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#348426 - 12/18/10 04:50 AM Is it just me?
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Lately when I read posts on MS I feel there is a lot of implied homophobia, even transphobia and mysogynism. Mind you I have struggled with this on and off, ever since I joined MS 10 years ago.

Is it just me and am I perceiving things in the wrong way?

I feel really uncomfortable and unsafe as a result. Not sure how to get around this feeling.

Maybe I am being triggered for some reason. Maybe I suffer from Heterophobia.

It is doing my head in.


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#348433 - 12/18/10 06:18 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
Darkheart Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 331
Loc: Illinois
I know what you are talking about ...for me, it's not so much homophobia, as much as the work some brothers are doing regarding ssa? I haven't experienced any outright homophobia, but i do detect a lot of wariness and also misunderstanding on the threads...

Each brother is on his own path ...many share the same fork on the road...and some will go the long route to avoid us...

_________________________
My Story...

http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthr...8711#Post348711

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#348437 - 12/18/10 09:34 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Darkheart]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
Take a breath, blaidd, that's what I do. It's hard to feel like everyone around you has a license to judge, demean, and dismiss you.

I've been experiencing some homophobia here on MS for a while and, sadly, today I think transphobia got added to the list.

For our straight brothers who were abused by men there is a lot of anger about what happened to them, and sometimes that anger gets channeled at gay men. It takes a while for those brothers to work it through. I try and give them a wide berth while they do that work and try not to take it personally.

I think the same is true of our brothers abused by women and this might the be source of some of the misogyny you are picking up. Certainly the presence of women on MS via the Friends and Family forum gets strong reactions, but I think we are the better for the perspective they bring us.

If you don't feel safe because of something you see on MS, please share that feeling with a moderator.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348464 - 12/18/10 03:27 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Blaidd, it is not just you... Funny enough I was talking about it last night with a friend...

I am learning to stay away from certain topics of conversation because they have nothing to do with me like topics like ssa or same age abusers... but that can be difficult when they invade their ways into the gay section here... Sure most of it isn't obvious, it is subtle but it is there. One of the things I am working on in my recovery is how others see me as. I have let others homophobia (religious) shape who I was and how I felt about myself. I am working to overcome this all. So when I see some things on here, it mirrors what I have endured in the past and I get horribly triggered.

I think part of it has to do with societies view on men liking other men. Sure things are getting better but many still see it as wrong and dirty. Many men struggle with coming out and having feelings towards men without CSA... Probably many survivors who are having SSA are afraid to be labeled gay and that is probably where I take some offense to it, like it is a bad thing to be gay.

For me, I have heard way to many times it is a lifestyle or a choice. So this is a touchy subject with me because I don't believe that is the case. I have always known for the most part that I was gay. Before I came out in 1995, the only thing I questioned was whether I was gay or nothing at all. Being straight was not an option for me.

I think it is important for our straight brothers to reconize that most abusers are not homosexual. It is very easy for someone to project their feelings onto someone else and that can make it tough on the person on the other end... We are also on a healing path of our own and not just from CSA. For two long I have taken into consideration everyone elses feelings and neglected mine in the process. I am working on overcoming this.

Not taking it personal is the key but that doesn't always make it any easier. I get tired of hearing the same things over and over... There also comes a point where it is nessassry for me to stand up for what I believe in and a time to walk away when I know my words will do nothing. Like when someone has their mind made up and won't listen to anything you have to say...

Each person is on their own journey and they must learn these things on their own but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate anything that is unhealthy for me... or remain silent.

Thanks again Blaidd for having the courage in posting this... huggs

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348475 - 12/18/10 06:50 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Derek Stephens
Each person is on their own journey and they must learn these things on their own but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate anything that is unhealthy for me... or remain silent.

Never a truer word was spoken. smile

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348476 - 12/18/10 07:17 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.

Originally Posted By: Derek Stephens
Not taking it personal is the key but that doesn't always make it any easier. I get tired of hearing the same things over and over... There also comes a point where it is nessassry for me to stand up for what I believe in and a time to walk away when I know my words will do nothing.


This sums up my feelings exactly and maybe contains the solution as well. I have been around long enough to see this pattern occur over and over and I am tired of it. Just because I understand the process of what straight or confused men go through in regard to SSA, for example, and their healing journeys does not diminish certain feelings I have of being invalidated, minimised or offended.

The struggle I am having is in being able to separate myself from the negative messages which abound and which are not overt, but implied or internalised expressions about being gay. Mind you when it comes to spirituality I feel like people think they have carte blanche to vilify gay men and this infuriates me, whenever that issue comes up.

As efm said I am just going to have to take a deep breath and like Derek maybe just walk away.


**** Possibly Triggering ****

The complicating factor in all this is that I think this issue is triggering me and that's why I start feeling unsafe. While I know that abuse is not necessarily about the sexual orientation of the perpetrators, I was abused by men who were fiercely "heterosexual", but who just happened to like boys on the side.

So while I haven't quite figured out the mechanics of why this issue is triggering me, I recognise and own the fact that it is and I am aware of it. Sigh...


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#348479 - 12/18/10 07:41 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
I'm sorry to hear that this is having such an effect on you, blaidd. If you want to chat in PM about anything, please let me know.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348481 - 12/18/10 09:37 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I really feel for you blaidd! I too get triggered and I don't always know how to handle it or what to say? For me I have had so many tell me or imply that being gay was wrong or bad that when I hear it today it just makes me want to stand up and scream! You can only put so much air into a balloon before it explodes! I too have also had to deal with the two cousins in the family who heterosexual that caused a great deal of harm but yet they are looked at better than me because I'm gay! I think you are doing the best thing for you by giving yourself a voice here! You aren't alone my dear friend! Huggs

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348494 - 12/19/10 08:41 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
You're not alone.. You're not imagining things. I've felt it too.

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

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#348499 - 12/19/10 10:27 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: blaidd
Lately when I read posts on MS I feel there is a lot of implied homophobia, ...


i'll weigh in with a different p.o.v.

i don't get the same conclusion. but maybe i'm looking at posts from a different perspective. i live in daily fear that my boss will find out. i should be the poster boy for suffering through this, quietly. (simply put i'd be fired, case closed, and lawsuits do nothing to keep food on the table or one's career on track.) i have no support from a loving, caring gay community.

that said, i think there is an important discussion to be had about homophobia. i embrace these discussions, i don't have to agree with points made, just as no one has to agree with mine, and i encourage the discourse as long as everyone just agrees to be civil.

i believe that misinformation is at the root of homophobia.

and while i simply cannot explain folsom st. fair to someone who asks me "why do all the gays do that" i do my best to explain that not all gays are alike. some of us just suffer in silence. some are ultra conservatives. some of us are still virgins at 47. some marry and raise society's unwanted, discarded children. some avoid the noise from outspoken gay activists, because even we are shocked at the selfishness they expose.

_________________________
Jeff

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#348515 - 12/19/10 01:18 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: westchesterguy]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
I learned something about how one becomes an activist. An activist is someone who simply says "Enough".

I share and add to your belief - that Ignorance and misinformation are the roots of all prejudice.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348517 - 12/19/10 01:31 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
If you don't feel safe because of something you see on MS, please share that feeling with a moderator.


Someone used this option just this morning regarding a posting that was less than kind toward the LGBT community in general, and the topic was removed. The best way to accomplish it is to use the "notify" button on the specific post you find problematic. Thanks for being willing to raise this issue.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#348518 - 12/19/10 01:46 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Geeders Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 1901
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Gentlemen:

I would like to compliment you all on the way this thread has evolved. There was great potential here for going wildly off, with any number of people feeling attacked for who they are. Instead, you calmly looked at all the possible permutations of why you were feeling one way or another, and you included the possibility of being triggered. This is not easy to do when you are feeling that your very essence, your soul is being challenged, invalidated, or vilified. Yet you did include the possibility of being triggered, and then looked at ways about how best to deal with it. Well done!

At the same time, I will say that MS tries to go to great lengths to ensure that all members feel safe, validated, and above all valued. We value and embrace diversity and equality. If you feel at any time that you are being attacked, judged, or otherwise put down as a result of your sexuality, please get in touch with a Mod. We will examine the situation in each and every case, and where indicated take steps to ensure the site remains a discrimination and hate free site.

Jim

_________________________
My name is Jim
WoR Mysthaven 2008, Level 2 WoR Alta 2009, Kirkridge 2010, 2011, Oprah 200 men

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#348541 - 12/19/10 09:28 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Geeders]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
I understand what the MS mission statement says, so I just want to clarify that in no way was I saying that MS as an organisation sanctions homophobia. Nor was I implying that any one individual was being overtly homophobic or that I have felt personally attacked.

Regardless of whether I feel triggered, what I have learnt from making my original post, is that I am not alone in feeling this tension.

I guess one just has to accept that this tension goes with the territory and nature of the healing journey for survivors and as individuals we need to remain focused on our own paths.


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#348560 - 12/20/10 02:13 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I am not sure if we have to accept it? We have a voice and I think it is powerful and wonderful that you are using it!

Sure in any situation on here getting triggered can be part of it, but you still can get triggered over something very valid and real. It is what you do with the trigger that is the key...

Which Blaidd, you voiced it with care and bravery! I am proud of you. You certaintly are not alone...

I think many of us gay brothers have been through a lot when it comes to being discriminated against or put down for being gay. So it leaves you very cautious. Personally I have felt hesitations posting certain things on here, even in the gay section.

True I get triggered, but I still think sometimes there is an underlining theme of slight homophobia... and I think it is okay to voice it when you see it!

Thanks WalkingSouth and Geeders for your comments as well...

I recently posted to the GBT section here something about spirituality and being gay. There is no way I would have felt safe posting that in the spirituality forum!

The GBT section gives me a level of safety I need sometimes. Thanks.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348593 - 12/20/10 11:13 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: diamondheart
...The GBT section gives me a level of safety...


this is more a general question diamondheart, not directly pointed at you. i understand physical "safety." and in my case as already stated, i cannot be gay and also keep my current job. so physical safety to me is silence, followed by some level of job security.

so, what is unsafe about posting comments, here of all places firstly, and coupled with the fact that no one knows who you are? what safety are we after here? emotional safety? protecting some gay brand image kind of safety? just overall avoidance of controversy?

if we can't just be upfront on all things, without holding back, can we still experience the full recovery process?

_________________________
Jeff

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#348599 - 12/20/10 02:00 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: westchesterguy]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
There is also emotional safety...

I get that we still live in a society where some feel the need to hide who they are because of fears of losing your job. I mean come on look at DADT, how many service members lost their jobs trying to protect their country before it was overturned? 14000

It was my choice to come out in 1995 but it certainly was not easy and I had to deal with a whole different set of issues from it but just like like keeping the abuse a secret being in the closet was not healthy for me.

Not only did I have to deal with my family being cruel, but also the outside world... It is one thing that I have realized lately, how much I had internalized other peoples hate. It all left me feeling worthless. It wasn't just the gay issue, I should point out...

I am not questioning your reasons for staying in the closet, it is your journey, not mine... Personally I am proud to be gay, I wish it were a little bit easier but still I like who I am...

I wish others like you wouldn't have to question my recovery but for what ever reason it happens. I realize it is nothing personal but still it bothers me.

For the most part I am upfront of things on here, sure there are things I leave for therapy but that to me is boundaries. With being upfront it comes with a whole different set of fears and insecurities as well, so does fearing if someone at work finds out that your gay!

I don't want to push you but one could say you aren't being completely upfront either in life? I mean you are still in the closet. Imagine if someone questioned that? How would that make you feel? You have a level of emotional safety being physically in the closet! Personally I can understand why some people stay in the closet, life is tough. I don't hold it against anyone! I wish we lived in society that everyone could be who they are without getting attacked or discriminated against...

Back to the feeling unsafe with posting comments... Even being out of the closet, there are times you can feel unsafe... Recovery is tough enough, let alone having fears that someone will discriminate against you or say something mean... I am not saying that everyone is like that, but there are others who do feel those things. It is like two gay guys going to a straight bar. Personally I would not feel comfortable, I would fear I would get yelled at or worse beat up... So I stay out of those establishments. Even though the internet isnt a physical setting, it doesn't mean it doesn't come with the same set of fears! If you are use to others telling you how they feel, you stay away from confrontation.

Plus as a survivor I think it is comman to lose your voice, especially as a gay survivor. So some of my gay brothers probably feel like they don't have a voice.

I force myself to post in the regular male survivor section on here, but I am hesitant. Not only does posting my ut most feelings on the here leave me vulnerable but I worry someone might say something negative. But I am at the point where I am not going to hide my light because of other peoples insecurities.

To me there is comfort and safty in numbers. So that is why I stick to the LGBT community, they know my struggle and we can protect each other. Same goes for the GBT forum on here, it brings a level of safty that I sometimes need for my recovery...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348604 - 12/20/10 02:32 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
not needed




Edited by Avery46 (12/21/10 09:04 PM)
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#348652 - 12/20/10 09:14 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Avery46]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
Can you help me understand what you're describing? Is it that you actually fear all straight people?

This reminds me of the question about how many times you have to actually hit a dog before every move anyone makes towards the dog will make it cower in fear.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348655 - 12/20/10 09:49 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
EFM,

My heterophobia was due to being fearful of all women and all str8 men.

You can ask the straight guys here. Several months ago, I was terrified of even being around the straight guys here.

Donnie

I would erase this but it will upset the flow of the spirit within.



Edited by Avery46 (12/21/10 09:04 PM)
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#348661 - 12/20/10 10:30 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Avery46]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
I am a recovering heterophobe, and also a recovering sex addict who was sexual with over a hundred men in my 20s and 30s.

The hetereophobia was something I was taught: messages that women hated sex, they found it disgusting, they found men to be sexually disgusting and pig-like, and men's sexuality towards women was something to be defended against.

I also learned men could have secret sexual lives and use other men to get off and not have to be in a relationship with them as sex partners.

I don't like labels: am I bi? gay? straight?

I see myself as honest, not escaping my life thru harmful behavior, and able to be intimate on many levels with people in my life: including sexually intimate with the one I love deepest and want to spend the rest of my life with.

Having to assert my identity beyond "survivor" here at MS is anathema to me. It is divisive and outside of our common bond.

As men, sexual abuse messed us up in ways that harmed our very essence, our well-being, our sexuality.

Thinking that other survivors supercede these wounded places may be too much to expect. There are so many unhealthy ways we respond to these wounds (I drank and sought sexual release in shallow, abusive ways that resonated with my abuse) - that I don't think we can expect others to not reflect these realities.

"EVERY MAN IS MY BROTHER"

_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

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#348671 - 12/21/10 12:15 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Mountainous Buck]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I am not sure if heterophobia is the right word... For me I have always felt uncomfortable around straight men. In elementary, middle and high school most of my friends were female... As an adult most of my friends have been gay guys and females.

For me the fear is that they will say something about me being gay. I think it depends on the environment. For example, when I worked at a electronics store a few years back I was nervous about coming out of the closet because there were a lot of straight men that worked there. After I came out, the fears subsided and things were fine...

Part of it could be that sometimes I am attracted to a straight male and not sure how to handle those feelings because I know they will go no where...

I have known some really cool straight guys... One I am still friends to this day! smile

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348696 - 12/21/10 05:38 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: westchesterguy]
Gamgee Offline


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada
As a straight guy abused by both men and a woman I don't have any animosity toward gay men, but I wonder if some of the apparent and more obvious homophobia comes from the sexual identity confusion that comes from the abuse. Men who are straight may have associations of sexual arousal from the abuse and the resulting confusion and anxiety combined with resentment toward the abusers may make them lash out at men who are gay. This is despite the fact that most abusers of boys and girls are straight men. I've always felt that people who hate or fear those who are different do so because of their own lack of confidence in their own values and beliefs. Happy, healthy, confident people don't hurt other people.


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#348726 - 12/21/10 10:59 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Gamgee]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 728
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Gamgee
As a straight guy abused by both men and a woman I don't have any animosity toward gay men, but I wonder if some of the apparent and more obvious homophobia comes from the sexual identity confusion that comes from the abuse. Men who are straight may have associations of sexual arousal from the abuse and the resulting confusion and anxiety combined with resentment toward the abusers may make them lash out at men who are gay.

I agree, Gamgee. I think that society has ingrained homophobia in *all* our lives creating a stigma for those who are attracted to people of the same sex. Gay men can have a difficult battle when their own internalized homophobia is triggered by the realization that they are gay and I think the same is true of straight male survivors dealing with feelings of same-sex attraction.

I wonder how much easier resolving the issue of SSA would be for us all if there was no judgement, punishment, and stigma for being attracted to someone of the same sex. Imagine that world.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348732 - 12/21/10 11:25 AM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Gamgee]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Gamgee
....resentment toward the abusers may make them lash out at men who are gay.


This is the clearest statement I have heard. So, not only is there the standard of homophobia but an intense "lashing" out.

For me and others, there was so an intense "heterophobia".

There are a TON of issues for us all. While it is good to have clarity of the potential "issues", I dont want to get "caught" up in them.

The bottom line is "accept" and respect ALL. Trust ourselves first and then grow embracing others that embrace us.

Peace,
Donnie

I would erase this but it will upset the flow of the spirit within.



Edited by Avery46 (12/21/10 09:00 PM)
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#348763 - 12/21/10 05:44 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: diamondheart
..your reasons for staying in the closet, it is your journey, not mine...
I wish others like you wouldn't have to question my recovery but for what ever reason it happens. I realize it is nothing personal but still it bothers me....


i do feel need to respond:

1) i'm not a closet case. i'm gay.

where i fail myself here is with inaction... i have this silly belief that gays in this country/community/ or on this board, actually care. people giggle when i say that i'd be fired for being gay. it is hilarious when we think about it, right?

so, consider the laughter. and that i equate the so called "gay community at large" to be selfish bastards. i mean - let's be real, thousands upon thousands of gay hiring managers have given me leads to a new job... right? lol.

and that same gay community probably considers me to be selfish too for not raising a rainbow flag and suing my boss for symbolically ending discrimination against gays, and then turning around to march on washington demanding marriage, etc. etc.

well, life doesn't work that way - in my view. i gave at the office years ago, and gave too much. there is nothing left for me to give. this time, i need to be on the receiving end. and the line is simply dead.

i've got at best 10 years left of a career, 15 years left to live and as far as i'm concerned now, its all down hill baby from here - just hang on to avoid coming up roadkill before its time.

2) i didn't question your recovery practices. i simply stated that an airing of homophobia can lead to positive change.

_________________________
Jeff

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#348768 - 12/21/10 06:34 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: westchesterguy]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Overt homophobia is when your partner dies and his family breaks into his apartment the morning after and strips it bare of his and your belongings. Then to find you have no legal basis to fight this crime and get your belongings back because the "state" doesn't recognise your relationship. I've been there.

Overt homophobia is when you are being assaulted and being called a derogatory name. I've been there.

Overt homophobia is when you are discriminated against in subtle or overt ways within the healthcare system or the workplace, I've been there.

But that's not what my post was originally about.

efm said it wonderfully: "Gay men can have a difficult battle when their own internalized homophobia is triggered by the realization that they are gay and I think the same is true of straight male survivors dealing with feelings of same-sex attraction."

That's my point, there is constant stream of expression of implied and internalised homophobia in the male survivor community, not just this site, and I'm simply over it.

Even though I understand the why's and how's as to why it exists it still frustrates the heck out of me.


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#348770 - 12/21/10 07:15 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
I will step back.

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#348775 - 12/21/10 08:46 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: Avery46]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
I really regret raising this whole issue and wish I'd kept my mouth shut.

I feel for guys who struggle with the issue of SSA. It is not my intention to be attacking anyone who has to come to terms with it as part of their healing journey. I understand the distress this issue causes those who are dealing with it.

But as a gay man I simply have a hard time reconciling the two points of view. One point of view is being gay and seeing it as a beautiful expression of our humanity. The other is that straight or confused men having same sex attraction is scene as a pathology which is self-destructive and needs to be repressed.

I feel that this latter point of view gives people a license to express feelings that come across to me as homophobic and I feel uncomfortable with this.

I have to learn how not to take this personally.


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#348779 - 12/21/10 09:02 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
I am sorry Blaidd. I see more clearly now. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Sharing is truly beautiful just like the humanity shared in your life as a gay man.

I honor and respect you.

I only have me to blame for my own abuses and NOT listening to me and getting better help.

Donnie



Edited by Avery46 (12/21/10 09:36 PM)
_________________________
aka DJsport

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#348785 - 12/21/10 09:40 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: blaidd
...there is constant stream of expression of implied and internalised homophobia in the male survivor community, not just this site, and I'm simply over it.


well, i for one don't necessarily agree that it is severe as that. i think there are two paths, one i'd describe to fit the members of this board who had/have been sexualized by a man or men and they resent the actions forced upon them. the second path is, say, someone like my boss who simply believes gays are an abomination in god's eyes.

i believe that the first path can be enlightened... maybe by you, maybe by a face2face friend. that second group i think can only change if their son turns out to be gay.

nonetheless, maybe the best a gay guy can do is continue the course in isolation. hold his head high. smile. never let them see you sweat. take the knocks. work his butt off without complaining. and continue to seek a little solitude to refresh for the next battle. and, off this board, that describes my m.o.

_________________________
Jeff

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#348800 - 12/21/10 10:46 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: westchesterguy]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
Originally Posted By: diamondheart
...The GBT section gives me a level of safety...


this is more a general question diamondheart, not directly pointed at you. i understand physical "safety." and in my case as already stated, i cannot be gay and also keep my current job. so physical safety to me is silence, followed by some level of job security.

so, what is unsafe about posting comments, here of all places firstly, and coupled with the fact that no one knows who you are? what safety are we after here? emotional safety? protecting some gay brand image kind of safety? just overall avoidance of controversy?

if we can't just be upfront on all things, without holding back, can we still experience the full recovery process?



I guess in a way from the above response, I took it as you were questioning my recovery because you specifically were asking what made it unsafe about posting comments? Then you say "if we can't just be upfront on all things, without holding back, can we still experience the full recovery process?" Just because this is for malesurvivors, it doesn't mean that you should keep your boundaries wide open... But that is my opinion...

Just like if someone asked you why you feel unsafe about coming out at work... You have your reasons for doing them, it isn't about right or wrong, it just is...


Originally Posted By: westchesterguy
Originally Posted By: diamondheart
..your reasons for staying in the closet, it is your journey, not mine...
I wish others like you wouldn't have to question my recovery but for what ever reason it happens. I realize it is nothing personal but still it bothers me....


i do feel need to respond:

1) i'm not a closet case. i'm gay.

where i fail myself here is with inaction... i have this silly belief that gays in this country/community/ or on this board, actually care. people giggle when i say that i'd be fired for being gay. it is hilarious when we think about it, right?

so, consider the laughter. and that i equate the so called "gay community at large" to be selfish bastards. i mean - let's be real, thousands upon thousands of gay hiring managers have given me leads to a new job... right? lol.

and that same gay community probably considers me to be selfish too for not raising a rainbow flag and suing my boss for symbolically ending discrimination against gays, and then turning around to march on washington demanding marriage, etc. etc.

well, life doesn't work that way - in my view. i gave at the office years ago, and gave too much. there is nothing left for me to give. this time, i need to be on the receiving end. and the line is simply dead.

i've got at best 10 years left of a career, 15 years left to live and as far as i'm concerned now, its all down hill baby from here - just hang on to avoid coming up roadkill before its time.

2) i didn't question your recovery practices. i simply stated that an airing of homophobia can lead to positive change.


I would also like to point out, that I never said or applied that you were a closet case. I am not even sure what that is... I don't hold it against you for not telling anyone at work... You have to do what you have to do...

Any of us can get fired at our work places because we are gay... I would never laugh at you or anyone else at the fact that you could get fired... I think it is a horrible injustice... Plus if that wasn't enough we can lose our housing, risk getting gay bashed, not visit our partners in the hospital, estate rights, and the list goes on...

In the past, I have been able to do more when it comes to activism but right now I can only do what I can do... I gotta take care of me, before I can help anyone else... So for the time being I am having to sit on the sidelines but that doesn't mean I can't scream and shout!!!

You seem to have your mind made up, in regards to things like activism and the gay community... Sure parts of both have unflattering qualities but like everything in life there are great, wonderful parts... If it wasn't for people standing up, nothing would change... and you don't have to stand up in a public way, like in Washington DC... You can stand up here or wherever you are...

Plus I understand that not everyone is able to stand up and that is okay. Just like survivors, we are all at different paths in our journey... I don't just stand up for myself, but I stand up for everyone us...

Sure I know you don't me... and it is easy to think that everyone is against you... I have been there... but some people do care...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348805 - 12/21/10 11:13 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: blaidd
Overt homophobia is when your partner dies and his family breaks into his apartment the morning after and strips it bare of his and your belongings. Then to find you have no legal basis to fight this crime and get your belongings back because the "state" doesn't recognise your relationship. I've been there.

Overt homophobia is when you are being assaulted and being called a derogatory name. I've been there.

Overt homophobia is when you are discriminated against in subtle or overt ways within the healthcare system or the workplace, I've been there.

But that's not what my post was originally about.

efm said it wonderfully: "Gay men can have a difficult battle when their own internalized homophobia is triggered by the realization that they are gay and I think the same is true of straight male survivors dealing with feelings of same-sex attraction."

That's my point, there is constant stream of expression of implied and internalised homophobia in the male survivor community, not just this site, and I'm simply over it.

Even though I understand the why's and how's as to why it exists it still frustrates the heck out of me.


Blaidd, it breaks my heart that not only have you had to deal with CSA but all of the above! I am sorry that you had to go through that... You didn't deserve any of that! None of us does...

These are the reasons why I stand up! If we don't stand up, even if it is in little ways, then nothing will change!

Voicing your concerns over homophobia to me is huge! You are standing up for not only yourself but others!

I too am tired of having to always fight. I wish it were easier!

Originally Posted By: blaidd
I really regret raising this whole issue and wish I'd kept my mouth shut.

I feel for guys who struggle with the issue of SSA. It is not my intention to be attacking anyone who has to come to terms with it as part of their healing journey. I understand the distress this issue causes those who are dealing with it.

But as a gay man I simply have a hard time reconciling the two points of view. One point of view is being gay and seeing it as a beautiful expression of our humanity. The other is that straight or confused men having same sex attraction is scene as a pathology which is self-destructive and needs to be repressed.

I feel that this latter point of view gives people a license to express feelings that come across to me as homophobic and I feel uncomfortable with this.

I have to learn how not to take this personally.


I am very glad that you did bring up the subject, it is very important! I stand with you!

NO ONE can blame everything on triggers, homophobia still exists even if it is not obvious! This website is not exempt from it... We have a chance and opportunity to open others eyes... Sure not everyone will understand or listen but there are others who will...

Sure it is complicated and complex especially when it comes to survivors dealing with SSA and the CSA... Sure people project all the time... but it doesn't make it right or less harmful... I wonder how much easier it would be for them, if there wasn't this stigma with being with another man... Sure the csa can cloud things, but its this idea that being with a man is a bad thing... and it just plays into all the other messages we hear about it being wrong, a sin and bad...

I believe there is nothing wrong with voicing your feelings and concerns... I am glad you had the courage to stand up... Even I struggled to say something... I wanted to but was too afraid....

I also believe that other gay people have internalized homophobia, how could one not with the messages we recieve on a daily basis...

Even though we have made strides when it comes to equality, we have to acknowledge that being gay is still really tough! It isn't easy for anyone, whether you are in the closet or not!

I mean we live during a time where people think it's okay that we don't have equal rights. Plus some feel it is okay to treat us like second class citizens by calling us names, harming us physically and discriminating against us...

There is ALOT to overcome! But we are in this together... I really hope Blaidd that you continue to give yourself your voice, I want to hear it! I understand if you feel you have to take some space but know I really appreciate and believe in all you say!!!

And it goes for everyone else too... This is our place to talk about things, even things that are difficult and touchy... The key is how we treat each other... Sure we are going to disagree sometimes but that doesn't mean its bad... I try take care with everything I say or do but I am human and have emotions... I get triggered too.... We all do.

Not too long ago, I hide who I was because of others insecurities and fears... and the fact that standing up can sometimes put you in the line of fire! I now realize I am letting all the nay sayers win... Letting them have control... So I am going to push through my fears, stand up for what I believe in and allow myself the voice I was born with...

I have shared this quote before but I believe it is worth repeating:

Quote:
Our Deepest Fear
by Marianne Williamson

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”


_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348807 - 12/21/10 11:35 PM Re: Is it just me? [Re: diamondheart]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Thank you for your understanding and compassion. smile


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