i believe that the gay movement, males in particular not so much females, are a selfish bunch. this is primarily why i would never raise a rainbow flag, nor would i vote in support of gay marriage until things change in the community.

b.) while we could pen a book here about differences between men and women, i do think women rank way up there in keeping men suppressed: because they can and many get off the power -its just a very expected outcome from years of male dominance and suppression towards women.

3) i've been waiting 30 years for the gay movement to take up a cause other than one specifically serving their agenda a.) AIDS, b.) equal rights at work and in military, c.) marriage.

why hasn't the gay movement gotten involved with improving this country's third-world public educational standards?

why haven't they worked with the FBI to close down NAMBLA once and for all?

why haven't gay groups gotten to together in june and rather than have a lovely parade that just makes our day -- they instead get together to give back to the greater community we all share? build/clean up a park in a low income neighborhood, spend a weekend remodeling a needy grammar school -- the list goes on for needs of the greater community we all share.

until gays come out in support of the greater good of all, expect nothing to change from the masses and the view from the fringe that gays=peds.

_________________________
Jeff

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#353627 - 02/14/11 11:03 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
risingagain,

It's clear to me that you will benefit from attending this WoR. I support you in raising your voice against the lies and shame affecting your life and heading to the WoR is all about being able to recognize and release that shame.

I confess I'm confused why you are focusing your anger, fear, and distrust on one person you haven't met and don't even know. Prejudging him sounds like a move you would be pretty angry about if it was directed at you.

To be equally frank, I believe that you are doing what many WoR attendees do as it comes closer - become afraid and anxious about what will happen and how they will feel, and cast about for reasons not to go, in some cases inventing them out of whole cloth or latching on to any justification offered.

When I went through the WoR I didn't know any of the facilitators beforehand and that was because the weekend was all about we survivors. My personal experience at the previous WoR, and the significant research I have done since you raised your concern, leads me to believe that you are worrying needlessly. I haven't shared everything I learned, just enough to prove that your concern is unfounded. At the same time, I acknowledge your feelings are real and recognize that no amount of information I could share would make you comfortable at this point.

What happens now is all up to you.
  • I support you in taking responsibility for your own feelings, fears, and reactions.
  • I support you in talking with Howard about your concerns prior to attending the WoR.
  • I support you in expressing what you need to feel safe when you arrive at the WoR.
-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#353631 - 02/14/11 11:12 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: westchesterguy]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I'll respond at greater length when I have time, but this leapt out at me...

Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
i've been waiting 30 years for the gay movement to take up a cause other than one specifically serving their agenda a.) AIDS, b.) equal rights at work and in military, c.) marriage.

So... stop waiting for others to act on what you care about and do it yourself.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#353632 - 02/14/11 11:15 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
reguardless of someone afiliations with churches, therapists take are suppossed to help everyone and if they feel they cannot not help someone for any reason should not see them. That said, if he goes to a WoR he will see gay men, and I figure he will help them because that is why he is there.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#353636 - 02/14/11 11:33 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Thanks efm. Here's a story .

When I came to this city, I started a football team and made one very good friend. He became like my best friend and helped me organize the team. We spent a lot of time hanging out, and I had the privilege of spending some time with his wife and 4 children- an amazing man. We became close and trusted one another.

He is an LDS guy, a tolerant breed of Mormon whose brother is gay. We had many a discussion about it, how he struggled to love his bro and realized some important lessons. He said he loves gay people, but that we are all sinners and that homosexual acts are sinful. We agreed to disagree on that, and maintained a good friendship.

We were also playing tackle football on our team together, which as you might expect is very intense.

At the semi-final of our third season as teammates and friends, we won an important game which would launch us to the final game. My friend was so elated after that game. As our team was celebrating on the field, he came up to me and gave me a HUGE hug. I was totally shocked, because my friend is not touchy feely, and had never hugged me (although he did slap my ass a fair bit, but that's normal in football). I was a bit surprised, but decided to let him hug me...

then, he leaned into my face to kiss me.

My neck and head tensed up - I was like, WTF - and we ended up bumping noses.

Then he said, "woah woah, don't get excited now"

After that moment, he became very awkward and we entered a kind of radio silence. We lost our championship game and he never spoke to me after that.

We ended up having a huge confrontation on Facebook where it all came out that he was blaming me for kissing him. Once again, my truth was twisted against me. I was willing to laugh the whole thing off as an awkward moment and agree to disagree on who initiated it.

But he was really bothered and made a huge point of calling me a liar and an enemy and telling the whole team how I had betrayed him.

Shortly thereafter I began working on my CSA and left the team to take care of myself.

So in my experience everyone has issues, and just because Lee has a Ph.D and has done work on his religious beliefs and sexuality does not necessarily qualify him to hold me in a sacred way.

Does that make sense?

Thanks for your feedback. It helped.


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#353641 - 02/14/11 11:51 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
I did not realize Aids was only a gay thing, and eventhough it is not why would not a population who had a large amt of people with an illness want to help stop that illness.

Also did not realize we should all not want equal rights.
And I think we should all be able to marry anyone we want.

I consider Ken my Husband, Virginia does not but who cares.
Today is Valentine's Day and I am going out to eat with him
I really think people cause more heart ache and problems over things they do not understand. Love is love is love.

I would rather love than hate.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#353645 - 02/14/11 12:52 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
westchesterguy Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
...
So... stop waiting for others to act on what you care about and do it yourself.
-efm


nope did that already. time for something new.

i don't care whether the so called gay community acts, reacts, or ignores any cause to serve just itself. i only say - count me out of that community until it changes its tune collectively speaking.

my solo battle in life was working with this movement - the male sexual abuse movement -- to raise awareness and to educate parents on how to protect their sons. and how to move forward with their sons should he be victimized. furthermore i wrote about it extensively over the past 20 years.

i also know my limits when carrying a torch on social cause. until i do get to a financially stable place again the focus must only be on a battle to survive. and once (and or if) i reach that stable place, i don't know yet what cause i'll take up next. but it won't likely be one centered around "gay" issues. maybe learning disabilities or helping middle-aged male victims of corporate layoff. those topics touch all men, gay and straight.



_________________________
Jeff

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#353744 - 02/15/11 12:57 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: westchesterguy]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
the things that i am passionate about -- the issues that touch me personally, are the best areas for me to be of service to others.

gay people should be commended for the service they have done for the world. in case it's not obvious, we have helped to make it clear what love really is- that it's not a physical thing- it's a spiritual thing. that we have shown the world resilience and taught you about parenting, about bullying, about the flexibility of gender expression, about both male and female oppression, about the beauty of love, about acceptance, non-judgement, and also about resilience in the face of adversity. so many lessons.

if all you see is a bunch of faggots cavorting at bars, you've got your eyes closed brother.


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#353747 - 02/15/11 01:16 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada

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#353748 - 02/15/11 01:29 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: risingagain
.....if all you see is a bunch of faggots cavorting at bars, you've got your eyes closed brother.


interesting that you typed that. so, it is the responsibility of non-gays to go out of their way.... and open their eyes and come to embrace something they know nothing about?

what about gays, like myself, who do not embrace the gay agenda in the first place? (true, doubt we matter to other gays even though there are more of us around than people realize.)

nonetheless, by this line of reasoning, let's apply it to male survivors. forever more -- that door we've come to know these past 30 years is closed. people must actively seek us out so that they may come to understand male sexual abuse.

is that appropriate?

shall the general population just apply that "bar scene" to victims of sexual abuse as well? thus they come to understand there is no further depth to survivors... after all "men obviously 'wanted it' or why would they have been with an older man in the first place?"

cannot have it both ways in my view.

male survivors must speak to "open those eyes" outside of our circles, just as gays must mingle with the masses and open those eyes that "gays = peds" is a myth, among other things.

forcing change through legislation and screaming and name calling does not bring an understanding. it brings chaos and requires damage control. problem not solved.

_________________________
Jeff

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#353749 - 02/15/11 01:38 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: westchesterguy]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
i agree with you that screaming and name calling does not solve our problems.

but i understand why gays don't mingle with the masses. for example, i started a tackle football team and was the only openly gay guy on it. i dealt with the daily crap some guys threw out, even heard the coach say cocksucker once... it's ingrained homophobia ... i went to a conservative church for their mass and found it inspiring despite the obvious anti-gay beliefs...

but i don't hold my gay brothers to join me ... i am perhaps unconventional and a fucking fighter.... perhaps i enjoy the abuse... why should any person put themselves in an environment which is negative? it was not encumbent upon black people to go and hang out in white spaces during apartheid... although integration is the eventual goal, for a lot of people their environment is too hostile to make that worthwhile.

why should i go and tell some straight guy at a bar about my love life? hell, i went to the titty bar with my football buds last summer, and danced with some of the girls...

what's this gay agenda you're referring to? that we want to be treated with respect?


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#353750 - 02/15/11 01:40 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
ps the video i posted contains wonderful footage of the 'gay agenda' making a difference


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#353752 - 02/15/11 01:57 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
westchesterguy Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: risingagain
... it's ingrained homophobia ...


bingo!

and its this way for the same reasons i've been stating all along.

people "earn" respect -- they don't get handed respect out of the goodness of the male psyche or by passing special laws.

i can't speak to each of your points, although i think its very cool you started that football group. i'd have joined! :-) then there would have been two of us there.

but to this: "why should i go and tell some straight guy at a bar about my love life?"

i don't know why anyone would... however if he is talking to you, simply because he thinks you are a cool dude, which has been the case for me, the best answer in my book is: "oh, yeah, oh man, i can relate with that. guys are just like girls, they break your heart and turn to the next one." or something to that affect if its just a chummy conversation.

in that example, 1) i haven't said to this man that i'm gay and he must accept me or else i'm calling the equality police, 2) shared an equivalent experience "in a way that is rather disarming" man to man. we shared a bad (or good) dating experience together over a beer, he learns that i date guys, but he also sees that i'm not after him through my body language (which is 100% absent from anything/everything internet) and he sees that there should be no fear of me whatsoever.

it is in that approach where i strongly believe the myths can be squashed. gay guys are the fringe group here, and i think many of us are alone in the first place, which makes it more difficult, solitary, and isolating. i think part of the solution is on a case-by-case basis.

so, in my situation where i face job loss if it was discovered that i date guys - WHEN i finally find a new job and can leave this one -- that lasting, final impression must be: "jeff was the best worker we had... yeah he is a fag... but damn, i'll never be able to replace him." to me that is an incredible win, for me and for you and all other gay guys.

_________________________
Jeff

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#353753 - 02/15/11 02:07 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: risingagain
ps the video i posted contains wonderful footage of the 'gay agenda' making a difference


sigh - i can tell we won't agree on this. :-)

i do not approve of that whole "it gets better" movement because i think that is an irresponsible message to give teens - gay or straight - doesn't matter.

life does NOT get better. it gets more complicated, more difficult, more stressful, and in it there can be some points of joy, great sex, good friends, an extreme challenges some of which we will win and some we will lose.

lying to kids on the verge of suicide is, to me, a tragedy in itself. never lie. instead arm them, hug them, love them, prep them, bulk them up - make them stronger to fight for what they believe in and empower them so that "they can succeed!"

_________________________
Jeff

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#353755 - 02/15/11 02:22 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
i sing in a gay men's chorus. we did a benefit concert for a local child find organization that works to prevent child abuse and abduction. we sang a powerful song, prayer of the children, together with 200 children on stage and 3 other choirs.

it was so powerful for me, i was just starting to work on my abuse and having all these gleaming children around me raising their voices for their protection was so beautiful.

i guess that's another example of the gay agenda, huh?


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#353885 - 02/16/11 08:40 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Jeff, I think in that bar I would do the same thing as you- use a story, something the person can relate to, to build a bridge.

"people "earn" respect -- they don't get handed respect out of the goodness of the male psyche or by passing special laws."

And what about people who have earned respect but still don't get it? For example, the veteran lesbian cop in Florida whose partner, also a cop, was killed while on duty defending a bank from bank robbers. In a time when she should have been mourning the loss of her life partner, she endured a whole year of public scrutiny and was denied the significant benefits normally associated with a spouse's death. People called her selfish for asking for money that any straight couple would get no questions asked in that very same situation.

It's covered beautifully in the movie, Tying the Knot. Check it out sometime.


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#353886 - 02/16/11 08:50 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I also agree with you that personal connection is a great way to break down walls. I found that to be true as a member of a football team. Once the guys realized I'm just a normal guy, they opened up to me and we had a lot of good times.

Still though, I faced the prejudice of some.

In my judgement the gay community needs good balanced men and women to show up as part of it. So I am showing up.


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#354129 - 02/19/11 11:25 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Thanks for sharing that, risingagain. It's painful to begin to trust and be bruised. And yet, to live fully in the world that risk is part of the deal.

I would encourage you to reflect on why you are projecting all of these fears and concerns on this person. We can all come up with something that resonates with us as a reason not to move forward in our recovery.

Courage is not letting it stop us.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#354132 - 02/19/11 11:58 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: westchesterguy]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
i do not approve of that whole "it gets better" movement because i think that is an irresponsible message to give teens - gay or straight - doesn't matter.

life does NOT get better. it gets more complicated, more difficult, more stressful, and in it there can be some points of joy, great sex, good friends, an extreme challenges some of which we will win and some we will lose.

lying to kids on the verge of suicide is, to me, a tragedy in itself. never lie. instead arm them, hug them, love them, prep them, bulk them up - make them stronger to fight for what they believe in and empower them so that "they can succeed!"

I hear that you are feeling a lot of frustration, anger, and pain about the experiences you've had in your life. Many of us have felt the same way in our lives, too.

The "It Gets Better" Project is to encourage lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender teens to have hope that their life will get better so that ending their lives before they have even really begun is never a serious option. Hope displaces despair and opens us up to new possibilities and different lives. [Full-disclosure: I participated in an IGBP video project]

No one is saying that life isn't still difficult, and if you've watched as many of the videos as I have you'd have heard many stories of difficult post-school challenges, but what they are saying is that when you get control of your own life and your own choices you can go and create a life you really want to live despite the challenges. The results, as always, are somewhat up to fate, but mostly up to us.

I don't believe that giving our youth hope is irresponsible. Everyone deserves to have hope for change, a better day, and a better life. Failing to offer hope, well... that wouldn't be unconscionable.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#354572 - 02/23/11 01:14 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
>>
I would encourage you to reflect on why you are projecting all of these fears and concerns on this person. We can all come up with something that resonates with us as a reason not to move forward in our recovery.

Courage is not letting it stop us.

-efm
<<

Courage is also having the balls to stand up to any establishment which I feel may be out of integrity. My question to any organization that claims to be LGBT affirmative is...

What are you DOING to affirm the LGBT people in your group?

Gay people have taken a beating. Recovery organizations should work actively to dispel myths around homosexuality, including those perpetrated by the church.

When leaders in these organizations also represent the church (Jim Struve, Lee Beckstead, others?), there is AT LEAST a potential for damage to gay people attending their weekends. I want to see this addressed directly, but have heard nothing from the team leading the weekend I'm signed up for.

As a client I have a right to ask questions about the recovery methods and the therapists. That is my right, and I will exercise it, because god damnit, my little boy is WORTH IT!

Ra


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#354574 - 02/23/11 01:20 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
PS One thing I have learned about projections is that, although they reflect my issues, that does not make them false. There may or may not be truth in any projection I have about another person or situation.

Even if I am triggered, I have the right to question service providers and to challenge them to be more accountable to their mission. In my belief, that is what a real man does.

I have also learned that every therapist, regardless of training or experience, is also a human being. We all have beliefs and concepts that color the way we see a situation. This affects a therapist's therapeutic response and behavior. We are all affected by our experiences.

Any therapist that pretends to be 'the expert' without acknowledging their own humanness is a dangerous person.

Back to my question... Malesurvivor, what are you DOING to affirm the LGBT people in your organization? What are your beliefs, spoken and unspoken about gay life?

The nature of the organization is in how it responds to challenge.


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#354575 - 02/23/11 01:22 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Protect my little boy

that's my motive.


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#354576 - 02/23/11 01:36 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
>>>
Gay people have taken a beating. Recovery organizations should work actively to dispel myths around homosexuality, including those perpetrated by the church.
<<<

Quoting myself... and why should they? the reason is because only recovery organizations CAN dispel those gay=perp myths... we owe it to the gay survivors in our ranks who have survived not only homophobia but sexual abuse as well, and yet they continue to be demonized by the likes of the AFA.

because we have the facts, we can dispel these myths. I was raped by a married, straight man, my dad. A 'good christian', as it were.

so where is Malesurvivor? what are you DOING?


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#354615 - 02/23/11 11:34 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Howard Fradkin, PhD Offline
WoR Facilitator
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 35
Loc: Columbus, OH
As the Co-Chairperson of the WOR team, I want to assure anyone reading these threads that the WOR are for everyone, and we welcome everyone, and we affirm people from all walks of life, of all sexual orientations, ages (18 and over), religions, cultural backgrounds. Our first goal at every weekend is to help ensure the safety of every man at the weekend. We do this by asking every man at the weekend to tell us what they need to feel safe enough to risk opening up during the weekend. All of these safety requests are written down and posted all during the weekend. We do not tolerate bigotry, and will address actively any time during a weekend when a request for safety is violated. At the same time, we understand every participant at the weekends may be struggling with a whole range of concerns and confusions and problems, and part of creating safety is our emphasis on recruiting and building a team of facilitators who will be able to hold any man in his struggles, no matter what they may be. No where else on the planet could a survivor find the depth and breadth of experience represented on this team, and in the ratios we work, ie 1 facilitator for every 3.5 men means we have ample staff to provide individual attention as needed. Every man is interviewed by one of our staff before a weekend, and is given an opportunity then to voice any concerns they are having. In addition, I am happy to speak with any man who is having safety concerns prior to a weekend as is my Co-Chair Jim Stuve, and further, we are happy to address safety concerns with any man's therapist as well.



Edited by Howard Fradkin, PhD (02/23/11 11:42 PM)
_________________________
Howard R. Fradkin, Ph.D.
MaleSurvivor Weekends of Recovery Co-Chairperson

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#354638 - 02/24/11 02:49 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Howard Fradkin, PhD]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Thanks for your response Howard. I would like to dialog this further with Lee and yourself. It's REALLY important to me that I not get 're-raped' via truth twisting and lies that equate homosexuality with pedophilia, or imply that my sexuality is an illness caused by the abuse I suffered.

Will your facilitator team address these myths squarely? What are your beliefs around that?

I understand that, for some men, they feel that being in a heterosexual relationship is right for them, or they are married to a woman, or that they are straight and the abuse confused them sexually. That is one thing and I respect it.

At the same time, there should be equal sacredness given to men like myself, who are gay and happy about that! For myself, one MAJOR GOAL of recovery is to make myself ready to create a HEALTHY family, which to me means a husband and responsibility for the care of children. Any recovery which denies this greater truth in me (that I am a good caregiver, role model and an amazing guy!) is just an empty road.

Now let's see where we can go from here...

feeling 1% more open


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#354639 - 02/24/11 02:52 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
and once again, please do not be blinded by your experience.

the minute i feel like an 'expert' i am already off track


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#354643 - 02/24/11 03:30 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I'll share that my experience at the WoR as an out gay man and a survivor was very positive. From the first moments it was clear that every man, regardless of sexual orientation, wanted to be and feel safe.

We became the architects of our own safety, and in sharing our fears with each other, some of them surprising, those fears seemed to lose much of their power over us.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#354682 - 02/24/11 11:44 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Thanks efm. More comments from other gay survivors please!!!

I have this fear that the WoR is all about guys trying to "get over" their SSA and that the other side is not well represented.

I am diving deep here to look in myself what this is all about....

all i can say is my truth was twisted
and recovery for me is about finding my truth again

so agendas about sexual orientation are pretty toxic to me

my beautiful protector (who as you can see is quite a tyke) has come online...


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#354777 - 02/24/11 11:18 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Well, this is a guy who thinks a soldier who risks his life in combat to save another is a sissy so he can't possibly be taken seriously. Read on for more:

http://www.afa.net/Blogs/BlogPost.aspx?id=2147500421

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#354875 - 02/25/11 12:47 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: jls]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
jeez I wish those guys would get back to me... it's been almost 3 weeks since I raised this concern.

I'm already having a difficult time trusting... this feels terrible.

I just want to know what I am dealing with at this point.


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#354883 - 02/25/11 01:42 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Obi Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1341
Loc: kansas
wow! jls....

that guy is an idiot....

just told pete, irishmoose, about it... he's retired air force, served in vietnam....

all he could say was that no matter how much words like what that idiot posted in his article hurt, he served in the military to protect his right to say idiotic stuff like that...

*shakes head*... i feel bad for all of those who have served and are serving now that the rights they are fighting to protect are being used to shun them... awful...

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

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#354995 - 02/27/11 11:09 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Obi]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
What's wrong with so called "feminine" traits anyways, even in the military? After all, in the conflicts we are engaged in today in Iraq and Afghanistan, as much effort goes toward protecting vulnerable people from abuse by brutish factions like the Taliban and nurturing civil society as toward fighting the enemy. In this context it is in our interest to protect and nurture (both traditionally feminine traits) since doing so fosters stability in these countries, with the goal of reducing hostility and tensions world wide. Currently I am reading Mike Lew's "Victim's No longer" and I am impressed by what he has to say about how men and women alike are trapped in these socially constructed cages of what is supposed to be masculine or feminine. It benefits niether gender and like I described above is nowhere near accurate even when applied to something that says maleness as much as the military. Anyways just my thoughts. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#356410 - 03/13/11 01:39 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Efm,

I decided to re-read the material on here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1jYuientrGoC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=lee+beckstead+phd+ex-gay&source=bl&ots=eHCJDOFPzp&sig=uxIxlHlt__zpVb8i-TLxwh2wswA&hl=en&ei=xv1XTZeKLIn0swPtgt2iDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=lee%20beckstead%20phd%20ex-gay&f=false

From a more clear head-space and was very surprised to find that I still found it incredibly one-sided.

Lee's paper shows to me a clear bias towards reparative therapy, and his examples mainly reflect the confusion and angst of people caught in the gay vs God struggle.

What I do not see in his analysis, is the stories of people who are living happy, deeply fulfilled, successful lives with a partner of the same sex.

This reinforces the idea that 'gay life = unfulfilled, unsatisfying, un-godlike'. He actually gives space to old arguments that homosexuality is simply a way to try to 'complete' a person's masculinity, stemming from a person's feeling that they are not man enough.

This seems to suggest that gay relationships are a way to compensate for deeply held beliefs of inferiority. No doubt many gay men feel inferior. But is this the cause of their gay relationships, or is it the effect of hearing negative messages all their lives?

Also, these types of explanations don't explain well-adjusted, balanced men who are in gay relationships. I personally know a number of men who, in my judgement, are deeply happy and fulfilled. It is not easy for any person, gay or straight, to find happiness.


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#356411 - 03/13/11 01:39 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=1jYuientrGoC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=lee+beckstead+phd+ex-gay&source=bl&ots=eHCJDOFPzp&sig=uxIxlHlt__zpVb8i-TLxwh2wswA&hl=en&ei=xv1XTZeKLIn0swPtgt2iDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=lee%20beckstead%20phd%20ex-gay&f=false">Here's that link again</a>


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#356412 - 03/13/11 01:49 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
For a person who feels gay and who is an abuse survivor, the mix of shame from the abuse and from these types of messages is difficult to overcome.

I don't really know what I will choose when I rise above the shame.

But feeling 'unlovable' 'unworthy' or 'inferior' are not the way for me. That contributes to my shame.

Is it possible to have a committed, fulfilled, relationship with a man? One that is deeply honoring and that reflects the beauty and rightness of God? One which includes the responsibility for the care of children?

That question is a lot more interesting to me than arguments centered on temptation, brokenness, and addiction. Excuse me, Mr. Pious, but most straight relationships contain a LOT of temptation and an equal potential for STDs.


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#356413 - 03/13/11 01:55 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Also, I find the whole 'picture perfect' image of straight marriage to be insulting and false. We only have to look at the incidence of domestic violence, abuse, addiction and divorce in straight relationships to see that they are no picnic either.

Any relationship is risky, difficult. The rewards are worth it, in my opinion.

What about the racist overtones in traditional marriage arguments? The idea that marriage is this immutable golden institution that looks the same globally and is universally good is a bogus idea. Marriage has changed consistently throughout history, and is very different depending on where you go in the world. I find it very arrogant of any one spiritual teaching to claim that their version of marriage is the only one sanctioned by God and the only one that can lead to a happy life. False and misleading.


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#356419 - 03/13/11 02:20 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Quote:
What I do not see in his analysis, is the stories of people who are living happy, deeply fulfilled, successful lives with a partner of the same sex.

With respect, of course you found it one-sided. The scope of this specific research was transparently articulated stating his sample respondents are those who reported benefiting from this therapy.

Did you read *the other references* I shared with you that have much broader scope of inquiry?

Forgive me, but I don't see any upside in a continued dialog on this. You have a right to your own feelings and whether I or anyone else agree or not should be wholly immaterial to you.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#356420 - 03/13/11 02:27 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Efm,

It matters to me because it is an injustice being done to gay people. I am not sure where Lee stands and I am bringing my protector to the weekend in case I smell perpetration.

You are not able to silence me. So I am going to continue my rant until it is done.


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#356421 - 03/13/11 02:28 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
You described that specific article as trying to 'stake out a neutral zone'.

I don't see it that way.

We disagree.


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#356423 - 03/13/11 02:34 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
The other thing I find offensive is that attitude that Lee and others in this field are 'beyond reproach'. . . Any anger I have must simply be 'my issue'.

I wonder why Lee can not simply speak for himself in terms of his beliefs and values. As a client I have the right to know this about any therapist.

Healing from sexual abuse is one thing. Healing from homosexual attraction is another. Two what extent they are comingled for me and other men is unknown.... and yet what I have read from Lee so far suggests that he is very enmeshed with this (Gay vs God) struggle, and I find that dangerous, because they are two different topics for me.


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#356424 - 03/13/11 02:36 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
In other words, I'm coming to heal from sexual abuse. How that affects my sexual orientation is yet to be determined... But one thing is for sure... That will be determined by God and by me, not by anybody else.


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#356436 - 03/13/11 05:54 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I'm not in the least interested in silencing you. I am, however, interested in providing a counterpoint for others to consider alongside your own views.

I believe that your concerns and feelings are real. I believe that your judgements of an individual WoR staff member are uncritical, unjust, and rooted in bias and fear coming from your own experiences. I believe the appropriate thing for you to do is resolve your concerns by addressing them with the WoR team.

Instead, I believe that you have turned your reasonable concerns into an irrational and public witch hunt. I believe that you are maligning a person you don't know and have never met. I believe that given your experience there is no amount of information that would reassure you or convince you otherwise.

I believe that this situation is entirely about *you*.

I also believe that we all need to be accountable for our feelings and our behavior. I applaud any actions you take that seek to responsibly resolve your safety concerns at WoR, while also abhorring any actions you take that malign and unjustly judge others.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#356445 - 03/13/11 07:43 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I did not malign Lee. I never stated anything other than legitimate concern. I do not and did not claim to know where Lee stands.

My intention is not to malign anyone. My intention is for clarity and I feel that the team has not been 100% open with me. I have attempted to resolve this with Howard. Basically we are at a place where I acknowledge that I am bringing distrust to the weekend, and that is OK.

I am aware that I am projecting on Lee. However, don't you think it's fair for this gay man to ask any counsellor or therapist who is openly LDS what his beliefs and values are around the rightness of gay relationships?


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#356447 - 03/13/11 07:51 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Considering some of the myths that so-called "conservative" religions are spreading about gays, I think it's completely fair that I would feel distrust LDS members working in CSA healing.

Trust is a moment-by-moment assessment.

I have a right to trust and I have a right to not trust, and I have spoken honestly in each moment about where I am.

I encourage others to make up their own mind about the WoR. I will post my experiences when I get back. Who knows, maybe it will be an incredibly positive experience?


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#357958 - 03/28/11 08:14 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
OK Boys

I am back from the WoR.

In a word: GO.

It gets the gay seal-of-approval from this survivor.

smile


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#357960 - 03/28/11 08:53 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I'm very glad to hear that you had a positive experience.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#357965 - 03/28/11 09:51 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
smile

Yes, and I needed to have that chance to protect my little boy too.... all for a reason, bud, all for a reason.

J


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