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#347098 - 12/04/10 07:18 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Originally Posted By: Derek Stephens
With me trying to question my spirituality, it has caused others to feel the need to persuade me in their way of thinking when it comes to God. I have always believed people who feel like they have to persuade someone aren't really secure with their own faith.


In my opinion this statement is one of the profound truisms of recovery.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On a slightly different topic but related to this thread, I've had a couple of messages come my way asking that this thread be removed to the spirituality forum because it is talking about spiritual topics. I have resisted moving this thread to spirituality for the following reason:

The forum de>
_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#347099 - 12/04/10 07:31 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Oh but John, you got religion in my gay cheerios! smile

But seriously, I do agree with you that this is an interesting, pertinent discussion for this forum. It's been encouraging to see most of the respondents coming forward with gay-positive, affirming, and supportive replies. Religious or atheist or anywhere in between, we all have our place here.

Heal well,
~Matty


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#347100 - 12/04/10 07:38 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: Moortje]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I honestly, would not feel comfortable posting this in the normal spiritual section... Having this section for Gay/Bi/Trans survivors gives me a level of safety that I don't feel I have in other sections of the straight world, even on here...

Thank you for keeping it here.

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#347102 - 12/04/10 07:50 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
I don't want to start another topic on the discussion of moving this thread. I just want to blurt out how I feel.

What I will say is that when this issue or something similar gets discussed in the spirituality forum, I feel as a gay man that we get hammered by straight and sexually confused men and their twisted view of religion and being gay. I try to be understanding of where other people are at in their journey, but in doing so I end up silencing myself. To put it bluntly, it pisses me off and I get angry, not something I normally feel. At least here there is some attempt to counteract the negative messages that we as gay survivors have to endure every day of our lives and replace them with affirming and positive beliefs.


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#347104 - 12/04/10 08:01 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: blaidd
I don't want to start another topic on the discussion of moving this thread. I just want to blurt out how I feel.

What I will say is that when this issue or something similar gets discussed in the spirituality forum, I feel as a gay man that we get hammered by straight and sexually confused men and their twisted view of religion and being gay. I try to be understanding of where other people are at in their journey, but in doing so I end up silencing myself. To put it bluntly, it pisses me off and I get angry, not something I normally feel. At least here there is some attempt to counteract the negative messages that we as gay survivors have to endure every day of our lives and replace them with affirming and positive beliefs.


Very well said blaidd, and thank you for having the COURAGE to speak your truth and vent your authentic feelings. I know that (for me at least) that does not come easily. Those feelings have merit and deserve to be voiced. It's a sentiment I most certainly can sympathize with. I am grateful that this forum is (or most definitely should be) our 'safe' space from such senseless negativity and hatred by the forces of judgment and ignorance.

~Matty


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#347109 - 12/04/10 09:38 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: blaidd]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
wow, blaidd... so very well said... thank you for saying these words, that I couldn't say myself...

big huggs....

_________________________
I am a gay guy just trying to find my way...

http://itismytimetoshine.wordpress.com

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#347164 - 12/05/10 01:34 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: WalkingSouth
"Discussions among male survivors about issues specific to being a survivor and gay, bi, or transsexual."

Hey WalkingSouth, is there any chance we could change "transsexual" in the forum de>
_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#347182 - 12/05/10 05:18 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
chuckb Offline


Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 32
According to the bible Jesus commanded his disciples to make disciples, "Mat 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."" Paul, standing before Agrippa, "Acts 26:28-29 Then Agrippa said to Paul, "Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?" Paul replied, "Short time or long--I pray God that not only you but all who are listening to me today may become what I am, except for these chains."" Paul himself stated, "1 Cor 9:16 Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"" There are many others but these three should suffice to make the point. Christians are to spread their faith. You may not like it but the U.S. Constitution guarantees the freedom OF religion, not the freedom from it. They have the right. You don't have to listen, that is your right. Christians share their faith with me quite often, if they're sincere I don't mind. If they're legalistic bible thumping twits I tell them what I think of them and walk away. My point remains the same, genuine Christians share their faith with you because they do love you and they care what happens to you. You can disagree with their doctrines, but if you can see that their motives are good you can see yourself as lovable and build up your self esteem.

The jury isn't out on what the bible says, it's clear. I'll use only section here, "1 Cor 6:9-11 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." First, you started this thread and the question you posed is "Is there Salvation for those who are gay?" These answers that question, yes. What you don't like is the bible groups homosexuality along with adulterers, prostitutes, slanderers, swindlers, etc. Those who believe the bible is God's word will do the same. If you disagree with it then Christianity isn't for you. But is not out, the bible calls it sin in both the old and new testaments. The bible claims to be given to men by God, "2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."" From this it is made clear that Christians are suppose to get their doctrines from the bible. The bible claims that it comes from God. If you don't believe it then move on to something else, or nothing at all. In my own search for the truth I learned a few years ago that if I don't believe and trust what a religion says I'm not going to reword it to make it say what I want it to say. If I find its statements to be false I reject it and look at something else. I'm not going to let its adherents torment me with their silly dogmas. I've also learned that if they're genuine then their misguided efforts are out of love and concern so I'm not harsh with them. To continue on, "2 Pet 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." Again the bible claims to be from God. If you believe this then follow it, if not, move on from it. But true Christians are coming to you in love, not to hurt you. Others who claim to be Christians have other motives, "2 Pet 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." I agree with you that the bible has little to say about homosexuality and too many Christians act like it is the worst sin anyone can commit. The several times the bible does mention homosexuality it is alway listed among other sins, no better and no worse. Adultery and fornication is listed far far more.

I grew up Catholic and I rejected it many years ago. I found too many of her doctrines strange and I can't accept her history of brutal murders of those who disagreed with her. Too many lies including the Pope is suppose to be the ruler of the church world wide. I looked into Islam, I rejected it because of her history, how it was created, and how it was spread. I also find many of her dogmas to be false. I looked into Wicca because I had several friends who were Wiccans. I didn't enjoy the nude gatherings, and after all the CSA I had to endure I didn't want it to continue within their covens. I found Calvinism to be repulsive and the so called Christian god of Calvinism to be more deceptive than Satan. I could go on but this should suffice. I want to know the truth and I want to know why. IF IF IF IF IF Christianity is true then I want to be what its God wants me to be, as HE will determine our ultimate destiny. IF IF IF IF IF Christianity is true then some of the good things it offers is healing, freedom, and a good eternal life free from the hell our perpetrators put us in. If I find that Christianity is true I certainly won't reject it because it considers homosexuality a sin.

You asked me if their love is misguided, well, why don't I hear this from survivors when it comes to Oprah and those two horrible shows she did regarding survivors? This woman exploited us to make herself richer than her billionaire butt already is. Her whole body language shouted she didn't care. She wanted ratings which mean more money. Jerry Springer couldn't have done a worse disservice to us than Oprah did, but I hear too many survivors say, "At least she brought our issues to the public." Who will take us seriously now that tabloid television exploited us before the entire world at the hands of Oprah? Where is this same concern about her misguided love?

For me, I can't stand living in this torment every day. If Islam proved to be true and offered healing I would be a Muslim today. As I said, I want answers, and I want to know the truth. I see truth in two ways. This "your truth may not be my truth" only goes so far. Aspirin may cure your headache but I may need Tylenol. Your truth will in this scenario will be different from my truth. However 1 + 1 will always = 2 no matter how much you or I would believe it = 3. One of us would not have the truth no matter how much we both believe we do. If Allah is truly God and Mohammad is his prophet then all Christians are deceived in believing Jesus died for them. Both can not be true. That is the claim of Islam. If Islam is true then I want to conform to it rather than change it to suit my wants and desires. Again, your original question was, according to Christianity, is there salvation for gays? Again, yes, as there is for every other sinner. No one is perfect, we all fall short no matter what religious beliefs (or lack thereof) you have. "I'm only human, I'm not perfect." is a frequent cry when we make mistakes.

As for intolerance, the most intolerant people I have ever dealt with were gays. The hatred, the attacks, the name calling, the foul language, etc, and over nonsense. I like Paul McCartney better than John Lennon and you would think I committed the gravest sin ever. Yahoo had to shut down a group dedicated to Mary Wilson of the Supremes because of the outrageous, intolerant, viscous and vulgar behavior of gays who attacked those who like Diana Ross better and who stated they would vote for George W. Bush rather than John Kerry. Their behavior was far worse than the most arrogant, self righteous so called Christian I've ever interacted with. I'm certainly not going to let them determine my self esteem. I have enough issues to deal with, their opinions of me mean squat. I'm not about to let trashy people who can't put together a complete sentence without the use of vulgarity determine my worth in life.

_________________________
I want to know the truth and I want to know why.l

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#347193 - 12/05/10 07:14 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: chuckb]
Moortje Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/20/09
Posts: 104
Loc: Oregon
efm-

I also support the change to "transgender". I was a big fan of a TG radio show from the age of 15 all the way until they went off the air after 12 years in 2006. That helped me a lot with my terminology (ie, while people don't adhere to universal labels, it's generally in better taste to call someone 'transgender' than 'transgendered', since you don't see many folks identifying themselves as 'gayed', hehe).

Let's keep working towards expanding the language and minds!

~Matty


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#347194 - 12/05/10 07:36 PM Re: Is there Salvation for those who are gay? [Re: diamondheart]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
There is a whole litany of other interpretations of what the bible does or doesn't say about homosexuality, that are affirming and positive towards a gay people.

The notion that you can not be a fully functioning, well adjusted, happy and soulful, out gay person and a Christian is a myth and a lie.

I'm not going to get into a theological discussion of>

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