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#353465 - 02/12/11 11:51 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
efm,

Well said in all respects. I can only stand in agreement with you for I can think of nothing to add to what you wrote. It is neve selfish for any group to defend or advocate for their rights. If some in the country are tired of the rhetoric then they need simply to get out of the way and let equality truly ring out across the land.


Daryl



Edited by prisonerID (02/12/11 11:56 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#353479 - 02/12/11 02:40 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: prisonerID]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I agree. What is MaleSurvivor doing to make this a space that is welcoming to gay men?

I signed up for the Santa Cruz wor weekend and now I am wondering... who are these guys?

Check this out-
http://www.ldsresources.info/professionals/beckstead.shtml

one of the facilitators I have spoken with...

I am not sure where he stands but I did question him... what gives you the right to facilitate my journey to healing? how can you do that when you see 'positive outcomes' of reparative therapy? i don't know Lee's current position and I know he's listed in the LGBT-affirming therapists directory but I can't help but wonder if this is an example of people who think they are helping but are bringing their own personal issues with gays into the issue of sexual violence?

For me that is very toxic.


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#353480 - 02/12/11 02:58 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
i struggle so much with shame and I hear guys on here talking about their SSA as if that is the real problem. . . let's go a little deeper here.

we all have something in common here, something we are working to heal from. it's the devastation of being used for someone else's power/pleasure trip. i'm angry because i hear all these messages that really trigger my shame about how my dad used my enjoyment to justify putting me down, dirty you liked it etc....

NO

i took a helpless situation and clung to what closeness i could. that has nothing to do with being gay. that has everything to do with surviving.

and as a gay man i find all this very offensive. my dad is a married heterosexual. perhaps we should go demonizing heterosexuals for the harm they cause to little boys. and AFA using priest pedophiles as an example of gays? those closeted child-abusing priests are not gay... they are sick.

i want to know who i am when i clear out all the shame. i have enough of that. i'm done with taking on other people's bs around this. who am i when the shame is gone. show me that, God.

and not the God that lives in stickly sweet church backrooms where boys cry out in pain

and not the God that lives in original LDS>

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#353481 - 02/12/11 03:06 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
ps anti racism groups should now also donate to anti-terrorist groups because, as we all know, muslims are evil terrorists. black/civil rights groups should donate to police anti-crime bills because, as we all know, blacks are just a bunch of thugs.

what BULLSHIT.


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#353483 - 02/12/11 03:10 PM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
i have scarcely once seen in the media a BEAUTIFUL WHOLESOME HEALTHY portrayal of a gay person... it's so ironic to me because I know of many examples in my own life.

it reminds me of 10-20 years ago when every black person on tv had an afro and was from a poor family and struggled with alcohol or drugs and had serious issues...

come on...


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#353551 - 02/13/11 11:58 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey risingagain,

The latest issue being raised here is "who is doing the policy and advocacy work to give survivors a voice in government and legislation?" and not a question of making a safe space on this site or at WoRs.

However, creating a safe space at the WoRs is a very worthy topic.

I attended the 2010 Spring WoR in Santa Cruz and Lee was one of the facilitators there. While I don't think that any of us were aware that Lee had any connection with the LDS church at the time, I'm not aware of any concerns or issues from Gay or Bi identifying men attending that WoR.

Reviewing the link you posted, and setting aside the urge to react to the fact that it's an LDS resource site, I see the content as generally accepting and non-judgemental of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. This page reads as a bridge for LDS members who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual and says that what the individual wants, their goals, should guide the treatment plan and that means all beneficial treatments are on the table - including lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender affirming therapy. That sounds like it pushes right up to the edge of what an LDS resource site might permit in terms of supporting it's members who identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

My impression is reinforced by the biographical information on this site, which details Lee's work with the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities, and his co-authoring the chapter regarding sexual orientation conflicts in the American Psychological Associationís Second Edition of their "Handbook of Counseling and Psychotherapy with Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Clients"( Beckstead & Israel, 2006). This page has a longer list of publications that in their titles indicate a critical assessment and approach to the outcomes of sexual reorientation therapy. Take a few minutes to read a few pages of "Cures vs. Choices: Agendas and Sexual Reorientation Therapy" and I think you'll get a sense that Lee is working to stake out a "neutral zone" where people can get the help they want without being caught in the religious or political crossfire. I think that's a worthy goal, don't you?

Let's also remember that there are straight identifying men who have same-sex attraction and who feel it's completely incongruent with their identity. These men will be attending the WoR seeking healing and I believe the knowledge and experience of people like Lee will help these men make significant progress in their recovery.

Part of the contract for the WoR is that *everyone* signs on to create a safe space for the attendees and there is an exercise where people talk about their fears and concerns that sets safety rules for all attendees and staff. If this is an issue for you in feeling safe at the 2011 WoR you will have a place to address it with the whole group.

Take heart and don't let anything get between you and the experience of attending the WoR.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#353599 - 02/14/11 01:40 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
To be very frank, efm, I am totally devastated by the shame that I have taken on in order to protect my family from their own lies. I see others doing the same thing with the church and it sickens me. As a gay person I choose to raise my voice, to say YES I am a beautiful creation of God.

I am so angry at my mother and father, and all those that followed that tried to teach me to hate myself, because of their fear, their shame, and their confusion.

I am tired of my word and my truth being twisted against me and used to fuel campaigns of hate. My mom does this, the church does this, the AFA does this.

I am tired of being a doormat and I am coming to the recovery weekend in order to break these chains. When my anger is spent and my shame is spilling out, how will Lee and the facilitator team hold me? Will they hold me with respect and honor my silences?

I have been burned even by tolerant religious people who find my truth too difficult for them to swallow. That is their loss, but I will not let it be mine as well.

Shining with sword in hand,
Ra


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#353600 - 02/14/11 01:42 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
ps a wise man once said,
you ain't helpin anyone by sitting on the fence


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#353620 - 02/14/11 10:21 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
....I find it disturbing to hear the rhetoric of homophobia being echoed in this discussion - that gays are selfish for wanting equal treatment, and that gays are shameful for pursuing it. This language is used to tell us that not only that we don't deserve to be treated equally, but that we should be ashamed for even asking.


you do? i don't, but i live this stuff.

how often have i already mentioned on this board that if my boss were to find out i dated guys - i'd lose my job?

for all i know he is one who equates gays with being peds. i'm the poster boy for this issue at the moment.... my outreach to gay members of this board, and to gay professionals off this board in the past 18 months has resulted in zip. nadda. some pals! but typical, i should not be surprised.

so, in a selfish moment of truth for moi, i will ask this: who is rallying around me? all i need is a job lead... not a law passed, or equal housing.

secondly, efm, there are "no" reasons to avoid taking up the cause of helping men recover from sexual abuse, and simultaneously work on prevention for boys today.

1) malesurvivor --at least in my view-- has done more than any other group to advance the cause of male survivors - gay and straight alike. and i say this having first stumbled upon this more loosely organized mission back in 1992/1993. if some of its members feel otherwise, there are plenty of reasons given the past we all share.

2) while i am just tickled rainbowflag pink that you are pleased with male sexuality in your world, because it gives me hope this might spread to my world too; we do not agree on where it stands today.

a.) i believe that the gay movement, males in particular not so much females, are a selfish bunch. this is primarily why i would never raise a rainbow flag, nor would i vote in support of gay marriage until things change in the community.

b.) while we could pen a book here about differences between men and women, i do think women rank way up there in keeping men suppressed: because they can and many get off the power -its just a very expected outcome from years of male dominance and suppression towards women.

3) i've been waiting 30 years for the gay movement to take up a cause other than one specifically serving their agenda a.) AIDS, b.) equal rights at work and in military, c.) marriage.

why hasn't the gay movement gotten involved with improving this country's third-world public educational standards?

why haven't they worked with the FBI to close down NAMBLA once and for all?

why haven't gay groups gotten to together in june and rather than have a lovely parade that just makes our day -- they instead get together to give back to the greater community we all share? build/clean up a park in a low income neighborhood, spend a weekend remodeling a needy grammar school -- the list goes on for needs of the greater community we all share.

until gays come out in support of the greater good of all, expect nothing to change from the masses and the view from the fringe that gays=peds.

_________________________
Jeff

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#353627 - 02/14/11 11:03 AM Re: Fairness in Housing = Pedophile Hunting Grounds [Re: risingagain]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
risingagain,

It's clear to me that you will benefit from attending this WoR. I support you in raising your voice against the lies and shame affecting your life and heading to the WoR is all about being able to recognize and release that shame.

I confess I'm confused why you are focusing your anger, fear, and distrust on one person you haven't met and don't even know. Prejudging him sounds like a move you would be pretty angry about if it was directed at you.

To be equally frank, I believe that you are doing what many WoR attendees do as it comes closer - become afraid and anxious about what will happen and how they will feel, and cast about for reasons not to go, in some cases inventing them out of whole cloth or latching on to any justification offered.

When I went through the WoR I didn't know any of the facilitators beforehand and that was because the weekend was all about we survivors. My personal experience at the previous WoR, and the significant research I have done since you raised your concern, leads me to believe that you are worrying needlessly. I haven't shared everything I learned, just enough to prove that your concern is unfounded. At the same time, I acknowledge your feelings are real and recognize that no amount of information I could share would make you comfortable at this point.

What happens now is all up to you.
  • I support you in taking responsibility for your own feelings, fears, and reactions.
  • I support you in talking with Howard about your concerns prior to attending the WoR.
  • I support you in expressing what you need to feel safe when you arrive at the WoR.
-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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