And with equal respect, until such time as the "true christians" you speak of make some credible attempt to clean house and/or drown out these "other christians" that are damaging their reputation, I have no sympathy for the consequences they suffer.

-efm

I am confused, who are you saying is hiding behind "others" truths?

The sad thing I have no idea that GOD loves me? If we are all children of GOD, why would a parent not protect a child? or even put their own child in the mouths of the beast?

I think that is what I have a big issue with the whole "Being Saved" as an adult thing. People talk about needing to get saved and I wonder where were these adults when us as children were getting abused? Why didn't they save us then???

Organized religion may work for others, but it doesn't for me.

Derek,
I just want you to know you're not alone in the struggle with these thoughts. I grew up in the Baptist sect of religion and a very strict part of it at that. Much of it was used to justify what was done to me. So in many ways, I really don't have a use for people proclaiming God to me.

Than you add into it the many who see gays as making a sinful choice and I'm sorry but I can't deal with these people. Most of the people who say these things either have never read their bible and understand what it says or they just follow blindly what their church preaches.

For me, I've learned that life exists without all this religious stuff. I'm learning that there is so much more in life than what some religious institution tries to brainwash me with. As a result, life has drastically improved and I've been with the love of my life for over 11 years now. If I would have kept listening to the church, I most likely wouldn't still be alive today.

I think each of us has to find our own way through life and find what matters. It isn't necessarily what some group of people tell us we should believe or shame us into thinking that they have the answers. There is much evidence out there to suggest otherwise but most won't look at it. Find out what fits for you and realize that it should be an ever growing and changing process.

Don

Oh god, the god conversation.

I was raised in a Mennonite community.

I walked out of church when I was 12 or 13, during the most vitriolic sermon I had ever heard.

Over the years I have mostly lost what little faith I had.

The god of the various churches is the god of the human races infancy, he she or it acts like a child, viewing the world in black and white, and how do I get more converts. The human race is at a pre-teen age (collectively) we need a deity that is an adult.

In my opinion, stolen for Greg Bear, god is the father that loves us and wants us to grow. He is the mother that we call upon when we don't know how to continue, she is the child that is ever curious and joyous.

If you would like to read a bit, check out Matthew chapter 26. One of the statements in there goes something like go into your closet and pray, trust not men that say they speak the word of god.

Organized religion is in the end pretty self serving, and since its power is based upon life after death (or the denial thereof), evil (at least politicians cannot hang around, in this world, for eternity).

I would say dump the religion, for it has long since dumped you.

As a group, I like religious people, they have faith, which allows them to be better people, but I increasingly dislike professional priests. On a parish level priests can be an amazing transformer, on an international level, they cause more damage and chaos than pretty much anything else. My examples, the Pope (look at this jackass; contraception, even to save lives is a sin, lets try and start a holy war with the Hindus/Islam, let us roll back social justice by a hundred years. Jim Jones in Guyana. The various Ayatollahs and terrorism, etc, etc, etc.

I will continue to try to be a decent human being and if that isn't good enough for god, I will join Mark Twain in hell, with all of his friends and mine.

This is one of the longest posts I have ever made, I guess the T and I will be talking about religion soon.

Thanks Mike this made me laugh.

For some reason that laughter reminded the little boy in me of a rather amusing thing that happened when I was 4 years old. It was xmas time and my Grandparents, who were devout Catholics, took me to a xmas mass. When people started singing a hymm, I stood on the pew and started singing Happy Birthday Jesus rather loudly. My grandfather was so infuriated and embarrassed, because he saw himself as a pillar of the community, that he demanded my grandmother take me home. We had to walk many kilometres home while he stayed at the service. I was a bad bad boy for doing that.

As an adult I see this as the little boy being cute and playful and I bet that the other parishioners saw it this way too. My relationship with religion went downhill from there.

I was abused in my grandparents house. To the outside world my grandparents played the role of Good Catholics, while on the inside it was dark and sinister. They knew what one of their sons was doing to me and they did nothing. My grandfather turned his back on him and tried to pretend it didn't happen. I suspect my grandfather was trying to hide his own shame of what he'd done to his own sons. While my grandmother praised my perp as a saint in order to hide her guilt and fuel my denial. She always used to tell me while I was growing up, that we were born into this world to suffer. What a twisted bitch.

I vowed I would never be like these people. While I can not blame Catholicism for my abuse I do have a real issue with the fact that I was surrounded by the hypocrisy of individuals who professed to be good Christians. It took me a long time to untangle this and realise that they weren't. Heaven help me if they had lived long enough to find out I was gay, haha.

So Derek I relate to what you said about not being protected. I chose to follow my own path. There is no rule that says you have to follow the same beliefs of your family of origin. You can find your own path, and in doing so find the healing and the love that you deserve to have.

Mike FTW!

-efm

My heart goes out to you guys .

We have tremendous gifts and yet we choose to believe lies about ourselves.

Having the capacity to hold both masculine and feminine is a huge gift. How we express our sexuality is both unique and sacred.

Let's not take on the garbage that some would like us to. That belongs in the past, as the abuse we suffered.

Let's know that we are truly loved and that we belong here among all the world's people. And heaven, the gates of heaven are open to all who seek sincerely. We are Worthy, brothers. We are Worthy.

I personally struggle seeing god as a HE... probably because of my abuser was a guy and my relationship with my dad...

GOD was always viewed as someone to fear. A punisher of sins.

I don't even like the word GOD or Jesus... Even though I know Jesus was a good man... It is how frightened my father made me... The bible and such is not for me...

There are parts of me that know the truth and there are still other parts of me (probably my inner child) that still believes what I have been told.

If I can get in the a decent frame of mine in regards to a higher power, I like to think of it like Mother Earth... I have always connected more with the female spirit and tend to be more comforted to think my higher power as a female. though i tend to believe our high power has no gender...

right now, I can't even think about all of that...

It is hard to not believe the lies, when they are all I have ever known. It is a form of brain washing...

I thought I was over it but I merely buried it deep.

Thank you everyone for all your kind words and your wisdom. It means a lot..

huggs.

Derek, I see a courageous man asking deep and important questions about his life and his relationship with Spirit.

I honor the way you choose to conceive of Spirit, Mother Earth. It is individual and beautiful as it is.

One of the things I like about Buddhism is that they don't really have a form for the Creator- they just call it 'emptiness'. And yet they acknowledge the great Love of it, and how everything arises from it and returns to it...

As someone who is questioning their beliefs, you are a leader and not a heretic. After all, you were created with an inquisitive mind.

thank you very much for your kind words... i really appreciate them... I really needed to hear this. huggs