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#356410 - 03/13/11 01:39 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Efm,

I decided to re-read the material on here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1jYuientrGoC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=lee+beckstead+phd+ex-gay&source=bl&ots=eHCJDOFPzp&sig=uxIxlHlt__zpVb8i-TLxwh2wswA&hl=en&ei=xv1XTZeKLIn0swPtgt2iDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=lee%20beckstead%20phd%20ex-gay&f=false

From a more clear head-space and was very surprised to find that I still found it incredibly one-sided.

Lee's paper shows to me a clear bias towards reparative therapy, and his examples mainly reflect the confusion and angst of people caught in the gay vs God struggle.

What I do not see in his analysis, is the stories of people who are living happy, deeply fulfilled, successful lives with a partner of the same sex.

This reinforces the idea that 'gay life = unfulfilled, unsatisfying, un-godlike'. He actually gives space to old arguments that homosexuality is simply a way to try to 'complete' a person's masculinity, stemming from a person's feeling that they are not man enough.

This seems to suggest that gay relationships are a way to compensate for deeply held beliefs of inferiority. No doubt many gay men feel inferior. But is this the cause of their gay relationships, or is it the effect of hearing negative messages all their lives?

Also, these types of explanations don't explain well-adjusted, balanced men who are in gay relationships. I personally know a number of men who, in my judgement, are deeply happy and fulfilled. It is not easy for any person, gay or straight, to find happiness.


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#356411 - 03/13/11 01:39 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=1jYuientrGoC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=lee+beckstead+phd+ex-gay&source=bl&ots=eHCJDOFPzp&sig=uxIxlHlt__zpVb8i-TLxwh2wswA&hl=en&ei=xv1XTZeKLIn0swPtgt2iDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=lee%20beckstead%20phd%20ex-gay&f=false">Here's that link again</a>


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#356412 - 03/13/11 01:49 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
For a person who feels gay and who is an abuse survivor, the mix of shame from the abuse and from these types of messages is difficult to overcome.

I don't really know what I will choose when I rise above the shame.

But feeling 'unlovable' 'unworthy' or 'inferior' are not the way for me. That contributes to my shame.

Is it possible to have a committed, fulfilled, relationship with a man? One that is deeply honoring and that reflects the beauty and rightness of God? One which includes the responsibility for the care of children?

That question is a lot more interesting to me than arguments centered on temptation, brokenness, and addiction. Excuse me, Mr. Pious, but most straight relationships contain a LOT of temptation and an equal potential for STDs.


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#356413 - 03/13/11 01:55 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Also, I find the whole 'picture perfect' image of straight marriage to be insulting and false. We only have to look at the incidence of domestic violence, abuse, addiction and divorce in straight relationships to see that they are no picnic either.

Any relationship is risky, difficult. The rewards are worth it, in my opinion.

What about the racist overtones in traditional marriage arguments? The idea that marriage is this immutable golden institution that looks the same globally and is universally good is a bogus idea. Marriage has changed consistently throughout history, and is very different depending on where you go in the world. I find it very arrogant of any one spiritual teaching to claim that their version of marriage is the only one sanctioned by God and the only one that can lead to a happy life. False and misleading.


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#356419 - 03/13/11 02:20 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Quote:
What I do not see in his analysis, is the stories of people who are living happy, deeply fulfilled, successful lives with a partner of the same sex.

With respect, of course you found it one-sided. The scope of this specific research was transparently articulated stating his sample respondents are those who reported benefiting from this therapy.

Did you read *the other references* I shared with you that have much broader scope of inquiry?

Forgive me, but I don't see any upside in a continued dialog on this. You have a right to your own feelings and whether I or anyone else agree or not should be wholly immaterial to you.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#356420 - 03/13/11 02:27 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Efm,

It matters to me because it is an injustice being done to gay people. I am not sure where Lee stands and I am bringing my protector to the weekend in case I smell perpetration.

You are not able to silence me. So I am going to continue my rant until it is done.


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#356421 - 03/13/11 02:28 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
You described that specific article as trying to 'stake out a neutral zone'.

I don't see it that way.

We disagree.


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#356423 - 03/13/11 02:34 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
The other thing I find offensive is that attitude that Lee and others in this field are 'beyond reproach'. . . Any anger I have must simply be 'my issue'.

I wonder why Lee can not simply speak for himself in terms of his beliefs and values. As a client I have the right to know this about any therapist.

Healing from sexual abuse is one thing. Healing from homosexual attraction is another. Two what extent they are comingled for me and other men is unknown.... and yet what I have read from Lee so far suggests that he is very enmeshed with this (Gay vs God) struggle, and I find that dangerous, because they are two different topics for me.


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#356424 - 03/13/11 02:36 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
In other words, I'm coming to heal from sexual abuse. How that affects my sexual orientation is yet to be determined... But one thing is for sure... That will be determined by God and by me, not by anybody else.


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#356436 - 03/13/11 05:54 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I'm not in the least interested in silencing you. I am, however, interested in providing a counterpoint for others to consider alongside your own views.

I believe that your concerns and feelings are real. I believe that your judgements of an individual WoR staff member are uncritical, unjust, and rooted in bias and fear coming from your own experiences. I believe the appropriate thing for you to do is resolve your concerns by addressing them with the WoR team.

Instead, I believe that you have turned your reasonable concerns into an irrational and public witch hunt. I believe that you are maligning a person you don't know and have never met. I believe that given your experience there is no amount of information that would reassure you or convince you otherwise.

I believe that this situation is entirely about *you*.

I also believe that we all need to be accountable for our feelings and our behavior. I applaud any actions you take that seek to responsibly resolve your safety concerns at WoR, while also abhorring any actions you take that malign and unjustly judge others.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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