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#34965 - 05/08/05 02:05 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Charlie, yeah, its a grown ups world, but it was when I was a kid, going thru similar feelings.
I think I thought exactly the same things as you do today.
I often thought that there should be books to guide a young guy thru it, and it deeply saddens me that there is not much available to you both.
It is real tough to have to keep the silence, and it's tougher still to think that nobody cares.
Abuse does make adults feel helpless and guilty, but they have no way of knowing how to deal with it, so they need their own guidance.
People in this place care, that is what this place is for. Dealing with it now, will mean that you dont need to find this place in the future.
Hope you both be ok, have a look at this link I found, dunno if it is any use,

http://www.youthresource.com/our_lives/dating_violence/glbtq_relationships/male_male.htm

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#34966 - 05/08/05 04:55 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Kev, Charlie - other brothers in our community - I hear your disappointment, confusion and discouragement in finding a resource that speaks to your age group. Most are targeted to older guys and I'll tell you why. In about 1990, most people in the helpibng professions didn't really believe that "sexual abuse" happened to boys and, if it did, it wouldn't really have a bad affect. About that time the only books about males were Mike Lew's and Mic Hunter's as I recall. It was while the women's movement was collecting statistics for female sex abuse that they noticed males responding to the questions. It has only been recently...probably after guys aged 15 and younger that male stats are recorded. The whole field of male sexual abuse victims is really very young, new and open for exploration. Even today, many "enlightened"(?) professionals question if the stats are "really inflated" - AND THEY ARE NOT!! Books for younger males are coming along! 80% of the guys I provide counseling for are male victims of sexual abuse. There is a long waiting list for those who need treatment. There are pamphlets available from Safer Society aimed at young boy victims but they may be a little infantile for you. Perhaps as I was helping my generation address (my)the male victim's needs, YOU GUYS are in a position to help guys in your age bracket to find the help they need. You can work with guys here at the site (Nathan is keenly interested in this area and many Board members as well as professionals). The needs you have are needs other guys will need as well. I've had to recover from sexual abuse and needed to go get what I needed. There was very little out there so I had to "make it happen". What can you do to get your needs met? The possibilities are endless!! Hope this isn't too long but I've had these things deep inside for a long time.

Howard

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#34968 - 05/08/05 10:31 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
ScottyTodd Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 1561
Loc: Pennsylvania
Kev - You, Charlie and every guy on here have every right to share how you feel! No apologies!! One of the great opportunities on this site is to be open and honest...and I really, really appreciate that. This site has been growing from a little seedling planted by the Seekers struggling from pain and as we all join those seekers and share information we feel and experience, that seedling gets stronger and the roots sink deeper. You have a part in seeking along with all in our community!! I hope you never stop sharing and opening up because then, we stop seeking and the secrets take over. "Let the sunshine in and the shadows and fears will go away!" AS FOR THE BOOK? I searched it out. Don't have a copy but ordered one!! Unfortunately it was the last in stock. Most everywhere I looked, it was out of stock. I'll let you know about it when my copy arrives. It sounds like an exciting book; however, I've got excited and disappointed before!!

Howard

_________________________
If you think you can or you can't - you're right!.......anon
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!.....anon
You're very normal for the abnormal situation you've been through..............S. Todd

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#34969 - 05/08/05 10:59 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kev
I have followed this long topic, it's been a good one that we can all learn from.

But your comments about the books being aimed at adults stunned me.
These two books by Mike Lew and Mic Hunter are regarded as being about the best of their kind, I've nothing but respect for them both - but then I'm 51 and started my recovery in 1999. So they're aimed squarely at me.

As I think about what I've got out of these books, and it's a great deal, I can see your point; young men are 'included' but not given specific information.
I do believe however that there is still much that young men can gain from these books, but I agree totaly that something aimed at 'you' would be very welcome.

And if anyone does know of something, then please shout up.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#34970 - 05/08/05 11:03 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#34971 - 05/09/05 02:45 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
roadrunner Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 22045
Loc: Carlisle, PA
To Kev and Charlie,

I totally understand your frustration at the literature on this field, but I have to say at first I was surprised, as someone else has said. Victims No Longer was an extremely important book for me to discover, so I went back to it to see what could be wrong with it.

And of course you are right! I thought it was wonderful because it addressed me and helped me personally. But I can see that while Mike Lew's book would have a lot of information for you, as you say, it isn't addressed to you. I tried to put myself in your place, and suddenly the book looked entirely different. Childhood here is always the past, and the survivor's world is that of adult experience. So you have made an important contribution by pointing this out.

That said, please bear in mind that, as Howard has explained, this field is a very new one. Not all areas are as well covered as they should be, or as they will be within a few years from now. The books you mention were written to address the situation of adult men coming forward with stories of child abuse and needing help. As you know, it is a very troubling thing even to consider telling your story, and at that time the people who were stepping forward were almost all grown men talking about things that happened to them long ago. So these books were written to address that situation. Now, of course, it is different, and teenagers such as yourselves are also finding their voice. So I am sure we will soon begin to see literature that is closer to what you need.

We also need to think about what audience the book is written for. For example, Kevin, you live on a farm while I am very much a city guy (though my background is rural). Suppose we both see a book about farm life that is written for people planning on moving out of the city and starting a farm. I would look at that book and think this is very interesting, while you might think it is quite elementary and even ridiculous. That would be because we represent different audiences. Many of the books you might pick up are not written even for adult survivors; they are written for the professional therapists and counsellors who help survivors. These books are part of the way in which professionals discuss their ideas and research and thus improve the services they can offer.

That said, claim your voice and speak up. Don't be afraid to state your mind and never feel that you have to apologize for your feelings. But the changes you need will come all the more quickly if you make it clear what you want. Charlie, you say it is a grownup world and you f-cking hate it. Excellent. Now what exactly needs to change? What are your ideas? There are no absolutely right or wrong answers here, and certainly there are no stupid ones. Let the world know what you think.

Finally, Kev and Charlie, remember what has been said here already a few times. You actually do contribute here, and in a very important way. The voices of young survivors are not just wanted, they are needed, and by many people personally for all sorts of reasons. To name only one that I find very helpful, what you both say in your various posts shows a lot of courage and insight, and it gives me hope and allows me to believe that things are actually becoming a lot better than they were when I was a boy. That I find not only refreshing, but also empowering.

Larry

_________________________
Nobody living can ever stop me
As I go walking my freedom highway.
Nobody living can make me turn back:
This land was made for you and me.
(Woody Guthrie)

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#34973 - 05/11/05 12:25 AM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
DannyT Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/03
Posts: 402
Hi Kev,

You're asking a lot when you ask somebody to just listen and not listen how he wants .

How do you cut yourself away from what you think you hear?

I felt really bad after my post last night to Charlie in another thread, because after reading it I felt like I was explaining things too hard. I was responding to questions he asked, so I sure as hell was listening. But I had answers (my experience) to share, and I suddenly felt the difference. When I was a kid I had no answers. Now I know so many words worth of knowing and can write forever. Long dead blah blah blah knowledge and experience.

If I just listened like I would have as a kid, all I could do is say, "Yeah, I know what you mean." Now when I talk it can be deeper than that, but I don't talk the same way.

If I pretended I didn't know stuff, I'd be lying. And I've been in college for forever, so I'm used to talking in big words and phrases that go on forever. And I'm so used to explaining things I probably talk lectures aloud in my sleep. But no matter what I might sound like in my responses, I'm always honest, and I think just about everybody here is, too. So there's trying to hear and trying to understand everywhere, there's just not always a lot of easy success .

That's the problem with not being telepathic, I guess.

Danny


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#34974 - 05/11/05 06:35 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Kev and Charlie, I agree that we all should listen to what you say, and many more guys here are doing just that.
There is not a lot written specifically for boys who are going through this, because boys don't have a support network like MS. It is a place where you are anonymous, so you can post pretty much what you really think.
The reason that there is not much for boys to read, is that it has not been studied in much depth, because boys just live in silence.
Nobody has a right to tell you what to do, not in here, the mods will tell you that, but we will listen.
I worked as an advisor for 3yrs in the community.
An advisor does not give advice, but rather explores the issue and works around the problem.
It was one hell of a job, but it had its rewards.
Maybe that is how it is in here, or it should be,

hope you are OK,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#34975 - 05/11/05 10:31 PM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
ForeverFighting Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: New Mexico, USA
Maybe all of us are the same. Maybe we all want someone to crawl into our skin and feel how bad it feels to be me. I don't feel bad all the time, but when I do, I come here. And here there are my brothers who've been through similar stuff. They don't need in my skin. They already feel it. I don't know how old most of the guys here are, and I don't really want to know. So this man I've been pouring out my feelings to and he to me--I find out he's in his 50's. Suddenly I think perp. But he hasn't changed. Has he? I don't want to know ages.

Kev came in here and said, I'm a kid. So now we think, what, that we can help him because we're so old and wise. I feel it. I'm trying to help or protect me, the me I was when I had no one to help or protect me as a kid, no one to talk to. Maybe if we didn't know how old Kev was we'd act differently.

We're all here for you Kev. It's been tough for us, and sometimes I feel like I'm all alone, but this is where real men who've been SA feel. And they speak about the unspeakable. I'm not finding that anywhere else.

_________________________
ForeverFighting

"This search for the truth--it's not for the faint of heart."--Goren on 'Law & Order: CI'
"The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."--Isaiah 65:17

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#34976 - 05/12/05 12:33 AM Re: Journal 1 (triggers?)
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Kev
you have no need to apologise at all, and I hope this discussion continues - because it obviously needs to.

My point about young men being included in Mike Lew's book was about the wealth of practical information that isn't age related, the stuff about the psychological process that any survivor of any age will feel. And we do have a lot in common, a lot of what you've written previously in this topic I can relate to and I didn't disclose until I was 46yo.

But there are things that are lost to my memory about how I felt and acted when I was a teenager / young man, and times have changed so much since then as well.
I think that most young people are so much more aware of their influences now, compared to the late 60's. TV and the media talk about things that weren't even whispered amongst friends back then. We might have had the swinging 60's and the sexual revolution, but the access to knowledge was nothing like it is today.

Given that, I can see why you're pissed off with only having access to information written by my generation and generally aimed at us as well.
You do have different needs and expectations, that's a fact.

"We" are also quick to say that "You're lucky to be dealing with it now, and not leaving it until middle age". Which also pisses young people off, but from our perspective we genuinly feel that way because we reflect on all of our years of pain that might have been avoided. It says more about us than the young man we say it to, that's for sure, and it doesn't acknowledge the different situation and feelings of someone dealing with their abuse when it's still so fresh in their memory, and that's a lack of understanding on our part.
I hope it's not arrogance on our part. It's natural for people to pass on experience, and for people to seek guidance from other peoples experiences. But that should be a two-way thing without any boundaries such as age, sex, beliefs or anything else. I've always said that if a space alien offered me help with my recovery then I'd take it gladly.

To exchange any information or wisdom, asking or giving, entails listening on both sides, and at the risk of sounding like some patronizing old git, the statement you make - "I want you to listen to me and not tell me its something else. That is what I hate about arguing with grownups -- you dont listen. You always know better. You wont hear me no matter how bad I tell you it hurts." - is something heard in homes across the world, from all young people. I said it so many times to my parents that I can distinctly remember it. I usually shouted it as I stormed out the door.
Do 'we' listen? we do our best I suppose, but like my parents didn't fully understand the times and the way we thought in the 60's, 'we' probably don't understand what its like to be young right now.
Anyway, this discussion has certainly made me think about how I listen to young people.


Quote:
Thats grownups. I talked about really specific reasons why these books dont speak to me. Never mind. None of my reasons count. None of my examples get discussed. Its enough for a grownup to say "I do believe..." and everything I said gets blown away. That sux.
ALL of your reasons count, they are very important to you and your generation, probably less important to my generation for obvious reasons - we're already well catered for for a start.
I think you'd agree that not everything in the books you mention is useless to you, there must be some bits that speak to you as an individual regardless of age?
But the rest of the book(s) don't speak to you, which is not good news for you. But if 'we' re-write those books with young people in mind then it'll almost certainly become the patronizing garbage that's written in the "hanging with the dudes" style. Utter bullshit.

So who's going to write the books that help young people recover? I love writing, I have enough stuff to fill a book and more, but I wouldn't be so naive to think anything I wrote would appeal to young readers. The books have to come from the young people who are healing right now.
And what reason is there for someone to not go and write such a book? None, I see posts written here by young men that beg to be read by a wider audience.

Quote:
"but I agree totaly that something aimed at 'you' would be very welcome."

Dave that hurts so bad. Like I dont disrespect you yeah? Really dog. But you agree about what I need? I didnt ask you.
Yes, I do agree with what you need, absolutely. But even though I agree, I might not be able to deliver.
I'm saying that the books and information currently available are great books for me and my generation, so naturally I believed that most survivors would also find them useful, allowing for personal taste of course. But the thought that they were age specific didn't occur to me, until you pointed out that they don't reach you and your generation.
I quickly looked at the ones I've got, and have read often, and had to agree with you that they did seem aimed at 'us', although I have very little comprehension of what might be missing as far as younger readers are concerned.
I can see 'what's there' - but don't know 'what's missing'.

Sometimes we need a kicking to wake us up from our comfort zones, and this topic is doing just that, thank you.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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