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#348458 - 12/18/10 01:24 PM "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
It's been a past topic here, so I just wanted to note that the US Senate just took a cloture vote to override a promised filibuster from Senator John McCain. The vote succeeded 63 to 33.

This means there will be no filibuster, and it's expected than at 3pm ET today there will be a final vote to repeal "Don't Ask Don't Tell". Gay Veteran's and Survivors, thank you for your honorable service.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348465 - 12/18/10 03:28 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
One of the best news of the year... Finally!

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#348493 - 12/19/10 08:40 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: diamondheart]
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I'm glad to see this happen. Even though I have not been in the military, I don't think being gay has anything to do with serving your country. I can't imagine what it has been for these guys to have had to live in silence. There are so many ignorant people in this country yet with some of the comments that were spoken by the people in congress and those that comment around the internet. I'm just glad that this finally was repealed. It is the best news I've heard in a long time!

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#348532 - 12/19/10 07:02 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: MrDon]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
It certainly is great news smile


Top
#348841 - 12/22/10 01:42 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: blaidd]
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
I missed the signing ceremony on TV but watched a YouTube video and it brought tears to my eyes.

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#348846 - 12/22/10 02:29 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: MrDon]
petercorbett Online   content
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2439
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, my brothers,

A great day indeed. We have always been there,our blood was just as red as theirs. Thousands have served honorably, in all our wars. Many are hero's too. Many have been discharged in disgrace. And many will now come back in.

But, we must beware of the homophobia that will surely come. And perhaps things just might get nasty. Not from our side. It will be a learning experience on both sides.

A historic well earned victory.

A rainbow warrior retired from the military.

Heal well my brothers, heal well.

Pete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


Top
#348859 - 12/22/10 07:14 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: petercorbett]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
What really touched me, that communicates the gravity of what this means for those who have served in silence, shame, and fear, begins around 4:30 in this clip from the Rachel Maddow program.



-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#348881 - 12/22/10 10:49 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Thank you for sharing that video. I had not seen it. I say for me, this gives me hope that maybe the country is beginning to change on this subject. I'd love for my partner and I to be able to exchange vows (when it is recognized). Taking care of legal matters is one thing but it still doesn't guarantee anything. My heart goes out to all the people who were discharged because of this stupid policy that got implemented.

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#348882 - 12/22/10 11:05 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: MrDon]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon


Lt. Dan Choi gave Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid his West Point ring in July of this year. Now he has it back.

He later tweeted:



It's a good day.

~Matty


Top
#348901 - 12/23/10 07:10 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: Moortje]
petercorbett Online   content
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2439
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, my brothers,

My Sequoia brother, thanks for sharing that video. And my brother Moortje as well.

I had followed some of these brave Air Force personal and their struggle in the Air Force times.

I sure hope that they can resume their military careers with the honor that they deserve.

In the spirit of the season, of that boy born 2000+years ago.
I wish my brothers here a Merry & healing Christmas.

A proud rainbow warrior, retired from the Air Force.

Pete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


Top
#349111 - 12/26/10 09:49 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: petercorbett]
Tinman Offline


Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 359
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
Never thought this possible back when I served.

This is a great thing for this nation and for civil and human rights.

Now all of us who served in silence can finally stand proud. Of our service. And the nation that we served, who finally woke up!

_________________________
Tinman
"I finally have my heart!"

To the perps: Don't worry about me coming after you. But you damn well better watch out for God! "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord

Top
#349123 - 12/27/10 06:33 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: Tinman]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
Somebody asked me about this and expected me, as a conservative Christian, to cry the blues. I also know it means a lot to a lot of people. My reaction is that not much will change really, other than nobody being officially kicked out for being gay. It is a good thing from the standpoint that it removes a security risk by lessening the blackmail potential of gay service people.

Most gay service people will go about their business without the fear that a slip up can end their career. A few will be obnoxious about it and will promptly be put out for whatever convenient reason can be concocted.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

Top
#349161 - 12/28/10 01:04 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: catfish86]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: catfish86
A few will be obnoxious about it and will promptly be put out for whatever convenient reason can be concocted.


The only "put out" people I've heard coming from gay quarters about this is in pointing out the important fact that although repealing DADT removes the discrimination-as-policy initiative, it's certainly no PROTECTION for gay service-members from being fired for being gay.

This will certainly reduce the number of discharges for that reason, but it will still occur, just as all gay people are frequently at risk of being fired for their orientation as we don't enjoy federal anti-discrimination protections. Any bigoted superior just has to concoct a convenient, phony reason to terminate a gay worker/service-member. I'm lucky to have never directly experienced workplace discrimination for being gay, but that's because I have had the good fortune of working for secular, liberal employers.

I know there is some debate in the gay community over whether such protections are effective, but that's a debate for us to have and to decide on our own. We still have a long way to go to full equality, unfortunately. But we'll get there, and the repeal of DADT is one big victory to celebrate on the way to making it happen! smile

~Matty


Top
#349179 - 12/28/10 10:23 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: catfish86]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
catfish,

I appreciate your supportive words here. It just goes to remind a person that labels do not cover all that a person is or what they may or may not believe in.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

Top
#349181 - 12/28/10 10:37 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: Moortje]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Matty,

There is more work to be done and this is a huge step in the public eye. This is not what those who put DADT into place ever expected. Whether they realize it or not they did more for thrusting the needs of the gay and lesbian communities "out" than anything else has. We should send them thank you cards - as well as some Depends when they mess on themselves. smile

I agree we should relish this victory for all who serve in the military and the ramifications that it will eventually have for all gays and lesbians in our country.

We are not asking for anything more than anyone else has - just the same.


Daryl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9P45Q8f7n0

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

Top
#349183 - 12/28/10 12:03 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: prisonerID]
traillius Offline


Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 260
Great.. Now if only Obama would focus on defending the nation and the constitution with as much fervor. But I am not holding my breath for that...


Top
#349671 - 01/03/11 04:34 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: traillius]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota

Howdy my brothers & happy new year!

As one of the few members who deal with this issue first hand, I thought I should provide my perspective to those who never served in the military.

We'll see how this policy turns out in the long term. Personally, I hope it's a tempest in a teapot but that's to be seen. Here are some issues that are going to need to be addressed that you may/may not have considered.

-Do military chaplains retain the right to preach the Bible, Torah or Qu'ran verses that define homosexuality as a sin towards God? They should but it might take congressional action to ensure religious liberty for those who defend our freedoms by taking care of our military men/women's spiritual needs.

-What about base housing? Should heterosexual couples w/ kids have priority over gay/lesbian domestic partners w/out? You could argue both sides on this one.

-Do gay couples who both serve receive spousal/domestic partner preference in terms of duty station assignments, even if they're in states that don't recognize gay marriage/civil unions? Again, this will have to be ejudicated.

-What about homosexuality for those service members stationed in the middle East? Good luck holding hands or PDA's in Iraq, Quatar, Kuwait, Afghanistan or Turkey. You'll end up like that British couple who barely made it out of I think Bahrain w/out enduring a long harsh prison sentence. Food for thought when off base outconus.

Again, I personally don't care if someone's gay or straight in the military. I care about their work ethic, professionalism, intelligence, ability to improvise, commitment to discipline and respect for those both above and below them (Keep your mind out of the gutter wink ) in the officer and enlisted ranks.

Just as I don't care what girl some sailor banged in port last night, I don't want to hear about some guy who hooked up with another guy in Naples or Mayport. Keep it to yourself, regardless of sexual preference and you'll do well.


BTW, I've never heard of anyone being kicked out for being gay during my long long time in the service, both active and reserve in several branches. We had several gay guys in my Navy unit back in the 80's/90's and we could care less about their personal life. They were fellow sailors. They did their thing, we did ours and no one bothered them in their choice of sexual partners.

Usually, not always, there's more than just being gay that gets someone the boot from the service. If you're annoying, bad for moral, combative or just plain negative, DADT makes for an easy way to remove you from the unit, company, division, workcenter or squadron.


So, those are some things to consider no matter what side of the argument you fall upon.

Again, happy new year and hope to be in more contact this year.

Jay

_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Top
#349771 - 01/04/11 05:18 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: westsidej]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
The way people invalidate and minimise the experience of gays and lesbians etc is breath taking. Kudos to those very brave people who advocated for change, amidst the homophobia, negativity and down right ignorance that is so often displayed in this world.


Top
#349813 - 01/05/11 11:21 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: blaidd]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
It amazes me how people try to minimize the experiences of those who not just continue to endure but suffered centuries, if not millenia, of oppression and outright genocide to make their own cause seem more noble or equal in scale.

I wonder who's currently and historically been subjected to more discrimination in Australia, gays or Aborigines?

Would you rather be a tattoo faced Maori or a gay Kiwi in Christ Church?

Food for thought.

J


_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Top
#349821 - 01/05/11 01:05 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: westsidej]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
There is no hierarchy of pain and injustice. There is no competition to see who has suffered more and who is more worthy of having surcease from their pain or ill treatment.

I think we can agreed that *all* who are in pain and are treated unjustly deserve ease and justice.

Westsidej, I can see why blaidd might see your comment that "I've never heard of anyone being kicked out for being gay..." as saying that there have been no consequences for lesbian and gay service people - essentially denying that they have suffered any ill-effects from DADT. I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

I may be missing it, but I don't see anyone trying to minimize the oppression and mistreatment suffered by other groups in this discussion. While I'm sure some people might do this, I don't understand how it is relevant to this discussion.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#349849 - 01/05/11 05:34 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: westsidej]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
In my humble opinion, the tone of voice in your original post was disparaging and patronizing towards gay people. I was simply pointing this out.

I could dissect your post and point out my concerns, but I do not come to this forum to defend myself or others against the negative attitude towards gay people that some people believe they have the right to express, regardless of their own sexuality.

I have better things to do with my time.


Top
#349984 - 01/07/11 12:32 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: blaidd]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
EFM, I agree w/ you and yes, I was just pointing out my empirical evidence as a member of the US military for almost 20 years.

Kind of makes sense you would consult with someone who served both before and during DADT for some real life experience instead of a college freshman or some grandstanding politician. And a CSA survivor no less.

Anyone can speak out on DADT here in a respectful manner so far as I know, but those that are for keeping the policy in place seem to have their rights to speak frequently muted or muzzled under the guise of either political correctness or the typical homophobic response.

Again, I hope it works out as well or better than expected on both sides. I made that point lucidly so I am not sure how that constitutes derogatory language in any sense of the word.

To the brother from down under, you may not know this but here in the US, at least for now, we have a right to be racists, anti-semites, bigots, neo-nazis, black nationalists, sexists, homophobes, la raza members, Islamophobes, Christophobes...and the first amendment to the Constitution ensures free speech of the most heinous nature. Non-inflammatory speech needs no protection.

One of our nation's founders Thomas Jefferson summed it up when he said
Quote:
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."


We can disagree but should at least respect each other as a person, which I feel you did not since you already judged me as being anti-gay without knowing anything about me. Think about that.

J


_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Top
#349993 - 01/07/11 01:56 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: westsidej]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Westsidej,

I'm not sure what discussion you are taking part in, but the one I'm taking part in is where you've received the benefit of the doubt from me.

The only certain determination I've made is that you are in pain, like so many of us here.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#350025 - 01/07/11 11:30 AM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
EFM, I know that I received the benefit of the doubt from you, just as I put my trust in you, even if we don't always see eye to eye.

This was in reference to our friend from the outback who insinuated I was either anti-gay or a homophobe after posting a thoughtful rational post about DADT that may not have been in total consort with his views.

I apologize if there was any confusion on my part.

Still much love here for both of you guys, even if not reciprocated. wink

J


_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Top
#350044 - 01/07/11 03:34 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: westsidej]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Ah, now I see what happened. I'm also from Australia (moved to the US more than 15 years ago) and it wasn't clear who you were referring to.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#350138 - 01/08/11 05:17 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: westsidej]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: westsidej

Howdy my brothers & happy new year!

As one of the few members who deal with this issue first hand, I thought I should provide my perspective to those who never served in the military.

We'll see how this policy turns out in the long term. Personally, I hope it's a tempest in a teapot but that's to be seen. Here are some issues that are going to need to be addressed that you may/may not have considered.

-Do military chaplains retain the right to preach the Bible, Torah or Qu'ran verses that define homosexuality as a sin towards God? They should but it might take congressional action to ensure religious liberty for those who defend our freedoms by taking care of our military men/women's spiritual needs.

-What about base housing? Should heterosexual couples w/ kids have priority over gay/lesbian domestic partners w/out? You could argue both sides on this one.

-Do gay couples who both serve receive spousal/domestic partner preference in terms of duty station assignments, even if they're in states that don't recognize gay marriage/civil unions? Again, this will have to be ejudicated.

-What about homosexuality for those service members stationed in the middle East? Good luck holding hands or PDA's in Iraq, Quatar, Kuwait, Afghanistan or Turkey. You'll end up like that British couple who barely made it out of I think Bahrain w/out enduring a long harsh prison sentence. Food for thought when off base outconus.

Again, I personally don't care if someone's gay or straight in the military. I care about their work ethic, professionalism, intelligence, ability to improvise, commitment to discipline and respect for those both above and below them (Keep your mind out of the gutter wink ) in the officer and enlisted ranks.

Just as I don't care what girl some sailor banged in port last night, I don't want to hear about some guy who hooked up with another guy in Naples or Mayport. Keep it to yourself, regardless of sexual preference and you'll do well.


BTW, I've never heard of anyone being kicked out for being gay during my long long time in the service, both active and reserve in several branches. We had several gay guys in my Navy unit back in the 80's/90's and we could care less about their personal life. They were fellow sailors. They did their thing, we did ours and no one bothered them in their choice of sexual partners.

Usually, not always, there's more than just being gay that gets someone the boot from the service. If you're annoying, bad for moral, combative or just plain negative, DADT makes for an easy way to remove you from the unit, company, division, workcenter or squadron.


So, those are some things to consider no matter what side of the argument you fall upon.

Again, happy new year and hope to be in more contact this year.

Jay


Over 13,000 service members have been discharged due to DADT.

It went beyond someone coming out... Service members were being investigated for being gay, they had their email accounts search and various other different invasions of privacy... They were not following the Don't Ask portion of the policy...

Plain and simple this policy discriminated against others, regardless of how you feel about it... Sure anyone can voice their opinions because of their constitutional right but it doesn't make it morally right!

I would also like to point out that many gay couples have children too. It is not just straight couples that have kids.

I am not sure your point in responding to this thread? This thread was started in response to DADT being overturned, it wasn't a debate as to whether it was right or wrong. Surely you had to know posting a response like you did, would bring some heat? Maybe you didn't come off accross as homophobic but you certainly didn't come off accross sympahtetic or gay friendly. This section of MS is a place where we can feel safe in sharing our feelings and someone not gay responding like you did can come off accross differently.

In regards to your statement about others feeling their suffering is worse than others, that could be said for anyone... You can't compare the pain and suffering to another... Same could be said for survivors of CSA, there will always be someone who suffered more. It is about injustice, no matter how big or small!!!

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#350265 - 01/10/11 01:50 PM Re: "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Repeal [Re: diamondheart]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
Thanks to all who have chimed in on this topic. I've made my points, listened to others who agreed or had opposing viewpoints, both on/off-line, and it's time to move on, as the George Soros backed group says.

Final thoughts:
Myself and a few others here on ms who are veterans served with gay servicemembers in different branches of the military. IMO, I only saw them only as fellow sailors, not gay sailors or anything else. I didn't run out of the open bay showers when a gay sailor came in or feel uncomfortable at all. If anything, we ended up chatting about workload, leave, food, Norfolk...

Let's all agree & hope that repealing DADT goes well on all fronts and that everyone can serve with an air of mutual respect, trust, dedication to duty and continue keeping the greatest nation on God's green earth free and safe from oppression, both here and abroad.


Take care and have a great week.

J


_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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