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#348785 - 12/21/10 09:40 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: blaidd
...there is constant stream of expression of implied and internalised homophobia in the male survivor community, not just this site, and I'm simply over it.


well, i for one don't necessarily agree that it is severe as that. i think there are two paths, one i'd describe to fit the members of this board who had/have been sexualized by a man or men and they resent the actions forced upon them. the second path is, say, someone like my boss who simply believes gays are an abomination in god's eyes.

i believe that the first path can be enlightened... maybe by you, maybe by a face2face friend. that second group i think can only change if their son turns out to be gay.

nonetheless, maybe the best a gay guy can do is continue the course in isolation. hold his head high. smile. never let them see you sweat. take the knocks. work his butt off without complaining. and continue to seek a little solitude to refresh for the next battle. and, off this board, that describes my m.o.

_________________________
Jeff

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#348800 - 12/21/10 10:46 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: westchesterguy]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
Originally Posted By: diamondheart
...The GBT section gives me a level of safety...


this is more a general question diamondheart, not directly pointed at you. i understand physical "safety." and in my case as already stated, i cannot be gay and also keep my current job. so physical safety to me is silence, followed by some level of job security.

so, what is unsafe about posting comments, here of all places firstly, and coupled with the fact that no one knows who you are? what safety are we after here? emotional safety? protecting some gay brand image kind of safety? just overall avoidance of controversy?

if we can't just be upfront on all things, without holding back, can we still experience the full recovery process?



I guess in a way from the above response, I took it as you were questioning my recovery because you specifically were asking what made it unsafe about posting comments? Then you say "if we can't just be upfront on all things, without holding back, can we still experience the full recovery process?" Just because this is for malesurvivors, it doesn't mean that you should keep your boundaries wide open... But that is my opinion...

Just like if someone asked you why you feel unsafe about coming out at work... You have your reasons for doing them, it isn't about right or wrong, it just is...


Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
Originally Posted By: diamondheart
..your reasons for staying in the closet, it is your journey, not mine...
I wish others like you wouldn't have to question my recovery but for what ever reason it happens. I realize it is nothing personal but still it bothers me....


i do feel need to respond:

1) i'm not a closet case. i'm gay.

where i fail myself here is with inaction... i have this silly belief that gays in this country/community/ or on this board, actually care. people giggle when i say that i'd be fired for being gay. it is hilarious when we think about it, right?

so, consider the laughter. and that i equate the so called "gay community at large" to be selfish bastards. i mean - let's be real, thousands upon thousands of gay hiring managers have given me leads to a new job... right? lol.

and that same gay community probably considers me to be selfish too for not raising a rainbow flag and suing my boss for symbolically ending discrimination against gays, and then turning around to march on washington demanding marriage, etc. etc.

well, life doesn't work that way - in my view. i gave at the office years ago, and gave too much. there is nothing left for me to give. this time, i need to be on the receiving end. and the line is simply dead.

i've got at best 10 years left of a career, 15 years left to live and as far as i'm concerned now, its all down hill baby from here - just hang on to avoid coming up roadkill before its time.

2) i didn't question your recovery practices. i simply stated that an airing of homophobia can lead to positive change.


I would also like to point out, that I never said or applied that you were a closet case. I am not even sure what that is... I don't hold it against you for not telling anyone at work... You have to do what you have to do...

Any of us can get fired at our work places because we are gay... I would never laugh at you or anyone else at the fact that you could get fired... I think it is a horrible injustice... Plus if that wasn't enough we can lose our housing, risk getting gay bashed, not visit our partners in the hospital, estate rights, and the list goes on...

In the past, I have been able to do more when it comes to activism but right now I can only do what I can do... I gotta take care of me, before I can help anyone else... So for the time being I am having to sit on the sidelines but that doesn't mean I can't scream and shout!!!

You seem to have your mind made up, in regards to things like activism and the gay community... Sure parts of both have unflattering qualities but like everything in life there are great, wonderful parts... If it wasn't for people standing up, nothing would change... and you don't have to stand up in a public way, like in Washington DC... You can stand up here or wherever you are...

Plus I understand that not everyone is able to stand up and that is okay. Just like survivors, we are all at different paths in our journey... I don't just stand up for myself, but I stand up for everyone us...

Sure I know you don't me... and it is easy to think that everyone is against you... I have been there... but some people do care...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348805 - 12/21/10 11:13 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: blaidd
Overt homophobia is when your partner dies and his family breaks into his apartment the morning after and strips it bare of his and your belongings. Then to find you have no legal basis to fight this crime and get your belongings back because the "state" doesn't recognise your relationship. I've been there.

Overt homophobia is when you are being assaulted and being called a derogatory name. I've been there.

Overt homophobia is when you are discriminated against in subtle or overt ways within the healthcare system or the workplace, I've been there.

But that's not what my post was originally about.

efm said it wonderfully: "Gay men can have a difficult battle when their own internalized homophobia is triggered by the realization that they are gay and I think the same is true of straight male survivors dealing with feelings of same-sex attraction."

That's my point, there is constant stream of expression of implied and internalised homophobia in the male survivor community, not just this site, and I'm simply over it.

Even though I understand the why's and how's as to why it exists it still frustrates the heck out of me.


Blaidd, it breaks my heart that not only have you had to deal with CSA but all of the above! I am sorry that you had to go through that... You didn't deserve any of that! None of us does...

These are the reasons why I stand up! If we don't stand up, even if it is in little ways, then nothing will change!

Voicing your concerns over homophobia to me is huge! You are standing up for not only yourself but others!

I too am tired of having to always fight. I wish it were easier!

Originally Posted By: blaidd
I really regret raising this whole issue and wish I'd kept my mouth shut.

I feel for guys who struggle with the issue of SSA. It is not my intention to be attacking anyone who has to come to terms with it as part of their healing journey. I understand the distress this issue causes those who are dealing with it.

But as a gay man I simply have a hard time reconciling the two points of view. One point of view is being gay and seeing it as a beautiful expression of our humanity. The other is that straight or confused men having same sex attraction is scene as a pathology which is self-destructive and needs to be repressed.

I feel that this latter point of view gives people a license to express feelings that come across to me as homophobic and I feel uncomfortable with this.

I have to learn how not to take this personally.


I am very glad that you did bring up the subject, it is very important! I stand with you!

NO ONE can blame everything on triggers, homophobia still exists even if it is not obvious! This website is not exempt from it... We have a chance and opportunity to open others eyes... Sure not everyone will understand or listen but there are others who will...

Sure it is complicated and complex especially when it comes to survivors dealing with SSA and the CSA... Sure people project all the time... but it doesn't make it right or less harmful... I wonder how much easier it would be for them, if there wasn't this stigma with being with another man... Sure the csa can cloud things, but its this idea that being with a man is a bad thing... and it just plays into all the other messages we hear about it being wrong, a sin and bad...

I believe there is nothing wrong with voicing your feelings and concerns... I am glad you had the courage to stand up... Even I struggled to say something... I wanted to but was too afraid....

I also believe that other gay people have internalized homophobia, how could one not with the messages we recieve on a daily basis...

Even though we have made strides when it comes to equality, we have to acknowledge that being gay is still really tough! It isn't easy for anyone, whether you are in the closet or not!

I mean we live during a time where people think it's okay that we don't have equal rights. Plus some feel it is okay to treat us like second class citizens by calling us names, harming us physically and discriminating against us...

There is ALOT to overcome! But we are in this together... I really hope Blaidd that you continue to give yourself your voice, I want to hear it! I understand if you feel you have to take some space but know I really appreciate and believe in all you say!!!

And it goes for everyone else too... This is our place to talk about things, even things that are difficult and touchy... The key is how we treat each other... Sure we are going to disagree sometimes but that doesn't mean its bad... I try take care with everything I say or do but I am human and have emotions... I get triggered too.... We all do.

Not too long ago, I hide who I was because of others insecurities and fears... and the fact that standing up can sometimes put you in the line of fire! I now realize I am letting all the nay sayers win... Letting them have control... So I am going to push through my fears, stand up for what I believe in and allow myself the voice I was born with...

I have shared this quote before but I believe it is worth repeating:

Quote:
Our Deepest Fear
by Marianne Williamson

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”


_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348807 - 12/21/10 11:35 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Thank you for your understanding and compassion. smile


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