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#348098 - 12/14/10 02:45 PM Why are Non-believers best informed on religion?
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
The Pew Research Center has some really interesting research on religious knowledge in the US from June 2010.




Why is it, do you think, that Agnostics and Atheists score highest on the number of questions correctly answered?

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348100 - 12/14/10 03:16 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
westchesterguy Offline
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Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
....Why is it, do you think, that Agnostics and Atheists score highest on the number of questions correctly answered?
-efm


hmmm.... knowledge is power?

_________________________
Jeff

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#348106 - 12/14/10 04:18 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: westchesterguy]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 282
Because we're different religiously in a way that many don't approve of, and often called on to defend our views. It gets really old after awhile though. I personally prefer to just let people do their own thing.


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#348160 - 12/15/10 12:42 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: InsideTheWall]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6507
Loc: Terminus
Who pissed in your Wheaties?

WTF does ANY of this have to do with healing from CSA?

Why do you come into this form just to piss on us? If I incorporate spirituality into my healing WTF does it matter to you? I don't think you are very comfortable with who you are...OR you believe a nexus between homosexuality and CSA.

_________________________
When the phone don't ring, I'll know its you.

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#348162 - 12/15/10 01:15 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6507
Loc: Terminus
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark


Why is it, do you think, that Agnostics and Atheists score highest on the number of questions correctly answered?

-efm


Why do you give a flying fk? A question you can't answer...I know...so sad...

_________________________
When the phone don't ring, I'll know its you.

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#348179 - 12/15/10 03:08 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Still]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I care because I'm trying to understand. As a man being actively oppressed by religions in our society, and a survivor of religious sexual abuse, I'm trying to understand why there is so much passion for judgement from those who are religious to make the lives of others so much more challenging.

I'm trying to figure out if, in the case of Christianity, it's an ignorance of the gospels, a conviction that one is saved and others are not, or some other factor that results in the lives of good people being made harder than they really need to be.

It was the comments and actions of several folks in other threads that started this line of thought for me. It struck me as odd that atheists and agnostics would be better able to answer questions on religion than many of those who are religious, and that those who are religious seem less knowledgable and, in my experience, show less actual compassion to others than atheists who are generally painted as amoral and untrustworthy.

It's a conundrum that I'm grappling with as I go through the process of defecting from my church to protect myself from it's cruelty, hypocrisy and injustice.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348185 - 12/15/10 07:11 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Still Offline
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Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6507
Loc: Terminus
See, I'm not surrounded by those factors and dont see them. Gay marriage is accepted by states all around me and the churches I attend teach from the bible and judje not. They are affirming and accepting of whomever walks in the door. I can't get them to look at or discuss CSA but they are great with everone else.

I'm sorry you got abused through the church. I understand the grappling then. For me it was older boys, so I grapple with human nature.

_________________________
When the phone don't ring, I'll know its you.

The Aftermath Video

My Absolute Hero!

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#348190 - 12/15/10 08:35 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Still]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 282
Deleted. Realized post wasn't directed at me.



Edited by InsideTheWall (12/16/10 01:10 PM)

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#348371 - 12/17/10 12:07 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Still]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Robbie,

Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
See, I'm not surrounded by those factors and dont see them. Gay marriage is accepted by states all around me and the churches I attend teach from the bible and judje not. They are affirming and accepting of whomever walks in the door.

That sounds great, and highly atypical in this country. I live in one of the most supposedly liberal places in the nation and don't feel that level of support. Can you tell me what state you are in please? I want to check and see if your state and those that surround you have workplace protections, transgender protections, and the many other things apart from marriage equality that help bring the pendulum closer to equality.

Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
I can't get them to look at or discuss CSA but they are great with everone else.

What are you asking them to do, and how are you asking them to do it? If there is a post that lays this out, please point me to it. Are you the only voice asking for this conversation? Is the context of this CSA/ASA within your church or broader society? Are they ignoring you outright? Giving you reasons why they won't address the issue?

Once I know more, I'd be happy to work with you on a letter to send to them, and the higher church structure, making a clear, formal, and public request for the issue to be addressed.

Originally Posted By: Robbie Brown
I'm sorry you got abused through the church. I understand the grappling then. For me it was older boys, so I grapple with human nature.

Hearing religious people hold forth on how their gods and their churches can provide men healing for and from CSA and ASA while these same churches simultaneously downplay the abuse and enable and protect these pedophiles and rapists from discovery and facing justice is difficult to understand. It's a greater challenge to understand where religious people find the license and the hubris to assume the prerogatives of a god to sit in judgement on others, but not the corresponding qualities of infinite compassion and forgiveness for their fellow man.

There are many people who have heard a true message of compassion and love through religion and who try to live true to that, but there are also many who heard a message of us and them, of good and bad, of black and white, and who wield their imperfect understanding of a god's will as a weapon against others.

I welcome the former as my kin, but my conscience will no longer brook my silence on the unloving and indiscriminate actions of the latter.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348389 - 12/17/10 04:34 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
CheerfulJohn Offline
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Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 142
Loc: England (at the moment)
The faith people put in atheistic evolutionary belief which frees them from any 'oughts' or 'shoulds' regarding sexuality and gender is given dominance in many areas of life. It claims it's authority from it supposed 'knowledge', 'fact', 'reason' , rather than 'religion' which is now defined as un-reasonable and based on no evidence.

I am convinced sex was designed and we are to follow the Maker's instructions for it's use, then we have an idea about function and disfunction. If, as we are being bullied to believe through some psduo-scientific dogma, sex is 'free' from any creator, designer, maker's instructions, anything goes. Humanistic theories, shifting dunes, try vainly to draw lines about healthy and not healthy.

Blind guides mishandling The Maker's instructions VS Blind guides rejecting and reacting to the idea of a maker with instructions. What a choice!


Bullies come in 'religious' and 'non-religious' forms. It was a sunday school teacher, a daughter of a respected founder of a church who changed my life at 4/5, but plenty of non-believers had their turn.

Let's give each other room........as a 'believer' i have been trained well to never push my views on anyone, especially here...

"my conscience will no longer brook my silence on the unloving and indiscriminate actions of those" who hold to the popular mega myth of evolution.

As i have said in another post, i seem to be needing these 'enemies' of 'faith' to help me free from the abuse and lack of wisdom within the various religious circles i mix in (christian, Jewish, etc). It seems i have much to learn from un-believers. This place as uncomfortable as it can be, as a reflection of society regarding belief, is a haven for me.

If we give each other respect (ie no attacks) there will continue to be room for us all from our various perspectives. There will always be a tension but that is ok?

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#348393 - 12/17/10 05:41 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Evolution is now accepted by many churches as part of their gods design in creation, so I think framing it as "atheistic evolutionary belief" doesn't reflect how widely evolutionary theory is accepted.

Originally Posted By: CheerfulJohn
"my conscience will no longer brook my silence on the unloving and indiscriminate actions of those" who hold to the popular mega myth of evolution.

I don't understand how evolution is relevant to my refusing to let people use their religion to judge and thereby injure others. Are you trying to say that evolution judges and injures people in some way? Please clarify.

It not at all invested in whether you or anyone believes in evolution. It's only the best science we have until something better comes along, and in the meantime the Catholic Church thinks it aligns with their god's plan, so who am I to argue with the Magisterium?

I'm non-partisan on the issue of faith and belief and I'm for non-judgemental and loving behavior from atheist and religious alike.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348406 - 12/17/10 07:30 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 142
Loc: England (at the moment)
Clarity? Yes I am saying the crowd that holds to evolutionary belief judges and injures those who do not. I see that daily.

Just because it is a more popular way of seeing, doesn't mean it is anything more than a swing from church misrepresentation and oppression.

Those who think they are neutral do the most harm. Agreeing to differ is much more healthy.

Don't think we will resolve this issue here but I wanted to name a bully.

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#348414 - 12/18/10 12:00 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: CheerfulJohn]
earlybird Offline
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Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
CheerfulJohn

Well you say:
“If we give each other respect (ie no attacks) there will continue to be room for us all from our various perspectives. There will always be a tension but that is ok?”

But then you also state:

“The faith people put in atheistic evolutionary belief which frees them from any 'oughts' or 'shoulds' regarding sexuality”

Wow – that’s ignorance speaking. I’m an Atheist and I have plenty of “oughts and shoulds” pertaining to my sexuality that I live by.

Then effortlessly you voided your first statement that we should respect each other and give room for various perspectives by declaring as if an expert in absolute terms:

“Clarity? Yes I am saying the crowd that holds to evolutionary belief judges and injures those who do not. I see that daily.”

I wanted to stay neutral in this thread in order to give room for others and their beliefs but then you shot that idea to hell by declaring to all on MS that I’m the worst of the worst for doing this” when you so thoughtlessly blurted out”

“Those who think they are neutral do the most harm”

Then after lumping all of us into the garbage – what you see as the trash of disbelief - you say we must speak up or we are the worst of the worst but if we do then we are bullies. Dang, I can’t win. And then you close the conversation with

“Don't think we will resolve this issue here but I wanted to name a bully.”

So the question is who's the bully?

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#348421 - 12/18/10 02:17 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: earlybird]
1islandboy Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 862
Loc: washington
Oh, sorry guys...

I thought this was the spirituality forum...

Guess I am just a neutral negative nelly...


Spiritual Flute: The Beauty of Nature

island

_________________________
Rise above the storm and you will find the sunshine ~ M.F. Fernandez

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#348434 - 12/18/10 07:31 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: earlybird]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 142
Loc: England (at the moment)
If I attack it is in defense.

I believe none of us can be neutral in this war of ideas.

The bully? The 'new' crowd who threw out 'absolutes' absolutely. Individuals?I am responding to the freedom EFM feels in his attacks on those who hold to the biblical narrative:

"Your heart tells you what is right and just in this. Don't look to a book that sanctions slavery, rape, and incest for an ethical compass. If the bible is truly inerrant and literal then it has none."
"Mourn for your mother's choices and the effect it has had on your life and relationship, but don't believe what a holy book tells you is owed to her. Especially if that holy book puts forward rape and incest as godly behavior. "

Funny thing is EFM probably thinks he is neutral saying these things.

Being heard would be good but I just need to respond. When i was 4 I tried to shout wolf, all I got in response was "have you heard the story of the boy who cried wolf?"

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#348436 - 12/18/10 08:43 AM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: CheerfulJohn]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
We seem to have wandered far afield of our starting point.

The quotes you pulled are mine from other threads, usually from people in pain about what they are told they ought to do and be by religion, and they are my opinion, but they are no more right or wrong than anyone else's opinion.

As a survivor of religious sexual abuse I find the treatment of rape and incest in holy books like the bible, and the idea that everything in the bible is true and correct and a blueprint for how *everyone* should live, really hurtful and difficult to square with any acceptable view of morality.

As a gay man who reads the news every day and sees churches and religious people attacking my civil rights while also enabling and hiding pedophiles, the hypocrisy and the betrayal of true Christian ideals is quite simply brutalizing. It's as though the rape I endured at the hands of my religion is still happening and no one will do anything to make it stop.

I don't think I'm neutral, but I do have great respect for the idea of gods and the divine. The pure message of many belief systems are uplifting and beautiful, but the work of men to defend and put forward those beliefs into the world seems to me to fall far short of the true spirit of the message.

It's that gap that causes me so much pain.

I'm not asking people not to believe in their god, in fact, my great hope is ironically quite the opposite. I'm asking people who are Christian to be even more authentically Christ-like in their words and actions.

-efm



Edited by Ever-fixed Mark (12/18/10 09:00 AM)
Edit Reason: Late-breaking realization
_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348469 - 12/18/10 06:16 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Why does it have to be a war? Why can some things just be... Someone can believe one thing and not have it affect another... Whether you agree or disagree these are our thoughts, beliefs and feelings...

Just because someone says something doesn't make it true for you... Don't take it personal, like it is an attack on you...

I personally went through a lot of spiritual abuse growing up in the hands of christians. Do I believe all christians are bad? no... but that type of religion is not for me... I also have my own sets of beliefs when it comes to spirituality, religion and the bible. Some of them are in part to do with my experience and some are built into who I am... The bible isn't for me. I can't just look past certain parts. To me, it was written by man and translated through time...

When you start to question things people start to panic, like we are questioning their faith. When it has nothing to do with them. It is okay to question things and have an opinion... It is when you project and try to force your views onto someone else that I get uneasy with...

In the end, we all have to do what we must to get through life and heal. We each have had our own set of experiences and we each walk our own paths...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#348474 - 12/18/10 06:46 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: diamondheart]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
I agree with everything you said, Derek, as it mirrors my experience and feelings.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#348602 - 12/20/10 02:22 PM Re: Why are Non-believers best informed on religion? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Castle Offline


Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 731
Loc: NJ
Im not gonna get into all the other stuff...but answer your original question EFM....

Seems from the article and what i remember of it...challenging religion is what makes some non-believers more knowledgeable.

We are looking at "the" religion, regardless of which one, and sayign this doesnt make sence because of X y and Z...to say that we sorta need to know X Y and Z.

Some people in religon just dont question anything but just go with whats taught as the word....so they just follow without knowing why...just cause somebody said so

IMHO

_________________________

My posts can self destruct at any time..read them while you can.

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