Newest Members
DT, kk90, Austintexan, Cancan, LS
12257 Registered Users
Today's Birthdays
ByondClosedDoors (41), Dave1425 (32), DeafDavid (23), LowSky (57)
Who's Online
1 registered (Obi), 21 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
12257 Members
73 Forums
63123 Topics
441413 Posts

Max Online: 418 @ 07/02/12 07:29 AM
Twitter
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#346411 - 11/28/10 08:48 AM Is there Salvation for those who are gay?
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
This may be triggering for some and I would like to point out that these are my feelings towards religion and how my families beliefs of them has affected me.

Yesterday was my aunt Thelma’s funeral. I can’t say I ever handle them very well. I tend to feel numb. I struggle with the idea that I will never be able to see their physical forms again on this earth. I can remember when my Aunt Fran passed away in 1999 thinking I will never get a phone call from her giving me a hard time…

I come from a very religious family. So it shouldn’t surprise me that the services would be as such but I guess I didn’t think of it…

I think the reason death freaks me out so much is that I don’t know what I believe in??? I want to believe that we all go to a better place but part of me wonders will I just lay deep within the earth?

Those the idea of going to heaven is set with conditions and hearing sermons like the one I did at my aunt Thelma’s funeral only reinforces those fears.

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. Their message was of a narrow passage way into heaven. Fire and brimstone for anyone who did not repent and accept Jesus Christ into their lives! My father only reinforced that… On numerous occasions he would tell me as a teenager, that if I didn’t accept Jesus into my life I would go to hell… Enough times that I would have nightmares of the end of the world. Jesus would call peoples names but mine was never called.

My father stole my spirituality from me. I thought I had gotten over these fears. It wasn’t long ago that hearing the words GOD and JESUS would give me panic attacks…

Hearing this sermon triggered me deeply, sending me into dissociation… and of course while I am making the seven hour drive home to Michigan.

In so many words the preacher pretty much told us that if we didn’t accept Jesus Christ and repent we wouldn’t get to see our loved ones again. What type of belief system would do that to the children of GOD?

Most of my life I have been told, on many occasions, that I was going to hell for being gay. I can’t change being gay. It isn’t a choice. So in my mind, I have an eternal death sentence. The world has cast me into the pits of hell. So I either stop being gay or accept that I will burn in flames forever. Talk about causing trauma to oneself!

In the past how I deal with it, is to hide from it and my family.

My sister started to ask questions to my mother while I was driving about this topic. The service obviously had spooked her. At some point I just flipped out. I remember saying when I die, I don’t want that crap at my funeral. I have to believe it is bogus because if not I will fall apart.

I think another reason I struggle with the whole idea is all the sins our family has endured from Darren, who molested many in our family. Yet very few have ever stood up to him or did anything to stop it. Yet these adults believe I am going to hell???? What about the pain that everyone who was molested has endured??? I think they should have been concentrating less on their religion and more on protecting their children!!!

I am very angry. I will admit it. Seeing my family only makes my blood boil, especially certain ones who I know associate with Darren. This monster has molested over 10 children (probably a lot more) and has never gotten any help, nor was ever arrested for what he did. I think he’s the devil. It isn’t some external force that has a fiery home! How many more children will have to endure the pain that we all have??? And still no one does anything. My one cousin who let him live with her (with her three kids) said that she believed that he’d never do anything like that to her kids. And what says he won’t????

There was talk that he was coming to the funeral, thankfully he didn’t but sure enough I know he will be at my grandmothers funeral. He has no shame and he doesn’t care. He is void a soul.

I still struggle with the fact that my grandmother still holds him in such high regards. He is one her favorites. I am not… She even treated me poorly for many years. So how do I come to terms with that? It is another thing that has made me believe I am worthless and unlovable!!!

I have always felt that they have condemned me for being gay, yet they tolerated child molesters! This destroys your self esteem and your soul! Sure very few ever told me what they felt to my face but I know what they believed in.

My sister said that my mom and her had come around when it comes to me being gay. True they have come around but as I explained to her, in 2008 she didn’t want me to bring my boyfriend Bobby at the time or told me I couldn’t dance with him and wanted me to act a certain way with him. Plus he was not allowed to stay at her house at the time.

All these things just add up to me believing that I am WORTHLESS…

They say words are just words, but they can dig deep.
Coming out was horrible for me and those moments still live with me today. Over and over being told I was going to hell. Told I wanted to lose weight and I would from AIDS. Told I was abnormal. Told that none of my friends would be there for me in the end and I would be alone. I have internalized all of it and it slowly it has ate at me.

So adults of the family, thank you for stealing my spirituality. Taking it and throwing it away. Making me feel worthless for being WHO I AM!

And now I am the “fucked up” one. The only one who has the nerve to stand up and speak his mind. Well I am tired of doing it alone and I can’t any longer.

And those who worship JESUS. Would he do and say 90% of the stuff that religious people do??? Probably not…. You are doing to others, what they did to him. You are persecuting others for who they are.

I have always wanted someone to stand up for me.

I use to be scared of others, still am to a point. For the longest time I was scared of my dad. It wasn’t until I stood up to him when I was in my early 20′s that I stopped being scared of him. Honestly I am scared of my cousin Chad and Darren but I can’t let them know that. I have to believe that I could defend myself if need be. Otherwise I will just panic.

My mom has said on numerous occasions that Darren would kill me, if we got into a fight. She doesn’t realize how that takes my power away but then again I am letting someone else take something from me. I need to stop that, but haven’t quite figured that out… I guess in a way it feels like she is saying I am WEAK!

I feel like GOD is just another person in my life that has put conditions on love and acceptance. Either I shape up or ship out! Conform to others beliefs or burn in hell.
I am dreading my grandmother’s funeral. Is it bad if I don’t go? I am just not sure I can handle it? I want to be there for my mom but I don’t want to have a breakdown. and not sure how I will respond to seeing both my cousins.

Lastly, back to salvation. I want it but not from those in my family, nor do I want it from the god they believe in. I want to be comforted to know that I will see my mom, sister, paige, peyton and grace again, when I die… For all I know, this is all the time I have left with them… And that scares me.
Those that believe in Hell thinks it is an external place but I believe it is right here on this planet. I guess that is what I need salvation from. I want to stop feeling worthless, unloved and dirty. Because as of right now the only people I believe love me are my mom, sister and my nieces and nephew. And I am not convinced that my mother doesn’t still believe that I am going to hell because I am gay.

My mother use to say something like I love you, I just don’t accept your lifestyle. I was born gay, it is not my lifestyle. My family has put into my head that being gay is wrong and I have internalized that means that I am worthless and unlovable. And I don’t deserve to find love.

How do you get over all that???

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346415 - 11/28/10 10:38 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
Mountainous Buck Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/15/09
Posts: 1626
Loc: Minnesota
Hi Derek! Sounds like you have gone through a lot with this family of origin event. (I often think of my family-of-origin as my F.O.E. For some reason, versus my family of choice I am building and investing in today.

There is salvation for you, absolutely:
-salvation from the abuse you experienced as a child: sexual,'spiritual,'emotional, and physical
-salvation from a life of suffering the effects of this abuse that have played out in your adult life
-salvation from a dysfunctional family that continues to deny, abuse, and sicken

I would really like you to watch the film "The Celebration" from 1985-I rented it last summer and it was a pivotal event for me coming to terms with my abuse and my family.
Today I choose to relate and commune with healthy people although I still hold hope for my family-death has a way of rearranging families-and we can be a force for good in this process IF we have changed our roles first.

But changing ourselves and putting the old beliefs back at the feet of those who own them is more important at least in my life. You feeling worthless unmoved and dirty really belongs to Darren-he owns that and IS those things himself-no matter what others try to say.
Keeping you in this place is what they will do to protect their own role in the family system.

There is nothing wrong with being gay-there is sin in denying the truth and in withholding God's love. We create our own hell, IMHO, and I continue to back away from the hell I came from, day by day.

I am proud to travel this road to salvation with you, Derek. Watch the movie and lets start to leave our baggage behind.



Edited by Mountainous Buck (11/28/10 10:47 AM)
_________________________
We have to take responsibility for what we're not responsible for.

“It doesn't matter where you've come from,
It matters where you go" Frank Turner

Top
#346422 - 11/28/10 12:11 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Mountainous Buck]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Thanks for sharing your experience, Derek. It's a big challenge to deal with a very religious family, and having been abused, and being gay as a package deal. But I firmly believe that it's not a challenge beyond us.

The insight that Mountainous Buck shared, that "Keeping you in this place is what they will do to protect their own role in the family system", is a truth I've observed in my own life. Everyone wants you to continue to play your customary role in the family dynamic. If you try to move out of it the rest of the family system moves to force you back into it. The only winning move in that game is not to play. Disconnect from the family dynamic and be who *you* want to be.

I used to have the same kinds of discussions with my mother. That I'd be going to hell, that I need to go back to church, that there is something wrong with me. She thought that she accepted me just fine. After I'd met my SO and we'd been together a while, I was talking with my Mum about a trip home so she could meet him.

She'd been saying some of her usual stuff to me and I started to openly backpedal on bringing him to meet her. She asked why I would do that because, "you know I'd always be polite". I was tired of fighting with her at this stage so I replied wearily that I didn't want polite, I wanted heartfelt. If she couldn't give that, then I'd protect my SO from having to experience her. She started to argue and I cut her off. I explained that if she couldn't open her heart to my SO, then to protect us both she'd end up being cut out of our lives more and more. She would miss out on our lives and knowing us at all. She was stunned.

A week or so later, she called me and told me that "If God made you that way, then it must be okay." She opened up her heart and now she *loves* my SO and we've been together more than a decade. This happened when she was 78 years old. I don't quite have her supporting marriage equality yet, but change is possible at the most unlikely times and with the most unlikely people.

My lesson was to hold the line, hold to my principles and to what I want my life to be. Dogged perseverance and persistence is a force that's hard to resist. smile

My family is about as Roman Catholic as it gets and my Mum was a Charismatic Catholic. Talking in tongues, touched by the spirit, the whole kit and kaboodle. As the eldest son I was supposed to be a priest like my first cousin, and I was named for an uncle who was also a priest.

I have two different relationships with the church I grew up in. One with rank and file Catholics, many of whom think the church is hopelessly backward on science, human sexuality, contraception, and the family, and the other with the Roman Catholic hierarchy.

The Roman Catholic laity tend to be at the leading edge of social justice movements, even those that the Magisterium itself opposes, like the movement for any civil rights for gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people. The Vatican and the Church Hierarchy are becoming more retrograde, conservative, and ethically inconsistent as time goes on. My uncle left the priesthood eventually, I trace it to the cruelty and stupidity of Humanae Vitae (forbidding contraception) and it's impact in Asia.

To deal with what the church was telling me about myself, I became an apostate. I didn't attend mass, I didn't receive the sacraments, and I stopped thinking of myself as a Catholic. If pressed "I was raised Catholic" was as far as I would go. I was forced to reject the Church because it's suddenly punishing and vengeful god didn't match up to the infinitely loving and forgiving god they had taught me to believe in. I came to realize that it was my judgement of my own heart that mattered, and not the dusty dogma of a religion that had lost it's way.

Yet even after 20 years of apostasy I found myself recently taking a stand to defect from a Catholic Church so corrupt and compromised by the ongoing sexual abuse scandal, and so diligently homophobic in its actions against gays and lesbians throughout the millennia that I could no longer bear being accounted among it's number.

Dealing with our religious upbringing takes a lifetime. I found that the most important thing for me was to decide, independently of any church, what a good life was and how it could be lived *for myself*. From there, it's was the battle with the internalized homophobia that the church and society embeds within us

My path led me away from organized religion, but others have found a religious home that accepts them as they are to be a deeply healing experience.

I attend weddings and funerals for my family because acknowledging them is respectful and the right thing to do. Perhaps the right thing to do for you is to attend but to have someone who supports you attend also so that you can have an aware and caring person there just for you.

I don't know that there is a life after this one, it doesn't seem likely to me, nor does anything in the dogmas of religions convince me it's so. If there is no afterlife then there's all the more reason for us to make the most of every moment we have with the people we care about.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#346442 - 11/28/10 05:41 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Derek, it makes me so angry to read what you wrote about the spiritual abuse you have endured, on top of the abuse from your cousin.

All this is tantamount to brainwashing and I've seen it so many times before and the damage it has done to my beautiful GLBT brothers and sisters.

In your heart you know that they are wrong, otherwise you wouldn't be even discussing it here. You'd be caught up in the lies and in doing so living the lie. The fact that you are not living this lie says to me that you have great strength and courage in facing this adversity.

I know that it is hard to switch off those negative messages, I really do. These messages come from a twisted and screwed up version of man's interpretation of the bible. Not everyone interprets the bible in the same fundamental way that people like the Baptists, Mormons or the Catholic Church do.

There are, and I know many, wonderful gay and lesbian Christians out there who have come to terms with this. I have friends who are part of Christian communities within mainstream Churches who are welcomed and accepted as equals. It is a lie to say that Gays are not welcomed in the Christian community. Sure there are places where there is a lot of hated and homophobia, but the point is there are other places in which gay people are loved and cherished without any conditions attached.

You are not alone in this. There is salvation for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. Connect with those who have a positive and affirming view of being gay and Christian. Let go of the crap you've been taught, because quite frankly they have got it wrong. The crap is not yours, it is theirs and let them burn in hell for having the audacity in the sight of God to have treated you with such contempt. You are so much better than them.

_________________________
Blaidd (pronounced as blaith/blithe) is a welsh word meaning wolf.

Top
#346445 - 11/28/10 06:03 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2433
Loc: TEXAS
laidd.Hi, my brothers,

Is there salvation for those who are gay?

In the Catholic religion, we are taught that we are made in the image and likeness of God.

So, if I am gay, then it's OK with him.

I will say that in another post that there are no religeons & churches that have any room for gays.
I will stand corrected, there are places of worship that do have room for us gays, GLBT web site has a listing of them.

I'll thank my GLBT, brother from "Down Under" blaidd, for setting me straight.

Derek, my gay fraternal brother, i like and love you for just being YOU.

Heal well, my brothers, heal well.

Pete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


Top
#346446 - 11/28/10 06:08 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
Obi Online   content
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 1279
Loc: kansas
stuart...

with all due respect, i'm a southern baptist and what bothers me is the way that true christians get raked over the coals for the misinterpretations and misguided "christians" that spew forth the poison that damages the credibility...

Christ would never turn anyone away. Christ hung out with the "dregs" of society. he didn't hang out with the spiritual leaders of his time.

now, i'm not gay but i have many friends/brothers who are gay and i would never turn them away, treat them awful. i would like to believe that i treat everyone, the best that i can because i'm not perfect, like a true christian would... to love thy neighbor. to love thy brother. to do unto others as i would have them do unto me.

i guess it bothers me that many people are lump us true christians into the same mold as these very outspoken, and very misguided, ones that are preaching hate instead of love...

todd

_________________________
live another day. climb a little higher.

my story

my vlog

Top
#346448 - 11/28/10 06:11 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Obi]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Todd, yup you are correct and it was not my intention to tar all people within those various branches of the Christian Church with the same brush.


Top
#346450 - 11/28/10 06:24 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Obi]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
This is from the Southern Baptist Convention website in regards to sexuality:

Quote:
We affirm God's plan for marriage and sexual intimacy – one man, and one woman, for life. Homosexuality is not a "valid alternative lifestyle." The Bible condemns it as sin. It is not, however, unforgivable sin. The same redemption available to all sinners is available to homosexuals. They, too, may become new creations in Christ.


It is not just the Southern Baptist faith that believes being gay is a sin.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346452 - 11/28/10 06:28 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Thanks everyone for your support and words...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346456 - 11/28/10 06:51 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
HIS word states - For GOD so loved the WORLD - that HE gave HIS only begotten SON.

We each have our own journey to walk with God or whomever we call to be our spiritual guide.

I believe hiding behind "others" truths will only get us more confused and distraught at the end of the day.

Please know God loves us ALL. Find your own PEACE within yourself - it is there.

Peace,
Donnie

_________________________
aka DJsport

Top
#346460 - 11/28/10 07:03 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Obi]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Obi
with all due respect, i'm a southern baptist and what bothers me is the way that true christians get raked over the coals for the misinterpretations and misguided "christians" that spew forth the poison that damages the credibility...
[...]
i guess it bothers me that many people are lump us true christians into the same mold as these very outspoken, and very misguided, ones that are preaching hate instead of love...

And with equal respect, until such time as the "true christians" you speak of make some credible attempt to clean house and/or drown out these "other christians" that are damaging their reputation, I have no sympathy for the consequences they suffer.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#346463 - 11/28/10 07:30 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Avery46]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Avery46
HIS word states - For GOD so loved the WORLD - that HE gave HIS only begotten SON.

We each have our own journey to walk with God or whomever we call to be our spiritual guide.

I believe hiding behind "others" truths will only get us more confused and distraught at the end of the day.

Please know God loves us ALL. Find your own PEACE within yourself - it is there.

Peace,
Donnie


I am confused, who are you saying is hiding behind "others" truths?

The sad thing I have no idea that GOD loves me? If we are all children of GOD, why would a parent not protect a child? or even put their own child in the mouths of the beast?

I think that is what I have a big issue with the whole "Being Saved" as an adult thing. People talk about needing to get saved and I wonder where were these adults when us as children were getting abused? Why didn't they save us then???

Organized religion may work for others, but it doesn't for me.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346515 - 11/29/10 09:38 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Derek,
I just want you to know you're not alone in the struggle with these thoughts. I grew up in the Baptist sect of religion and a very strict part of it at that. Much of it was used to justify what was done to me. So in many ways, I really don't have a use for people proclaiming God to me.

Than you add into it the many who see gays as making a sinful choice and I'm sorry but I can't deal with these people. Most of the people who say these things either have never read their bible and understand what it says or they just follow blindly what their church preaches.

For me, I've learned that life exists without all this religious stuff. I'm learning that there is so much more in life than what some religious institution tries to brainwash me with. As a result, life has drastically improved and I've been with the love of my life for over 11 years now. If I would have kept listening to the church, I most likely wouldn't still be alive today.

I think each of us has to find our own way through life and find what matters. It isn't necessarily what some group of people tell us we should believe or shame us into thinking that they have the answers. There is much evidence out there to suggest otherwise but most won't look at it. Find out what fits for you and realize that it should be an ever growing and changing process.

Don

_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#346528 - 11/29/10 11:46 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: MrDon]
philistine Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/27/09
Posts: 209
Loc: Oregon
Oh god, the god conversation.

I was raised in a Mennonite community.

I walked out of church when I was 12 or 13, during the most vitriolic sermon I had ever heard.

Over the years I have mostly lost what little faith I had.

The god of the various churches is the god of the human races infancy, he she or it acts like a child, viewing the world in black and white, and how do I get more converts. The human race is at a pre-teen age (collectively) we need a deity that is an adult.

In my opinion, stolen for Greg Bear, god is the father that loves us and wants us to grow. He is the mother that we call upon when we don't know how to continue, she is the child that is ever curious and joyous.

If you would like to read a bit, check out Matthew chapter 26. One of the statements in there goes something like go into your closet and pray, trust not men that say they speak the word of god.

Organized religion is in the end pretty self serving, and since its power is based upon life after death (or the denial thereof), evil (at least politicians cannot hang around, in this world, for eternity).

I would say dump the religion, for it has long since dumped you.

As a group, I like religious people, they have faith, which allows them to be better people, but I increasingly dislike professional priests. On a parish level priests can be an amazing transformer, on an international level, they cause more damage and chaos than pretty much anything else. My examples, the Pope (look at this jackass; contraception, even to save lives is a sin, lets try and start a holy war with the Hindus/Islam, let us roll back social justice by a hundred years. Jim Jones in Guyana. The various Ayatollahs and terrorism, etc, etc, etc.

I will continue to try to be a decent human being and if that isn't good enough for god, I will join Mark Twain in hell, with all of his friends and mine.

This is one of the longest posts I have ever made, I guess the T and I will be talking about religion soon.

_________________________
Mike

"No price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself" - Nietzsche

Top
#346574 - 11/29/10 05:36 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: philistine]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: philistine
I will continue to try to be a decent human being and if that isn't good enough for god, I will join Mark Twain in hell, with all of his friends and mine.

Thanks Mike this made me laugh. smile

For some reason that laughter reminded the little boy in me of a rather amusing thing that happened when I was 4 years old. It was xmas time and my Grandparents, who were devout Catholics, took me to a xmas mass. When people started singing a hymm, I stood on the pew and started singing Happy Birthday Jesus rather loudly. My grandfather was so infuriated and embarrassed, because he saw himself as a pillar of the community, that he demanded my grandmother take me home. We had to walk many kilometres home while he stayed at the service. I was a bad bad boy for doing that.

As an adult I see this as the little boy being cute and playful and I bet that the other parishioners saw it this way too. My relationship with religion went downhill from there.

I was abused in my grandparents house. To the outside world my grandparents played the role of Good Catholics, while on the inside it was dark and sinister. They knew what one of their sons was doing to me and they did nothing. My grandfather turned his back on him and tried to pretend it didn't happen. I suspect my grandfather was trying to hide his own shame of what he'd done to his own sons. While my grandmother praised my perp as a saint in order to hide her guilt and fuel my denial. She always used to tell me while I was growing up, that we were born into this world to suffer. What a twisted bitch.

I vowed I would never be like these people. While I can not blame Catholicism for my abuse I do have a real issue with the fact that I was surrounded by the hypocrisy of individuals who professed to be good Christians. It took me a long time to untangle this and realise that they weren't. Heaven help me if they had lived long enough to find out I was gay, haha.

So Derek I relate to what you said about not being protected. I chose to follow my own path. There is no rule that says you have to follow the same beliefs of your family of origin. You can find your own path, and in doing so find the healing and the love that you deserve to have.


Top
#346595 - 11/29/10 07:26 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: philistine]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Mike FTW!

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#346622 - 11/30/10 12:36 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
My heart goes out to you guys .

We have tremendous gifts and yet we choose to believe lies about ourselves.

Having the capacity to hold both masculine and feminine is a huge gift. How we express our sexuality is both unique and sacred.

Let's not take on the garbage that some would like us to. That belongs in the past, as the abuse we suffered.

Let's know that we are truly loved and that we belong here among all the world's people. And heaven, the gates of heaven are open to all who seek sincerely. We are Worthy, brothers. We are Worthy.


Top
#346630 - 11/30/10 01:16 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: risingagain]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I personally struggle seeing god as a HE... probably because of my abuser was a guy and my relationship with my dad...

GOD was always viewed as someone to fear. A punisher of sins.

I don't even like the word GOD or Jesus... Even though I know Jesus was a good man... It is how frightened my father made me... The bible and such is not for me...

There are parts of me that know the truth and there are still other parts of me (probably my inner child) that still believes what I have been told.

If I can get in the a decent frame of mine in regards to a higher power, I like to think of it like Mother Earth... I have always connected more with the female spirit and tend to be more comforted to think my higher power as a female. though i tend to believe our high power has no gender...

right now, I can't even think about all of that...

It is hard to not believe the lies, when they are all I have ever known. It is a form of brain washing...

I thought I was over it but I merely buried it deep.

Thank you everyone for all your kind words and your wisdom. It means a lot..

huggs.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346721 - 12/01/10 01:18 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Derek, I see a courageous man asking deep and important questions about his life and his relationship with Spirit.

I honor the way you choose to conceive of Spirit, Mother Earth. It is individual and beautiful as it is.

One of the things I like about Buddhism is that they don't really have a form for the Creator- they just call it 'emptiness'. And yet they acknowledge the great Love of it, and how everything arises from it and returns to it...

As someone who is questioning their beliefs, you are a leader and not a heretic. After all, you were created with an inquisitive mind.


smile


Top
#346724 - 12/01/10 03:14 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: risingagain]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
thank you very much for your kind words... i really appreciate them... I really needed to hear this. huggs

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346737 - 12/01/10 10:27 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Ever-fixed Mark
Originally Posted By: Obi
with all due respect, i'm a southern baptist and what bothers me is the way that true christians get raked over the coals for the misinterpretations and misguided "christians" that spew forth the poison that damages the credibility...
[...]
i guess it bothers me that many people are lump us true christians into the same mold as these very outspoken, and very misguided, ones that are preaching hate instead of love...

And with equal respect, until such time as the "true christians" you speak of make some credible attempt to clean house and/or drown out these "other christians" that are damaging their reputation, I have no sympathy for the consequences they suffer.

-efm


Bravo, efm! I could not have said it better myself. That encapsulates my feelings on that matter perfectly.

~Matty


Top
#346907 - 12/02/10 05:02 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Moortje]
chuckb Offline


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 32
The statements in this thread are so vast that a simple response won't suffice. If we're going to discuss all this from a "Christian" point of view then let this faith be properly represented. A family mentioned here sound exactly like the religious leaders at the time Jesus walked the face of the earth. Jesus condemned them for their "uprightness" which was nothing more than self-righteousness. First, your family betrayed you, not God. The bible speaks of this in multiple places, one of which is "Mat 10:21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death."

Regarding the religious leaders Jesus taught, "Mat 21:31-32 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him." The god your family taught you is not the God of the bible. The God of the bible offers forgiveness to all.

Look at the rapist, will he say, "I don't like this God, He condemns me because I enjoy sex and I enjoy forcing sex on others. It's just a means of spreading love. After all, sex is love." Or the adulterer, "I just love more than one woman. I'm just spreading love, it's unreasonable to expect me to be monogamous, I have too much love in me for that." You get the point. The bible teaches that God sees all this sin and instead of bringing judgment on us all, in His love for us He decides to send His Son to take the punishment that we deserve so that we can be forgiven of all our sins, no matter how silly or even righteous they seem to us. Biblically our self esteem should not be in our sexuality, our wealth, how many friends we have, what we own, how much we make, etc, but who we are to God. According to the Christian faith as taught in the bible we mean everything to God, which prompted Him to send His only Son to punished in our stead so that we might be free and have eternal life. To the genuine Christian, he/she understands the depth of God's love, and his/her self esteem rises accordingly. He/she is grateful for God's love so that the repentant rapist no longer rapes, but builds up. The adulterer no longer commits adultery, but loves his/her spouse and family, nourishes them in the love of God, and is faithful to his/her spouse and family. They are transformed daily into the image of their God.

But the true teachings of Christianity is not that God wants to send anybody to hell, but "1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." The legalism of too many traditional denominations are destructive, and too many of us have become its victims. This is not God's fault, this is man's fault. Don't blame God for what man has done.

This is a summery of sorts of the Christian faith. If this is what you want then abandon your own desires and ideas and embrace it. If this is not what you want, instead of railing at it and making yourselves miserable find a faith that meets your standards and embrace it. Or maybe your preference is no faith at all. But a family that condemns someone who is gay while protecting someone who sexually abuses children is not behaving as the God of Christianity would have them, for this God demands that parents love and protect their children, and condemns those who don't.

If the God of Christianity is real then He offers salvation to gays as well as to prostitutes, adulterers, fornicators, thieves, slanderers, drunkards, etc. We who have been so severely abused have a great deal of difficulty in seeing this love of the Christian God. Our pains and miseries have blinded us to this, and believe me, I'm at the top of this list.

_________________________
I want to know the truth and I want to know why.l

Top
#346911 - 12/02/10 05:28 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
I decline the notion of, as a homosexual, being lumped in with the likes of prostitutes, adulterers, fornicators, thieves, slanderers, and drunkards. However, that's a comparison I all-too-often seen made (with a straight face!) as some sort of testament to the all-inclusiveness of Christianity. Oh brother.

On the other hand, I was raised in an atheist household and find great comfort in my humanism. Christianity has always struck me as exclusionary, and frankly, unbelievable. Finding true love with another man has been one of the most pure, beautiful things in my life, hardly the thing I should ever feel the need to answer, or seek forgiveness, for.

However, to those in the gay forum here who ARE looking for positive affirmation and reconciliation with their Christian faith, I truly do hope you find it. Religion is for some, and not for others. When it comes to who you love, you deserve to be loved, cherished, respected, and accepted for who you are. And you have nothing to apologize or ask forgiveness for. You do not need 'salvation' from practicing true, safe, gentle love.

~Matty


Top
#346914 - 12/02/10 05:57 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: Derek Stephens

How do you get over all that???


derek in reading your essay "i" internalized it as "noise" so much noise -- that same noise that is all around us. however, if i think back on my own recovery process that noise subsided. eventually it was gone.

i don't know that anyone can say "follow this approach" and one gets over something and/or that noise vanishes... in some respects recovery can be an isolating experience.

i think it was in that isolation where i learned how to block out the noise and to learn who was worth keeping in my life - and who was not. when all was said an done for me, god was dropped and so was the church. gave my parents notice. but when they realized that i was serious they stopped with the noise. (my rules were: if you add conditions to your love for me, i will go away.)

_________________________
Jeff

Top
#346917 - 12/02/10 06:23 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Moortje]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Well said Matty.... You Rock !!!!

You said what I have wanted to say every time I see a thread like this on survivor sites. Well Done.


Top
#346940 - 12/02/10 09:44 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I don't know if everyone is discussing all of this from a Christian stand point? That is what has been taught/preached upon me for years... So I speak as to how it relates to me and how it has made me feel... I do not consider myself Christian or religious for that matter. I am just trying to overcome these beliefs that I have about myself due to various spiritual and sexual abuses...

For me, in order to heal, I have to question it all and by doing so I realize it does not make it so. One person's truth is not another persons and so on...

Regardless if people's teachings are off from what it says in the bible, that message is not for me.

I just don't get why others feel the need to correct others when it comes to spirituality or religion?

I think those who have been at the end of a bible when it is used as a weapon, certainly have the right to question that said faith...

This idea that homosexuality is a sin, is man made... To compare gay people to "prostitutes, adulterers, fornicators, thieves, slanderers, drunkards, etc" is to say being gay is deviant. I don't care how much someone tries to tell me what the bible says or what god says, I will not believe that being gay is wrong.

Christian's want me to believe in their God, as they see it or as it is said in the bible and many do not allow for anything that doesn't fit in that said box.

If you are comfortable with your own faith, you shouldn't feel the need to conform and save everyone else.

If God, is love... Love comes in every shape, form and size...

I guess I am unsure when people question god, religion and spirituality, why others feel the need to quote the bible? or try to get others to see god the way they do???

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#346969 - 12/03/10 10:32 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
MrDon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/08/01
Posts: 957
Loc: Deltona, FL
Sorry it is best if I just not visit this thread and delete what I just wrote. I've been way too triggered by God and religion this past week. I don't need this right now especially with the holiday time upon us. So what I wrote - is now gone.



Edited by MrDon (12/03/10 10:35 AM)
_________________________
In order to journey to new worlds, we must first be willing to lose site of the shore.

The Mind Body Thoughts Blog
http://mindbodythoughts.blogspot.com/

Check out my relaxing piano music from the heart!
http://www.donshetterly.com

Top
#346980 - 12/03/10 02:28 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: MrDon]
chuckb Offline


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 32
I see no one understood what I was trying to say. In a sense I'm saying don't let your self esteem be determined by how other misrepresent a particular faith, in this case Christianity. If you are an atheist and find comfort in your humanism then fine, go with it. I'm not disagreeing that people have used religion to hurt and destroy other people. I have many questions myself, Christianity is one thing I'm questioning and studying as I travel my road to healing (hopefully). As far as Christianity is concerned, whether its true or false, those who use it to destroy others are misrepresenting that particular faith. I'm just suggesting that you learn the difference if you're seeking comfort from this faith. It's not the faith but the people who misrepresent it that has hurt you. The faith itself teaches that there is hope, forgiveness and healing, and that is what we are all seeking isn't it?

If Christianity isn't your cup of tea then what I'm saying really has no meaning for you. I'm addressing this to those who want to find their answers in this particular faith. This particular faith says that homosexuality, prostitution, adultery, etc are sins. If you disagree with this then Christianity is not the faith for you, seek elsewhere. If it is the faith for you then instead of trying to change what it clearly states, conform yourself to what it teaches. You won't find peace by distorting it's teachings. Seek another faith or no faith at all if that is your desire. Don't torment yourself or let others torment you over this. I was merely trying to help you set your self esteem by a means other than your family who misrepresented the faith they say they belong to.

A final statement, if one is truly a Christian then he/she is compelled out of love to try and persuade others that there is hope, forgiveness, healing and eternal life in their God. If they don't then they are not being true to their faith. It means that they do love and care for you no matter how misguided you think they are. Try seeing that, that they do love you and care about you rather than trying to destroy you. Look at them from a different point of view, it might help you to see yourself in a different light, as someone who is lovable. This will help your self esteem. It doesn't matter whether the person is a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, etc. People who lovingly share their faith you care about you and want the best for you.

_________________________
I want to know the truth and I want to know why.l

Top
#346988 - 12/03/10 04:14 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: blaidd
Well said Matty.... You Rock !!!!

You said what I have wanted to say every time I see a thread like this on survivor sites. Well Done.


Thanks blaidd! I've always found such false equivalences insulting and felt the need to speak up.

Heal well blaidd,
~Matty


Top
#347075 - 12/04/10 11:14 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: chuckb
I see no one understood what I was trying to say. In a sense I'm saying don't let your self esteem be determined by how other misrepresent a particular faith, in this case Christianity. If you are an atheist and find comfort in your humanism then fine, go with it. I'm not disagreeing that people have used religion to hurt and destroy other people. I have many questions myself, Christianity is one thing I'm questioning and studying as I travel my road to healing (hopefully). As far as Christianity is concerned, whether its true or false, those who use it to destroy others are misrepresenting that particular faith. I'm just suggesting that you learn the difference if you're seeking comfort from this faith. It's not the faith but the people who misrepresent it that has hurt you. The faith itself teaches that there is hope, forgiveness and healing, and that is what we are all seeking isn't it?

If Christianity isn't your cup of tea then what I'm saying really has no meaning for you. I'm addressing this to those who want to find their answers in this particular faith. This particular faith says that homosexuality, prostitution, adultery, etc are sins. If you disagree with this then Christianity is not the faith for you, seek elsewhere. If it is the faith for you then instead of trying to change what it clearly states, conform yourself to what it teaches. You won't find peace by distorting it's teachings. Seek another faith or no faith at all if that is your desire. Don't torment yourself or let others torment you over this. I was merely trying to help you set your self esteem by a means other than your family who misrepresented the faith they say they belong to.

A final statement, if one is truly a Christian then he/she is compelled out of love to try and persuade others that there is hope, forgiveness, healing and eternal life in their God. If they don't then they are not being true to their faith. It means that they do love and care for you no matter how misguided you think they are. Try seeing that, that they do love you and care about you rather than trying to destroy you. Look at them from a different point of view, it might help you to see yourself in a different light, as someone who is lovable. This will help your self esteem. It doesn't matter whether the person is a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, etc. People who lovingly share their faith you care about you and want the best for you.


I don't ever remember hearing about Jesus trying to persuade others? So why do others of the same faith feel like they have to? I don't want to get into an arguement about being gay and christianity but there are christian churches that do accept gay people and don't believe in this ideology that if your gay your going to hell.. These churches aren't conforming to what you believe the Christian faith to be.

I think the jury is still out whether or not the Christian faith says that a persons sexual orientation is a sin... God did not write the bible. Man did.. As those have been on the end of the bible as a weapon, can see that men of god don't always speak from the truth... Plus there are examples that views and beliefs can change, look at the old testement. Finally there are only six or seven>
_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347098 - 12/04/10 07:18 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Originally Posted By: Derek Stephens
With me trying to question my spirituality, it has caused others to feel the need to persuade me in their way of thinking when it comes to God. I have always believed people who feel like they have to persuade someone aren't really secure with their own faith.


In my opinion this statement is one of the profound truisms of recovery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a slightly different topic but related to this thread, I've had a couple of messages come my way asking that this thread be removed to the spirituality forum because it is talking about spiritual topics. I have resisted moving this thread to spirituality for the following reason:

The forum de>
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

Top
#347099 - 12/04/10 07:31 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Oh but John, you got religion in my gay cheerios! smile

But seriously, I do agree with you that this is an interesting, pertinent discussion for this forum. It's been encouraging to see most of the respondents coming forward with gay-positive, affirming, and supportive replies. Religious or atheist or anywhere in between, we all have our place here.

Heal well,
~Matty


Top
#347100 - 12/04/10 07:38 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Moortje]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I honestly, would not feel comfortable posting this in the normal spiritual section... Having this section for Gay/Bi/Trans survivors gives me a level of safety that I don't feel I have in other sections of the straight world, even on here...

Thank you for keeping it here.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347102 - 12/04/10 07:50 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
I don't want to start another topic on the discussion of moving this thread. I just want to blurt out how I feel.

What I will say is that when this issue or something similar gets discussed in the spirituality forum, I feel as a gay man that we get hammered by straight and sexually confused men and their twisted view of religion and being gay. I try to be understanding of where other people are at in their journey, but in doing so I end up silencing myself. To put it bluntly, it pisses me off and I get angry, not something I normally feel. At least here there is some attempt to counteract the negative messages that we as gay survivors have to endure every day of our lives and replace them with affirming and positive beliefs.


Top
#347104 - 12/04/10 08:01 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: blaidd
I don't want to start another topic on the discussion of moving this thread. I just want to blurt out how I feel.

What I will say is that when this issue or something similar gets discussed in the spirituality forum, I feel as a gay man that we get hammered by straight and sexually confused men and their twisted view of religion and being gay. I try to be understanding of where other people are at in their journey, but in doing so I end up silencing myself. To put it bluntly, it pisses me off and I get angry, not something I normally feel. At least here there is some attempt to counteract the negative messages that we as gay survivors have to endure every day of our lives and replace them with affirming and positive beliefs.


Very well said blaidd, and thank you for having the COURAGE to speak your truth and vent your authentic feelings. I know that (for me at least) that does not come easily. Those feelings have merit and deserve to be voiced. It's a sentiment I most certainly can sympathize with. I am grateful that this forum is (or most definitely should be) our 'safe' space from such senseless negativity and hatred by the forces of judgment and ignorance.

~Matty


Top
#347109 - 12/04/10 09:38 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
wow, blaidd... so very well said... thank you for saying these words, that I couldn't say myself...

big huggs....

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347164 - 12/05/10 01:34 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: WalkingSouth
"Discussions among male survivors about issues specific to being a survivor and gay, bi, or transsexual."

Hey WalkingSouth, is there any chance we could change "transsexual" in the forum de>
_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#347182 - 12/05/10 05:18 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
chuckb Offline


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 32
According to the bible Jesus commanded his disciples to make disciples, "Mat 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."" Paul, standing before Agrippa, "Acts 26:28-29 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."" Paul himself stated, "1 Cor 9:16 Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"" There are many others but these three should suffice to make the point. Christians are to spread their faith. You may not like it but the U.S. Constitution guarantees the freedom OF religion, not the freedom from it. They have the right. You don't have to listen, that is your right. Christians share their faith with me quite often, if they're sincere I don't mind. If they're legalistic bible thumping twits I tell them what I think of them and walk away. My point remains the same, genuine Christians share their faith with you because they do love you and they care what happens to you. You can disagree with their doctrines, but if you can see that their motives are good you can see yourself as lovable and build up your self esteem.

The jury isn't out on what the bible says, it's clear. I'll use only section here, "1 Cor 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." First, you started this thread and the question you posed is "Is there Salvation for those who are gay?" These answers that question, yes. What you don't like is the bible groups homosexuality along with adulterers, prostitutes, slanderers, swindlers, etc. Those who believe the bible is God's word will do the same. If you disagree with it then Christianity isn't for you. But is not out, the bible calls it sin in both the old and new testaments. The bible claims to be given to men by God, "2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."" From this it is made clear that Christians are suppose to get their doctrines from the bible. The bible claims that it comes from God. If you don't believe it then move on to something else, or nothing at all. In my own search for the truth I learned a few years ago that if I don't believe and trust what a religion says I'm not going to reword it to make it say what I want it to say. If I find its statements to be false I reject it and look at something else. I'm not going to let its adherents torment me with their silly dogmas. I've also learned that if they're genuine then their misguided efforts are out of love and concern so I'm not harsh with them. To continue on, "2 Pet 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." Again the bible claims to be from God. If you believe this then follow it, if not, move on from it. But true Christians are coming to you in love, not to hurt you. Others who claim to be Christians have other motives, "2 Pet 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." I agree with you that the bible has little to say about homosexuality and too many Christians act like it is the worst sin anyone can commit. The several times the bible does mention homosexuality it is alway listed among other sins, no better and no worse. Adultery and fornication is listed far far more.

I grew up Catholic and I rejected it many years ago. I found too many of her doctrines strange and I can't accept her history of brutal murders of those who disagreed with her. Too many lies including the Pope is suppose to be the ruler of the church world wide. I looked into Islam, I rejected it because of her history, how it was created, and how it was spread. I also find many of her dogmas to be false. I looked into Wicca because I had several friends who were Wiccans. I didn't enjoy the nude gatherings, and after all the CSA I had to endure I didn't want it to continue within their covens. I found Calvinism to be repulsive and the so called Christian god of Calvinism to be more deceptive than Satan. I could go on but this should suffice. I want to know the truth and I want to know why. IF IF IF IF IF Christianity is true then I want to be what its God wants me to be, as HE will determine our ultimate destiny. IF IF IF IF IF Christianity is true then some of the good things it offers is healing, freedom, and a good eternal life free from the hell our perpetrators put us in. If I find that Christianity is true I certainly won't reject it because it considers homosexuality a sin.

You asked me if their love is misguided, well, why don't I hear this from survivors when it comes to Oprah and those two horrible shows she did regarding survivors? This woman exploited us to make herself richer than her billionaire butt already is. Her whole body language shouted she didn't care. She wanted ratings which mean more money. Jerry Springer couldn't have done a worse disservice to us than Oprah did, but I hear too many survivors say, "At least she brought our issues to the public." Who will take us seriously now that tabloid television exploited us before the entire world at the hands of Oprah? Where is this same concern about her misguided love?

For me, I can't stand living in this torment every day. If Islam proved to be true and offered healing I would be a Muslim today. As I said, I want answers, and I want to know the truth. I see truth in two ways. This "your truth may not be my truth" only goes so far. Aspirin may cure your headache but I may need Tylenol. Your truth will in this scenario will be different from my truth. However 1 + 1 will always = 2 no matter how much you or I would believe it = 3. One of us would not have the truth no matter how much we both believe we do. If Allah is truly God and Mohammad is his prophet then all Christians are deceived in believing Jesus died for them. Both can not be true. That is the claim of Islam. If Islam is true then I want to conform to it rather than change it to suit my wants and desires. Again, your original question was, according to Christianity, is there salvation for gays? Again, yes, as there is for every other sinner. No one is perfect, we all fall short no matter what religious beliefs (or lack thereof) you have. "I'm only human, I'm not perfect." is a frequent cry when we make mistakes.

As for intolerance, the most intolerant people I have ever dealt with were gays. The hatred, the attacks, the name calling, the foul language, etc, and over nonsense. I like Paul McCartney better than John Lennon and you would think I committed the gravest sin ever. Yahoo had to shut down a group dedicated to Mary Wilson of the Supremes because of the outrageous, intolerant, viscous and vulgar behavior of gays who attacked those who like Diana Ross better and who stated they would vote for George W. Bush rather than John Kerry. Their behavior was far worse than the most arrogant, self righteous so called Christian I've ever interacted with. I'm certainly not going to let them determine my self esteem. I have enough issues to deal with, their opinions of me mean squat. I'm not about to let trashy people who can't put together a complete sentence without the use of vulgarity determine my worth in life.

_________________________
I want to know the truth and I want to know why.l

Top
#347193 - 12/05/10 07:14 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
efm-

I also support the change to "transgender". I was a big fan of a TG radio show from the age of 15 all the way until they went off the air after 12 years in 2006. That helped me a lot with my terminology (ie, while people don't adhere to universal labels, it's generally in better taste to call someone 'transgender' than 'transgendered', since you don't see many folks identifying themselves as 'gayed', hehe).

Let's keep working towards expanding the language and minds!

~Matty


Top
#347194 - 12/05/10 07:36 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
There is a whole litany of other interpretations of what the bible does or doesn't say about homosexuality, that are affirming and positive towards a gay people.

The notion that you can not be a fully functioning, well adjusted, happy and soulful, out gay person and a Christian is a myth and a lie.

I'm not going to get into a theological discussion of>

Top
#347207 - 12/05/10 11:33 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
We each have our own journeys and pathways to recovery and healing...

All I can do is speak what is best for me... My post even though it was put as a question wasn't really for anyone else to tell me if there is salvation for gays. For too long I have believed everything that everyone in my life has said about me or my kind. So by starting to question these things, it allows me to come out from under the shadows to my real self...

This is how I heal by asking myself these questions and discovering my own truths, not others truths... and realizing that I don't have to base who I am on how others view me...

In the end, I can't control anyone but myself and the same goes with others views, beliefs and opinions. I will stand up for my beliefs, especially if it affects me but eventually for me it is best if I just walk away because it really doesn't affect me...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347214 - 12/06/10 12:34 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Derek,

Beautifully said, and what a strong, elegant and even graceful way to rise above the negativity, shown even by some. You seem to be asking just the right questions, and to just the right person: yourself. Because only you can truly give yourself the truthful answers to the questions you have about "you" and where your comfort level is. Anyone else trying to force Christianist doctrine posing as "answers" down your throat clearly has a negative agenda and not your actual interests at heart. You seem to have your head on right about this issue, and I wish you all the best healing in your journey of spiritual self discovery and acceptance.

Heal well, ~Matty


Top
#347558 - 12/08/10 07:19 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Avery46]
weharry1959 Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 70
Loc: N/W Pennsylvania, USA
Derek - I don't have any answers! but I can share with you that What get's you into Heaven, isn't something that you do or don't do, it is one simple thing, to have a personal relationship with Jesus. I've learned he'll meet me where I am at, I don't have to be something or do something first.
I've had serious discussions with my wife, children and my daughter's fiancée who is studying to be a Pastor (Full Gospel, Pentecostal bible Believing Faith) What I have found out is that I don't have the answers and won't placate you with one line of verse to justify what I believe other than to say to you. That I believe that there is only one impardonable sin that that all sin, justifies us not going to heaven. But, it is that personal relationship with Christ that carries me through. I know that I feel like one mistake away of Jesus leaving me today, but He doesn't and he won't. Derek, He loves you, But also "He LIKES you." an thought that rocked my world and help me to overcome,what I believe, are Satan's ill placed suggestions, that I am nothing and worthless of God's love. If I spend my time, with God, I'll not be spending time, subjectively making judgments that are better left to God. For not having much to say, I've said probably too much. I will keep you in my prayers and send Christ-like, loving thoughts your direction.

_________________________
Forgiving does not always mean everything goes back to the way it was. There are still natural consequences for what was done.

Top
#347578 - 12/09/10 12:15 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: weharry1959]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I honor your experience and what works for you... I appreciate your feedback...

I think the issue I have with religion and those who practice it, is this idea they know what or won't get me into heaven... Based on what you said since I don't have a relationship with Jesus, I won't go to heaven...

I personally don't believe that deep inside. I can't because I will live my life in fear like I have for so many years... and that is not healthy for me...

I think it is wonderful that you have found this personal connection with god through jesus but that is not my journey...

In the last week since my post here, I have come to terms with some things. This fear of my spirituality has been lifted. I now can come to terms what spirituality means for me... and demystify some things my family and others tried to instill in me.

Personally I don't think spirituality is something that you are able to completely figure out or even answer... But you do have to figure out what is best for you. It just is... I have to come to learn that faith to me is hope... Not in something exterior but in myself and mankind...

I believe Christ was a great man, who was perscueted for his beliefs much like many of us have done to us today. I believe he was a messenger but not the only one... There are other truly good people in this world like Mother Theresa, Gahndi, etc. As I start to heal more I believe that life is about being the best kind of person you can be. I choose to not worship Jesus or anyone else for many different reasons. Mainly because that is not my core belief system.

If I was to align myself with a religion it would be closer to the Buddhism faith.

All this time I have been searching for or fearing something that I was told was on the exterior when all along I have held it within me... and that is love...

Granted I haven't got a grasp on everything when it comes to my own spirituality but I have lived enough to know what it isn't for me... and that being the christian way of life (god, jesus, etc). I am sure you and others of certain faiths may not understand that. I notice even when I say what does and doesn't work for me, some in the christian faith still feel the need to tell me the right way...

If god is this amazing creature that has created all this wonderfulness in six days? Wouldn't you think he/she/it would create a way to get the message across that would reach all parts of the world?

There are many ways to the same destination on this earth and I believe the same goes for spirituality.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347594 - 12/09/10 07:18 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
I'm so glad to see you having worked through this issue and come to a position of strength and grace, no matter which path you choose.

To break free from the negative messages from our family of origin can be a very liberating thing indeed, regardless of their religious beliefs. I wish you well.


Top
#347629 - 12/09/10 01:17 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
thanks blaidd... huggs

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347729 - 12/10/10 10:01 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
weharry1959 Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 70
Loc: N/W Pennsylvania, USA
Derek - I honor you thoughts and beliefs. I know it is a journey that will take you a long way. I've learned that we all have seasons that are sometimes long and hard. With regard to Jesus. I'd like to share with you a 1 hr video that I believe have answered many questions about this Jesus. It is from an Athiest Investigative Reporter. I would encourage you to be open minded. It is:
http://www.videosurf.com/video/the-case-for-christ-59777059

With all my love and prayers I wish you much peace and healing.

_________________________
Forgiving does not always mean everything goes back to the way it was. There are still natural consequences for what was done.

Top
#347752 - 12/10/10 12:31 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: weharry1959]
somanyquestions Offline


Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Like most things in life, everything with moderation. I have and continue to travel the world learning about new cultures, looking into other's religions outside of our Western culture.

Religion can keep one on track and help in their journey. However, at the same time, those too far into any religion can create hate and angst amongst those who are not in that exact religion.

What I see in religions, and I am from an Irish-Catholic background, is that WE are not here to judge ANYONE. If any of these religions are true, then we will have ONE finally power to answer to come that day. And, on my side I will have a good amount of questions to be asking of him/her before I step through the pearly gates if they exist.

Religion makes you feel complete as far as a group who has faith as you do, it can tear lands apart too as we see too often. It can also devastate those who don't 'fit' in to that particular faith. Jewish, Catholic, Protastant, Islamic, Buddist, Sikh and too many other religious to list here. By accepting one you have to say all the others are not accurate. Again, WE are not the true judge of anyone while here if we are indeed religious ourselves. To say the Sikh religion is wrong or that Christians are bad because of x, y, z. It can go on and on in this world no matter what faith you are or are not.

So, my point to you is that there is NO right or wrong while we are here. And, those who you fear are judging and casting stones your way about being gay are the ones who will have to answer to such hateful actions to others while 'here in his likeness.'

Be the best person you can be. Be kind to people, animals and life without being a doormat. Be proud and on that judgment day when we all may or may not find the answer you can stand up for the life you lived.

Your salvation is now getting your life together, dealing with the past trauma we all share here and moving forward to lead a productive and happy existance.


Top
#347779 - 12/10/10 04:38 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: weharry1959]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
You don't need to convince me of what you believe in, those are your truths and I respect you for that...

Please respect mine. I don't need to be saved from my afterlife... I am not sure why people feel the need to consistently push at someone, especially when they tell you time and time again it is not for them, your views and beliefs on something, even if they do it with love...

I believe in a higher power. I believe though that this said higher power is something found within us all.

It appears you think you need to convince me of the ways and truths of Jesus. It is not for me to say what was or wasn't true of Jesus, especially with his relationship to God...

Somethings a person has to find out on their own. A hundred people can tell someone something but until they are ready to hear it, they won't accept it... I am not saying that I will ever come to accept christianity as my religion and my faith but I am just saying that each person has their own journey, beliefs, views and truths.

I will be the first to admit, I don't have it all figured out. I have come to realize that I still have my spirituality, which until recently I thought I had lost... I have had years of others clogging my inner spiritual connections and it is going to take time to overcome this. Even though I don't have many things figured out, I know what works for me and doesn't... Worshiping this figure from the past, as good as he was, is not for me...

Even though I choose to not worship Jesus or practice christianity. I belive in essence of Jesus and many of his teachings. That being to be the best person possible and to treat others with the ut most love and care. To stick true to what you believe in.

I have an issue with worshiping a man, even if he was the son of god. I believe if anything you should worship (follow)the idea of humanity, love and compassion... For two long I have felt like I didn't not only desreve this from others but felt I could only give that to others and not myself.

For too many years I have allowed others views and beliefs, come between me and that love. Others in my past, would not allow me to come to my own conclusions or understandings of what spirituality meant to me... They tried to convince me of their ways. They tried to tell me their way was the only way. It is my way, or the hellway... This all or nothing thinking is harmful for me, it is what caused me to throw out my spirituality. I couldn't believe in their way of thinking and I couldn't fathom the idea of burning in hell for who I was, so the only alternative was to not believe in anything... It wasn't until recently that I realized that how could I not believe in their own way of thinking and not another? It was believe in what they thought or not at all. It was still believing parts of what they taught me.

Meaning, that they wouldn't allow for another way. Either way meant no afterlife. So I internalized it as that I was damaged or bad. They had this black and white way of God... That there was only one door into heaven. I have come to learn that if I didn't believe in their views on God, I didn't have to believe in this idea that there was only one avenue into the afterlife... It allowed me to have this alternative way of thinking when it comes to my spirituality. That I was still sacrificing my own love because of others beliefs.

I will no longer let anyone take away my love and the ones I love...

I am still healing not just from the spiritual and emotional abuse, but also the sexual abuse...

Please respect my boundaries. They are important to me. I am trying to overcome some things and I don't want to project or be defensive but if I keep getting poked I will defend myself. This was my post, in the gay section which is a safe place for me to get support. Granted I know that I can't keep people from saying things to me, but I will let my voice be heard... It is like putting air into a balloon, you can only do that so much before it explodes.


With sexual abuse being able to say NO is a very powerful thing for a survivor. It also applies to spiritual abuse. So I am saying NO.... and will continue to say NO, until I don't have to anymore...


_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347803 - 12/10/10 10:41 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
somanyquestions Offline


Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Hey, I'm hoping that your last response is not to mine. If it is, you misread it. while I greatly refrained on my thoughts on religion as they are not along the lines of those others pointing you towards salvation sites. However, and if you read my post, respecting other and their beliefs, it was so YOU would understand you are your own person, make your own decisions and are NOT to be judged by others. No one has the right to judge you. That is unless of course you are engaging in activity such as what we experienced as kids. Then, I will judge you to no end.

My point as an educated, well traveled man, who just happens to have this horrible f'd up childhood secret that he is finally dealing with, was that you are your own salvation. No ancient book from any land or culture should cast you into shame over who you are and who you want to be with as an adult.

If that was in response to my post, then re read it. It took me a LONG time and much travel and worldwide education to not have religious guilt in my life.

Again, you are your own person. IF there is a final power to answer to, that is who you answer to. NOT the torch bearing, "morality" pushing people who are casting judgment on you here.

I actually have a good born again Christian friend who knows to tread lightly with me there. Even she jokes that the closer to the front of the church one is, the bigger the sinner they secretly are.

Therefore I again hope you did not read my reply as pushing ANY faith on you.


Top
#347807 - 12/10/10 11:33 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: somanyquestions]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
My response was not at you at all... It says in my post as to whom I was responding to and it wasn't to him entirely... In the post title it says RE:

This is all recovery for me... to be able to say the things I am saying today, is crutial for me to overcome so many of these things...

My voice is important and this place allows me to have my voice...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#347874 - 12/11/10 09:44 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
chuckb Offline


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 32
I've read some of this before and I believe it twists things that are clearly stated. Be that as it may, it is enough to say that gays can be saved if the Christian faith is the truth. That after all is his question. I hope he finds the peace he is looking for.

_________________________
I want to know the truth and I want to know why.l

Top
#347881 - 12/11/10 11:54 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I wrote this post right after getting horribly triggered at my aunts funeral. When I wrote this the fears were very raw, so where the images of what I went through...

I have since been able to look past all of that and see the truth as it is for me... My post was me questioning things and putting it out there. I really wasn't asking anyone to tell me if there was salvation for gays, it was more retorical and to myself.

I don't need saving from anyone, religion or god... my child needed saving but that is too late for that when it comes to others, so now it must be me to save him... and that is what I am doing now, processing what I have been through and what I continue to go through...

it is nice to have back some of my spirituality.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#348168 - 12/15/10 01:42 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Avery46]
Gamgee Offline


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada
If you believe in God as the Creator, then He created you as you are. The percentage of the population which is gay (as evidenced through genetic markers) is consistent worldwide, in all groups and countries, more evidence that it is not a choice, but that is who you are. Re. going to Hell if you do not live up to the standards of certain so-called Christian religions, how can these religions combine the principles of the fear based, judgmental Old Testament with the loving, accepting words and actions of Jesus. The purpose of His presence on Earth was to show us a new way. If you are Christian, you should be following what Christ taught by word and example. I have never understood how the Old and New Testaments could be in the same Bible. It is impossible to follow both. Sincerely, Ron. P.S. I do not follow any religious practice, but respect those who do so with love and tolerance. I try to follow the examples of Jesus and the Buddha, because they make sense and help me to live well.


Top
#348175 - 12/15/10 02:26 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
No problem Derek! I am honored and happy to meet a guy who is finding his own answers.

I'm reminded of a Rumi quote...

"There are many rivers and one Ocean."

I believe that whatever teachings you follow, they are simply rivers. Hopefully, they lead you... But the Truth is in the Ocean.

I wish with all my heart that all survivors, especially gay guys, can find their special connection with the Great Mystery. My faith in God has helped me through.

Personally, I believe equally in Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, White Buffalo Calf Woman, and others. I am lucky to have seen amazing things in the path of Yoga and the Red Path... I have felt a deep presence of something larger than myself. So, for me, I can feel there is some force working for our benefit even when it hurts.

When I see how gay men and survivors of abuse have been hurt by religion, my heart aches and yearns for that shame to be healed.

Oh my God I remember when I was staffing a New Warrior Training Adventure I did this huge clearing with an effigy of Jesus at this Catholic camp where we held the training. It was epic! I raged, and then collapsed into a deep well of shame.


Top
#348177 - 12/15/10 02:33 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: risingagain]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
PS For Derek and others ....

One great documentary, if you are looking for a spiritual loosening up, is called Dances of Ecstasy. It shows how different cultures experience Spirit, through ritual and dance.... there is some absolutely incredible footage in there. It's a beautiful film.


Top
#348180 - 12/15/10 04:40 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: risingagain]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I have also wondered that, how others can follow parts of the bible but not be aware of others?

I have never doubted whether being gay was a choice or not, for me I was born this way... Guess I believed what was told to me for so many years about my salvation... I didn't listen to my own feelings, beliefs and gut... Those days are over...

I was told on a constant basis that I was going to hell... Well what I went through was hell... but I made it through it... I have done my time and it wasn't even from my own doing... No one is going to take away my salvation...

I loved the quote "there are many rivers and one ocean", thanks for sharing it...

I think some use the bible, god and jesus as a way to box themselves in... They don't feel balanced and they use it as a way to calm the storm... Anything that falls outside of that box and begins to crack away at the outer edge is rejected... I think that is where the whole "Save The World" game comes into play...

Gamgee I like how you said "If you are Christian, you should be following what Christ taught by word and example." Many who I have met have not... They use fear to teach... Well fear doesn't work for me, it just pushes me further away...

Did Jesus ever tell anyone that they were going to hell?? So why do so many others feel they can?

Jesus was not over bearing, pushy or mean... He was loving, accepting and couragous.... If Christianity was based more on that, I might be able to follow it...

So I am having to find my own path to take...

Thanks for sharing guys, I really appreciate it...

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#348182 - 12/15/10 04:48 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
My abuser took so much from me... I am working on recovering what he took... I refuse to let anyone else take anything else away from me! Let alone my salvation and the ones I love, my happiness and my higher power. Which to me is the esscence of love!

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#348263 - 12/16/10 12:29 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I love the way you proclaim your birthright!

Go Derek!


Top
#348419 - 12/18/10 01:02 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: risingagain]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
thanks, I am trying... huggs

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#348562 - 12/20/10 02:35 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
Btw, I have to say this... It is so nice to have really worked on this trigger and issue, and to have come out from underneath the darkness of others trying to mold me into the way they see me as...

When I first wrote this, I wrote it with fear and feeling horribly triggered. I no longer feel so heavy due to my processing it on here. I also feel a lot more connected to my spirituality.

Sure I still have a lot of questions and things I don't know the answers for, but this is a positive step for me...

smile

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

Top
#348590 - 12/20/10 11:04 AM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
That's wonderful news to hear. The great tragedy of sexual abuse is that sometimes it doesn't just take our innocence and our ability to trust, it also rips away our faith as well.

For gay survivors, even if our faith does survive our abuse it's still under daily assault that can end up separating us from the divine when other believers tell us we are not worthy of, or loved by, our god unless we stop being who he made us.

It's liberating to realize that no man can know the heart of a god, and that there are faith communities who see and hear the loving and compassionate god and not the vengeful and angry one.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#354903 - 02/25/11 03:56 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
well seems weird Mort

I do not think it was a comparison at all

if God or Jesus were to forgive prostitues and theives, then why not way Homosexuals. In other words they may be considered a worse sin. Not sure if Jesus has categories for types of sin though. Lets go a step further I do not think just being Gay hurts others. So I do not feel Jesus needs to forgive me. All I am doing is loving one person.

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

Top
#356435 - 03/13/11 05:31 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: michael Joseph]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
"is there salvation for those who are gay?"

why do we even have to ask this question?

i get that some Christians feel threatened by homosexuality. that is different than alcoholism, for example, that has clearly demonstrable negative consequences.


Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  ModTeam 

I agree that my access and use of the MaleSurvivor discussion forums and chat room is subject to the terms of this Agreement. AND the sole discretion of MaleSurvivor.
I agree that my use of MaleSurvivor resources are AT-WILL, and that my posting privileges may be terminated at any time, and for any reason by MaleSurvivor.