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#34769 - 04/03/05 04:35 AM Curious*triggers*
lostone Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/09/05
Posts: 14
How does being SA by one person and multiple predaotrs differ? I was thinking about this earlier and I'm not sure where to put this so I put it here. How do they know they can do that to you? How do they know who to hurt and who not to? I'm so confused about this and its just messing with my mind right now. Did I wear a giant sign, did we wear a giant sigh that told them to hurt us?

sorry for the triggers


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#34770 - 04/03/05 04:45 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Mark R. Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 28
Loc: Santa Cruz, CA
Good Question;

I don't know, but I think it is due to a number of factors. We have weakened parameters for our personal boundaries. What in fact are appropriate boundaries? As an SA child, the boundaries become blurred between adult and child, between appropriate and inappropriate, and we are ourselves more prone to being abused. I don't think there is any difference between SA and children of alcoholics. Our view or reality is distorted. Children of alcoholics don't know any different than do children who have been SA. For us, that is how we interact with others.

Any other ideas?

_________________________
In others we find strength to face our monster, in helping others we can become the giant that defeats the monsters.

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#34771 - 04/03/05 01:54 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Mark seems to be on the right path, the distortion of boundaries, distortion of normative behaviour, that is normally learned in childhood.

I think also, that a child may exhibit signs of acting out, even without knowing he is doing it, looking for attention, and finding the wrong type of attention.

Predators, can easily pick you out on their "radar", and they will go to great lengths to get what they want, you are less powerful than them, and you are weakened by things of the past.

The more confidence you have, the less they will think of doing these things, but that is only an opinion.

There must be many factors to it,

a good thread,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#34773 - 04/03/05 08:23 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
RICK57 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/31/03
Posts: 1611
Loc: ENGLAND
Lostone - when I was a child, I believed that adults only ever told the truth. We were always told not to lie about anything and not to do anything that we would need to lie about.

When an adult groomed me, I believed it when I was told that everyone did those things, that no one ever talked about it.

I suppose I was 'lucky' in that I only had one abuser - that may have been different if I had not ended it becuase it had dawned on me that he was lying.

By then I had done something that I needed to lie about - the sad thing is that I only lied to myself. I never told anyone else for decades.

I don't think that we have signs on our heads - my abuser was an opportunist at a time in my life when I was looking for a friend. He was an adult of 32 - I was 12.

What amazes me is that I now think he had a sign over his head for years saying 'kiddy fiddler' - I'm just upset now because I don't know how many other kids 'had signs over their heads' after me.

At least I'm putting a stop to him now!

Best wishes & don't beat yourself up...Rik

_________________________
*Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up.
*I was seeking a way of expressing my anger - I found hope!
*There are many battles before the war is won! It can be won!

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#34774 - 04/04/05 04:21 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
FLRich Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 1404
Lostone,

I wonder about this exact thing at least once a week. I was sexually abused from 8-12 yrs old. I thought it was over and then I was abused again at 16 yrs old. I thought I had my life on the right track, but evidently I had this "Abuse Me" sign pasted to my back. The freaks just know. Like wolves after prey.


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#34775 - 04/04/05 02:36 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Moving on Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Maryland
When I think of my abuser, a captain, the flight surgeon on the Nimitz aircraft carrier, I think of a man who was a simple, single minded predator who sensed need in younger people, need and loneliness. Further, I think he sensed an endless valley of devotion for anyone who'd show me some kindness, even to the point of allowing him to assault me. It's pathetic, really, how easily it happens, but it is also a lesson in parenthood. We must not alienate our kids, must know the signs and recognize the people, because I too believe that sexual predators are somehow easy to spot, so much so that I know some of the signs and have a radar, too. It's strange, though, right now I can't even watch The Jungle Book movie with my son for being sickened by the God damn bear. It's funny what all this does to you, but I don't think you wear any sort of talisman other then a great trust and an absolute need to be parented...


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#34776 - 04/04/05 02:49 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
phoster Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 758
Loc: ohio
well, i just had the one, so i can't really say much. i do feel abusers have a sixth sense for it. i think they can spot the confused, isolated acting kid that they prey on. they kind of get a profile of the type who will keep quiet, and they seek them out.

_________________________
compassion is a light even to the darkest soul

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#34777 - 04/04/05 03:36 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
self_righting Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 69
Loc: Tampa, FL
lostone,

Thanks for starting this thread. It is a good one. First off, I think glaukos got it right by saying that we need to reframe the question. It is not about what was wrong with us. It is not wrong to be shy, lonely or to want attention. However, perps exploit those natural needs for their own selfish desires. I think reality2k4 also made a good point about our distorted boundaries and lessened confidence. When we are starved for poitive attention it is easy for the predator to manipulate us and use us. The guys made some other good points by noting that perps can sense us or spot us because we were vulnerable in some way, whether it be shyness, respect for authority, lack of confidence or some other reason. They use these traits against us. They can appeal to the logic of an obedient child by saying they are an adult and the child should obey. A shy child can be manipulated through a little positive attention and praise. Afterall, what is one little secret when an adult is treating you with respect and kindness?


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#34778 - 04/04/05 04:02 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
ForeverFighting Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1058
Loc: New Mexico, USA
I think it's being in the wrong place at the wrong time. From what I understand, perps will SA both boys and girls, and although we feel like we're the only victim of this particular creep, they usually SA many, many kids. I know. It's sick. I like to think my perp only hurt me, but he probably did the same to who knows how many other kids.

Was I especially vulnerable? I don't know. He was home alone with a kid, and that kid happened to be me. I'm with the younger crowd on this question. It's about power and fear. No matter how "confident" I could have been in an alternate reality, this guy was huge, and I was just a little kid. What am I going to do? Scare him off? And yeah, maybe we did need friends, but so do "confident" kids. I like the word Rick used, "opportunist".
Quote:
It is not about what was wrong with us. It is not wrong to be shy, lonely or to want attention. However, perps exploit those natural needs for their own selfish desires.
Exactly. Why would we have needed to change anything about us? It's about perps. And maybe what prompted my perp wouldn't have prompted yours. They're sickos with a need for power and control. We can't put such a heavy responsibility on a boy to keep those away by becoming something he's not.

It wasn't your fault. Please believe that.

_________________________
ForeverFighting

"This search for the truth--it's not for the faint of heart."--Goren on 'Law & Order: CI'
"The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart."--Isaiah 65:17

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#34779 - 04/06/05 03:45 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Splitting Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 62
I am new here. I will not repeat my story. I posted Existing in The Abyss.

There are some of us that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Regretfully it is a small percentage. The majority of us were abused by people who knew us. That knew that our family life was usually dysfunctional. Knew how to both make us feel useless and make us trust them. Then they take advantage of us.

Depending on many factors, we survivors actually have internal programming dictated by the abuse. When ever a certain set of conditions exist our brain reverts back to the time of our original abuse and we behave as that child that only knows how to accept the abuse. The sickos know this. They know the questions to ask to determine our states of mind. They know the buttons to push. How, 90 percent of the were SA'ed themselves. Experience has been a great teacher for them.

Now if I can just start having some feeling other than self disgust I might start enjoying life.


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#34780 - 04/08/05 05:37 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Ike Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 21
Loc: Virginia
You asked the same question I asked my counselor.
Did I have some kind of sign on me? I lost count at the service station. I'm afraid that more was serviced there than cars. I was not safe at my grandparent's home either. The 12 year old babysitter and his 2 friends not only enjoyed sex, they enjoyed torture. I actually told my grandmother about the babysitter. I ended up being confused and he ended up being thanked and kissed profusely for saving my life. I never wasted time trusting a grownup again. My grandparents also sold liquor elegally and someone drunk coming to buy a pint decided he wanted a piece to and what was there to stop him. Eventually my parents came and got me, obviously my other grandfather wanted his turn and he told me "THE TRUTH" - I was his property to do with as he pleased. My purpose in life was to take care of his needs which were obvious. He then gave me a choice, I could fulfil my destiny or I could die. Of course, I am still here although you do not know how many times I wish that I had chosen death. It's funny after a decade of satisfying his needs, he told me he couldn't do it for me anymore. The preacher talks about Hell, what do they know HELLLLLLL??????


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#34781 - 04/08/05 09:19 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Honest, I do not know. We either were abused by one, or by multiple people. Having been abused by multiple people in different ways, I can not really try to think of how I would be different, or if I would be, if it have only been one person. The initial abuse did what it did. Whether you were abused one time, or a hundred times, the boundaries were broken, the trust was violated, the fear and unsettled emotions were created. So I think as a baseline, we are all quite similar. I think with me, the fact that it was abuse at home and away from home, and at from such an early age, I came to understand it as 'normal' almost, and just didn't even really think to do anything to stop it until I was away from the situation and it already had stopped. Maybe another person with different background and issues would have done different. I am not sure.

Leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#34782 - 04/09/05 10:02 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
lostone
I was abused by many different people over many years, although I ( for some reason I haven't really figured out yet ) only count my abuse at boarding school as being significant in causing me problems as an adult.

When I was about 4 yo an old man, a stranger, put my hand inside his trousers briefly, on his penis. I remember it clearly, but it's somehow never bothered me.
When I was about 8 an older boy, about 13, made me masturbate him and wear womens underwear while doing it, this happened maybe 6 or 7 times, and again it's never really figured in my therapy.

When I went to boarding school at 11 things changed, I became the victim of a gang of maybe 7 or 8 older boys led by two who were my main abusers. This went on for over 4 years almost daily.
Early on I was beaten and raped by all the gang.
Later a teacher also abused me.

So I have often asked your question. "why me?"

My therapist led me back to my earliest memories, not only the sexual and sexually abusive memories, but to my family and schooling. All the things that made 'David' the man he is today.

Looking at my early family upbrining, my early education and all the other influences in my life I began to see that none of them had prepared me for these exceptional life events. I didn't know how to deal with life in general. I was vulnerable.
Growing up in a family that didn't show love and affection, strict schools and a very lonely rural environment made me fall for the attentions of others, even if they weren't in my best interests.
Not only was I sexually abused, I was always in trouble for staeling, vandalism and fighting. As a teenager I was drinking huge amounts, using drugs and stealing cars.
But I always did these things under some influence of others. I'm not saying I wasn't to blame, but there was always somoene else involved. All my school reports have the line "David is easily led".

I believe that my early life and the things I learned, or possibly more important, the things I didn't learn, just made me vulnerable.
And perp's see that and go for it.
The first sex abuser, the old man, was a chancer. He didn't know me at all, he just took the risk. And at that age I probably wouldn't have shown my vulnerability. But a few years later I began to show it, that was the label I wore on my head.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#34783 - 04/09/05 10:49 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Brandon61 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 28
I understand the question behind this thread, but the reasoning has me concerned.

Perpetrators are predators and we need to keep that in mind at all times. It's not always the weak
who fall prey. In fact, with herding animals, it's the ones who get isolated or separated from the herd
who get picked off.

If we were abused as adults then I would have to say it might have been our own fault. As children
we were not responsible. We didn't pick our babysitter, our school, our mom's boyfriend, our parents
or siblings. They alone are responsible for their actions.

Wondering why we were picked is being a little self absorbed. It wasn't about us. We were just
available-in the wrong place at the wrong time for us & the right place and right time for them.

I was looking through some old posts today and came across one that touched on this.
[URL=
http://malesurvivor.org/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001198
]Alpha Males[/URL]


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#34784 - 04/10/05 08:42 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Thad Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1752
Loc: Oakland, CA
Quote:
We didn't pick our babysitter, our school, our mom's boyfriend, our parents
or siblings. They alone are responsible for their actions.
That is what our perps have in common. They choose to cross our boundary for their purposes.

No, we didn't ask for it. Who would choose to be violated, betrayed and invaded. They violated our bodies, betrayed our sense of trust & safety and invaded our sense of self.

I was molested by my mother from 18 months old to 4 or 5 years old. For me there is no answer to "Why Me?" It just was. But I still ask the question.

Each of us were innocents when our perp first crossed our boundary. Our innocence was the first thing they took from us.

Each of our perpetrators approached us
they began it,
they caused what happened and
they were responsible for what they did.

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin
"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

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#34786 - 04/11/05 12:47 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Brandon61 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 28
Keep coming back as long as you need to Kevin.

Quote:
I hope I get better & have an okay life & I know im bitter & I know Im still in shock & I know I cry too much or whatever else it is im doin wrong. Im not disrepecting or thinkin of anybody yeah? Im just blowin it all out I guess
You're not doing anything wrong. Blowing it all out is good. Some of us kept it for a long time before we could do that.
I remember the roller coaster ride when I was at the stage you are in. There is peace on the other side of this chaos. Keep after it.
Asking "why me" is part of the process. I think we've all questioned why, but the bottom line is we were not responsible for being abused. The blame belongs on the perpetrator.


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#34787 - 04/11/05 12:59 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
Thad Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1752
Loc: Oakland, CA
Kevin
there is absolutely nothing wrong with anything you said. In fact, because it was honest it helps each of us look at ourselves.

Asking "why me?" can cut several ways.

First, it is important to look at our neediness or whatever made us more vulnerable. That is useful in learning how to be safe now.

Second, we may fall back into questioning what could we have done differently to avoid what happened. This is "should of" speculation that fosters negative self judgment - the "I'm at fault" ideas - which is never useful or acurate and negatively supports an idea many children get that they caused what happened.

Third, it is important to look at the very first time we were abused/violated/betrayed. It set in motion our awful confusion and our need to find a way to survive. What happened after the first time is layered with our initial confusion about sex/self doubt/trust/and we often fail to take into consideration that we were still children but now we were confused children desperate to cope with a sexual abuse trauma.

There was no "right" way to respond. We survived it. That was the right thing that we did. And now we can begin to recover.

those are my thoughts about it

Kevin - anytime you come and share honestly, you are helping me recover. thank you

....T

_________________________
"..this place isn't a discussion forum..it's a portal..." Lupin
"The truth will set you free, but first it will probably piss you off." dwf's AA sponsor.

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#34788 - 04/11/05 12:32 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Hiya Kev, the whole thing about why me? why this? why that? what if? it is just total confusion, and part of the hurt.

It is good to vent this stuff and see what others have to say, it gets it out, instead of waiting till the cork blows off the bottle.

You were just another normal kid, kids get lonely and seek attention, they show love, but it is unconditional love, and this beast stole more than just your innocence, but your respect for men, as you can see them all as being the beast.

Boundaries are a big issue here, the normal boundaries we grow up with, like touching, and being touched, knowing the right way of responding to normal human emotions, were damaged, and sometimes we believe that this is the way we should have been treated, and maybe even look for this sort of treatment from others, "acting out".

Boundary issues sure are the biggest thing to have hit me through life, and you will get to know more, about this here.

Quote:
I just froze cos all of a sudden the world wasn?t there for me any more & I wanted it to come back the way it was but it didnt & I was more & more & more scared & mixed up.
You felt trapped confused and helpless, nobody to save you.

As a boy, you think that you should have had more power to stop it, but you didnt, he was stronger than you, and you were powerless in this situation.

Dont blame yourself, dont feel guilt. Crying is OK, it lets out a lot of emotions that are going around your head.

Kev, there is a lot to go through, and you are already making steps through it, and you are a cool kid, you address things the way they should be done.

You have touched a lot of people here, and made friends also.

We all care ;\)

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#34789 - 04/11/05 10:18 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
LostinPA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 120
Loc: Lancaster, PA
I am new here at MS.org and I am leafing through some of the posted messages trying to find me. Almost at every turn, some of your statements and comments have been mine internalized for many years silently. The first question from lostone I feel compelled to address. Most dismiss that there is no difference between one perp and many. Well, I think that is wrong.
From the age of 3 until I was 5 both my mom and dad sexually, physically, and verbally abused me. Then the courts stepped in and took me away from them and put me in a Children's Home. I now belonged to the state and could not leave until after I was 18.
Well, as a result of my earlier memories, as they never left me, I had very bad nightmares.
Waking up screaming and pounding on the walls. The smaller boys (under 15) were in one dorm and the older boys in another. Well, "They" thought I was too much too handle where I was and made the choice to move me to the older boys dorm much too soon. From the age of 9 to 17 I was raped by 28 different older boys. Mind you, some of the SA experiences with these older boys were multiple, but: 28 different times with someone else. It does make a difference. I was afraid so much of my life to leave my apartment for fear that I would run into one of them. If it is only one, you look for one. For me I was looking in 30 differnt directions (including my parents). I moved all the time, running away, supressing it all saying I don't feel safe here so I'll go there. From the east coast to the west coast hiding from what might happen to me again. I never learned to fight, still can't. I just run. As a consequence I am alone and isolated.
I came to this sight by the recommendation of Mike Lew whose book my therapist asked me to read. I never knew other men felt like me. I have been so lost and so lonely. I am only now, in the down hill turn of my life just beginning to deal with this. I was a workaholic and escaped my life in books.
I can't hold back the pain and anguish any longer. I have to tell someone. Someone who really "knows" what this feels like. Please no patronizing cliches. I know them all. I just want to have a voice finally. I have been invisible and without a voice far too long and am very very tired.
Ric

_________________________
LostinPA
Ric

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#34790 - 04/11/05 11:24 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Asking "why me" became important to me when I was having 1 to 1 therapy because I was abused in an envionment where abuse was common, although it was obviously a hidden thing, if that makes sense.

My main abusers were well known as 'bum bandits' to the pupils ( and the teachers probably ) so they were shunned by the majority of pupils. When we met up to have sex I would not walk through the school grounds with them, I would meet them at a pre-arranged place. I didn't want to be associated with them in public, and that's how it stayed.

But I do know that these two abusers did try to groom and abuse other boys without any success, they would talk about their success and failures quite openly with me there. And I know fellow pupils who whould say "A & B tried to have sex with me, but I told them no" - and they remained unmolested.

So this caused me great problems, I wanted to know "why me". And to find out I had to examine very closely what kind of boy I was as an 11yo, what made me different to the boys that said no and were left alone.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#34791 - 04/12/05 06:52 AM Re: Curious*triggers*
LostinPA Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 120
Loc: Lancaster, PA
I'm sorry, but what has this to do with what I posted? Sure, your story sounds harsh, but a boarding school and an orphanage are quite distinct comparisions. Maybe I am angry, maybe I am bitter about it all, but did you ever feel what I did? Every day of my life I wondered when? Everyday of my life I wondered who? Everyday of my life I wondered when? I don't get it? What was so wrong with me that people felt it was okay to do "that" to me? I wws just a scared and lonely boy and still am.

_________________________
LostinPA
Ric

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#34792 - 04/12/05 11:38 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Brandon61 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 28
Lloydy,
You said:
Quote:
So this caused me great problems, I wanted to know "why me". And to find out I had to examine very closely what kind of boy I was as an 11yo, what made me different to the boys that said no and were left alone.
Can you share with us what you found out?


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#34793 - 04/13/05 04:52 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Brandon61 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 28
I've been thinking about the "why me" question. I really had a problem with the "why me, what if I, what if he/she, maybe..." questions from those still extremely angry with a perp. I don't see much benefit to the victim to engage in those questions when it shifts the anger away from the perp. The why me questions direct the anger inward. Instead of directing the anger where it belongs, for the why me questions direct it at ourselves.
One thing Lloydy's post made me realize is that there is a time to ask why. I'm over the anger and want to understand more about my self. Maybe it's ok to ask why at this point.
Thanks for helping me to see that Dave.


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#34794 - 05/03/05 12:20 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Charlie Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 148



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#34795 - 05/03/05 05:50 PM Re: Curious*triggers*
Larrymat Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 27
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Wow, so much of this makes me shiver. I'm batling with trusting my memory right now. And I recognize that my mother did lots to me from when I was really little. When the male boarder moved next door, I was about 9 or 10, I'm now starting to recognize what happened and what he did to me. My first thought is -- did I give off an aura, was there a scent, was I seductive in some way? And maybe what Mom did made me like that. I was a loner, an only child, I remember feeling almost girly at that age; he obviously heard her say again and again, don't hurt him don't be so rough when he got to know us and would roughhouse. Maybe that opened the door for when I was alone with him. Between trying to trust my memory and this feeling, it's very difficult to reconcile all the emotions today. And I also realize now why I spent so much time at theaters and peep shows and made myself available. Was I that way at age 10 too? Just unknowingly. More questions for the therapist. LOL
Larry

_________________________
Larry

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