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#345102 - 11/13/10 04:55 PM uncovering the problem
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi,
A little background. I have been trying to help a family member figure out what her husband's problem is. We have a friend who was molested as a child and she told us that he has all the symptoms of someone who has been molested. So, I started looking into this. It is at the point now where the wife feels her husband should enter a live-in program for those with sexual addictions as he has made life miserable for her and their children with his dishonesty about his behavior and neglect of the family. They have separated several times and this is her last resort. I have been researching sexual abuse and I understand that the dishonesty has to do with concealing the problem. The symptoms he exhibits does sound like someone who has been molested. When his wife has asked him about his childhood, he has said he could not remember anything. I am learning increasingly more about this subject the more I read. I saw the Opra show featuring Tyler Perry and the 2 subsequent shows with the 200 male survivors of sexual abuse. I am reading all the material posted at the Opra.com site related to these programs. It is very time consuming, but I'm getting the picture.

As of today I have a couple of questions:

1) How do you distinguish between whether the symptoms are those of molestation vs one who has never been molested but has been involved in immoral behaviors he is covering up, because he is ashamed of his past actions thus puts distance between himself and his family, displays unloving behaviors,acts out sexually etc.?

2) Out of those who have been molested, what is the difference between the 1/3 who go on to abuse vs the 2/3 who don't?


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#345129 - 11/13/10 07:36 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Quote:
Out of those who have been molested, what is the difference between the 1/3 who go on to abuse vs the 2/3 who don't?

Your figure of 1/3 of victims going on to abuse is totally inaccurate. The percentage of victims who later abuse is a fraction of that.

This is a myth that hurts the overwhelming majority of men who are victimized in childhood who do not go on to abuse others.


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#345132 - 11/13/10 08:02 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
SunnyGirl Offline


Registered: 07/13/10
Posts: 79
I wanted to reiterate what Ken said. As a licensed therapist and an expert on the subject, he knows what he's talking about. Please also see the myths page on this very website which addresses this topic: http://www.malesurvivor.org/myths.html.

I know that you are new to this subject, but as a supporter, I wanted to offer some helpful advice because, quite honestly, you may have isolated a lot of survivors in the way that you wrote your post. I'd just ask that you re-read what you wrote and consider whether your characterization of the situation and your choice of words is unduly critical or judgmental. I know you are trying to help your friend, but please be sensitive to those who use this board -- male survivors and also their supporters. Please check your facts before you quote things as if they are fact -- I could imagine that reading your post could be quite upsetting to survivors (and also their supporters) to read because it propagates this myth. If you don't know something, ask a question, but please don't state unsupported statistics as if they are truth. Any good book you might find on the subject will support Ken's statement.

Please just be sensitive to other users when you post and you'll find you get many more replies. The men here are working to better themselves and should be applauded for their efforts.

_________________________
"When one door of happiness closes, another opens, but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one that has been opened for us." - H. Keller

"Change & growth take place when a person has risked himself & dares to become involved w/ experimenting w/ his own life." - H. Otto

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#345138 - 11/13/10 09:03 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: SunnyGirl]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
I feel that you have both unfairly harshly criticized me. Is that any way to welcome a newbie to the board? I had no intention in the world of offending anyone. I had read this myth, as you call it, somewhere on this board I thought, or possibly at Oprah.com. If it is untrue, it was an honest mistake. When I read the 30% statistic earlier in the day, it answered one of my own questions as I had wondered what % of those who have been molested go on to molest. To S.- jumping on me as you did seems very unfriendly to me. If I made an error, all you had to say was the statistic I stated was incorrect and I would of thanked you and tried to retrace my steps to see where I read that statistic. But by judgmentally accusing me of purposely bringing a post to the board that was "unduly critical or judgmental" you show me that you are guilty of what you have accused me of. No, I meant nothing of the sort. I asked two honest questions and nothing more. I care very much about this subject. I can not think of anything more horrible then harming innocent children in this vile fashion. I want to work in any way I can to understand this abuse of power so I can help as many as I can. Labeling me with wrong motives as you did does not support me. I am not thin skinned, but what if I was? I think you are the one who needs to learn to be more sensitive in your remarks or you will turn away those who are sincerely here to help.



Edited by jesusfreesya (11/13/10 09:15 PM)

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#345141 - 11/13/10 09:39 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
I'm not a therapist (I'm a loved one of a survivor), but I'm guessing it would be hard to answer both of the questions you asked. People can have the same symptoms for totally different problems/causes. Again, I am not a therapist so I don't know for sure. Also, about the statistics, I think it is important to recognize that there are a lot of statistics out there about sexual abuse (and other things) and it often depends on who does the study or how the study is done. For instance, a lot of people will claim that females are sexually abused more than men, which may be true, but then one has to consider other factors such as men being less forthcoming, etc. My point being, I don't think ANYONE really knows the "true" statistics because so many people do not report abuse (this goes for statistics about perpetrators and victims). Anyhow, that's just my two cents. Thanks for visiting the board, Jesusfreesya.


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#345152 - 11/14/10 09:12 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: hopeandtry]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
hope4him,

Ty for the kind welcome and your ideas/answers to my questions. As I stated, I am a family member of a man who was possibly victimized as a child. We don't know for sure. I am searching for anyone who can shed light on the process they went through to determine if child molestation was indeed the cause of their loved one's inability to handle his role as husband/father or if it was something else. So far, I have read a number of accounts where wives said they went for many yrs. in troubled marriages, because their husbands could not come to grips with their past abuse. I am wondering if progress has been made today with interventions that help men deal with their past abuse, sooner, so that they and their families don't waste precious years of living when they could be in recovery?

Re the statistics, I read where a member of this site said he felt the statistic of 1 in 6 was way off. He felt the statistics should be 1 in 2 for both men and women. I see what you mean about how this is an often un-reported crime so no one can know clear percentages with any accuracy.

I am glad to hear the other posters say that it is a very small % of victims of this abuse who go on to repeat the abuse against others. I had the impression that this crime often repeats itself, because so often in the news when a perpetrator is apprehended, it comes out that he was also abused as a child.

Could you or someone else point me to the top texts on this subject? And a hard hitting question I am trying to find the answer to is, is there any information re the small % who do repeat the behavior if they consciously know they are harming a child as they were once harmed, or is it something they repeat without any conscious awareness?


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#345187 - 11/14/10 07:53 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
Honestly I would not worry so much about the repeat behavior thing. It's like this (from what I understand) - many perpetrators were abused, but a small percentage of victims become perpetrators. That makes sense to me, I guess, because the perpetrators had that background, but there are a much larger number of abused children who do not go on to repeat the behavior. Same with the general population. Think about most of the criminals you hear about. Usually they have some sort of background that influenced them to act in a bad way, but there are so many more people in the general population who had bad childhoods (or whatever factor you can think of) who do NOT commit crimes. It's the same to me. Obsessing about a survivor of sexual abuse becoming a perpetrator really is not on the mark to me. I can understand your concern of course, but I guess because I have SO many friends who were sexually abused (men and women) but have not harmed anyone else, it's easy for me to see why this is not something to worry about too much.

Anyway, another thing I wanted to mention is that you may not really be able to "figure out" if someone was abused or not. There are lots of symptoms that are the same but have different causes. For instance, someone might be prone to angry outbursts, withdrawal, low (or high) sex drive, etc, but these things can be caused by SO many factors. Can you guess if something happened? Sure, but be careful trying to make up your mind if it happened or not, because you may be wrong.

That being said, I am still glad you are here and that you are trying to be understanding. Some books I have read are Betrayed as Boys, Victims No Longer, Above His Shoulders, and Evicting the Perpetrator. I don't know of any specific info about the repeat behavior thing, but again, please don't project that worry onto someone who is innocent (unless you have a clear reason to worry about this...something that has happened already).


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#345207 - 11/14/10 09:49 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: hopeandtry]
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5778
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
JFY:
No intention to attack you. I merely responded to a false myth that is harmful to survivors who think they are likely to offend others because they were abused. Please accept my apologies for criticizing you. That was not my intent. I just wanted to disabuse that myth.

This site is useful for discussing the issues that arise from the csa of males. We are here to support the partners and helpers of those who were abused. We hope this place will be useful for you and others who are here on behalf of the men who were abused.


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#345230 - 11/15/10 12:26 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
I am a survivor and I believed this myth myself about those who are abused go onto abuse. My ex-wife reinforced this myth.

It is a myth that needs to addressed. The myth itself has hurt millions.

Peace,
Donnie

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#345335 - 11/15/10 08:40 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: hopeandtry]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi hope4him,
Please know that we are not worrying or obsessing needlessly. The husband has acted out. He has acknowledged he has a problem and has agreed to go into a faith-based live-in program. Had we understood what was going on with him and where to find help, we would of looked into a live-in program a long time ago. We have observed that he has been unraveling for quite some time, but did not know how to handle it. We have counseled with several trusted friends and a pastor who suggested wise steps for him to take, but he has been too unmotivated to follow through. So, now he must leave the home as it has gotten to the point that he is not helping himself so he must go where he will get more intense help.

Please understand we are not trying to guess what has happened to him in his childhood, if anything. The fact is he comes from a very troubled family and only qualified counselors can help him come to terms with his past if he is ready. If there was abuse he is repeating it. I am glad that only a small percentage repeat. Ty for the book titles.If there is one thing we have learned from this situation it is that intervention sooner is better than waiting out the years.



Edited by jesusfreesya (11/16/10 05:22 AM)

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#345338 - 11/15/10 08:56 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
hopeandtry Offline


Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 476
By "acting out" I assume you mean he has actually abused someone sexually? I think I'm a little confused by what has happened versus what you fear may happen.


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#345370 - 11/16/10 05:56 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: hopeandtry]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
I am sorry I can not be more specific. Right now must concentrate on educating ourselves- I'm sure you remember when you were at that stage.


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#345376 - 11/16/10 06:34 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ken Singer, LCSW]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Ken,
Ty. Nice to meet you and the others I have encountered on the board so far and appreciate being educated re the false myth. Already, this site has been very useful for me in that I read an older post yesterday that answered at least 3 questions I have wondered about for years that I wondered if I would ever find answers to. Although this site is for male survivors of sexual abuse, I can see it answers many relationship issues. I am a "counselor person" having studied for a counseling degree, although I ended up going into a related field. I find it very interesting that with the lack of solidness in many, if not most marriages,that an issue like sexual abuse brings about a level of honesty and communication that most couples may never achieve. I'm a great believer that much good can come out of bad. So, I am happy to of found this site and look forward to what I will learn here. I have always cared very deeply about this subject and although I have a very full life as it is, hope that I can be of help to someone with what I am learning here.



Edited by jesusfreesya (11/16/10 06:36 AM)

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#345378 - 11/16/10 06:47 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Avery46]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi Donnie,
I am sorry that you were once subjected to the myth. It is great that you can educate others now that it is not true.


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#345379 - 11/16/10 06:56 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1988
Loc: durham, north england
86 percent of statistics are made up anyway ;D.

Seriously, welcome to the site Jf.

There is one thing which is confusing me slightly about your story.

This chap has admitted he has a problem, ie, acting out and is attending a live in program.

However, has he admitted to experiencing sa himself? The reason I ask is that's generally the first step.

it's possible that his behaviour is a symptom of something which happened to him earlier, and working on that will only deal with the symptom and not the desease, it's equally possible that his behaviour simply exists for some other reason or no reason at all.

say for instance someone were an alcoholic. they may be using alcohol as a way of coping with some sort of past trauma, such as abuse, ---- or indeed many other things, or they might simply be an alcoholic because they got into a bad cycle of addiction.

The only real person who knows this is the alcoholic themselves, and until they admit they have a problem, ---- either just an alcohol related problem or something else, there's not a lot that can be done. Therapy might be able to help in either case, but really the first move, either in getting rid of the alcohol addiction or deciding to deal with it's route cause, has to be the alcoholics, nobody else can pressure, cajole or persuade them into such a decision, it has to be theirs.

So, if this family member of yours is going on a retreat, that might be a good thing, sinse it sounds like he's planning on at least starting to deal with things.

Btw, as regards the statistic and myth business, I think part of the problem this provokes such a strong reaction is how harmful this believe has been to men in the past.

There are various stories of men on this site who've had some horrible treatment from others after they've disclosed their abuse, and some even worse stories of abusers who use such myths to their advantage.

I myself was not only abused by girls, but on several occasions they accused me! of doing things to them.

As an undergraduate I once had to sit through a so called "introductory" lecture to s/xual ethics, where a very aggressive feminist lecturer began with the words "70 percent of men would rape a woman if they could" and continued on a wrant about how evil men were. she admitted that on some rare, ---- very! rare, occasions men would rape another man (when no woman was available), but she never even considdered the idea that women could be abusers and men victims, ----- in fact she gave barely any time to the idea of men being victims at all, ---- and this was supposed to be a fair introduction to the subject as part of an applied ethics module I was doing.

Perhaps this explains why people on this site are a litle more sensative about male sterriotypes.

I hope you find something useful here.


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#345383 - 11/16/10 07:05 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
Still Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 6419
Loc: 2.5 NATO Nations
JF,

1) You can find a discussion of The Myths on the home page of this sight.

2) I urge you to buy the book "Victims No Longer" by Mike Lew. It will provide you with a heafty helping of the realities you are facing.


BTW: Love your screen-name. My signature line is sometimes "Jesus loves the hell out of me."



Edited by Robbie Brown (11/16/10 07:06 AM)
_________________________
This nation has lost its mind!

The Aftermath Video

The Water Buffalo Song

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#345537 - 11/17/10 12:53 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: dark empathy]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi dark,

If you are confused then you know how we feel. The chap has long since admitted that the problem is his, but as to what the problem is, he has been very elusive. In other words, he knows he has a problem, but claims he can not remember his childhood.

Over time, the story of his family came out, a little by him and much more through an old family friend who paid us a visit one day. It was revealed that the chap was very much rejected by his father while his father and other family members were living immoral, highly dysfunctional lives. SA was not mentioned, but both the chap and the family friend seemed to hide something much darker.

Though we were relieved to get part of the story, we felt there is surely something else we were not told. For years, the chap was fairly chipper, however we noticed he was like 2 different ppl. One day he was chipper, almost giddy, and the next he was gloomy and often angry.

You don't know a person until you know him- with time we saw a very troubled soul emerge. We began to see other character flaws, mood swings and wrong behaviors. It became obvious the chap was in a great deal of denial re "something". This something eventually resulted in his acting-out.

So, years later and after many attempts to help him, this husband and father has agreed to go into a live-in program. No, he has not admitted what his problem is. Either he does not know himself, blanked out what he has been through, or he knows and is covering up what it is.

He has had many chances to come out with it and deal with it. Whereas he "owns" the problem (whatever it is) and has promised everyone who has offered their help that he would work on it, each time he has tried to begin, has acted like he has amnesia. When confronted by his wife as to what effort he has put forth, he has said that he had good intentions to begin, but "something" (another something)has stopped him every time- has said things like he couldn't focus. This is why the last resort has been to get to him to a live-in program.

From what the live-in counselors have told us, men who go into the program because they have reached the end of their ropes (hit bottom) are the ones who usually succeed. There are others who enter the program as a last resort if they don't want to lose their wives and children. A percentage of these men succeed. But the bottom line is, it is what a man puts into the program that is what he will get out of it.

The counselors told us that men have been set free from every kind of problem including csa. We have had our concerns that due to the intense nature of csa, although as I said, we have not even established if there is any csa, just strongly suspect it could be the problem, that possibly more specialized counseling will be needed in addition to a program such as this. But at this time, we know we have to take a very decisive step and this is it.

The counselors say it is a very good sign that he is willing to get help as most men run from help. So, at least we have that going for us. Of course, there are no guarantees, but we feel a peace that we are doing the right thing.

As long as this husband/father wants help, we will stand behind him. It is only if he shows us he is not going to participate in his recovery that we will wash our hands of the situation.

Although we understand that men need to hit bottom in order to change, we believe there are counseling methods to bring things into focus. To do nothing is not helpful and demeans the lives of innocent wives and children. The bottom line is men must choose to either stay stuck or to be set free.

I understand and very much agree with your assessment of how there could be a number of reasons men exhibit wrong behaviors, that they have to hit bottom and what often blocks them. Your account of the "aggressive feminist lecturer" is common in our universities. There are so many wrong messages all around us. But we each have a choice to whom we listen and in how we walk, or walk out of, wrong situations that are perpetuated against us.

Ty for your contribution to this discussion. It helps so much to have supportive ppl around when going through a life crisis.





Edited by jesusfreesya (11/17/10 01:12 PM)

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#345585 - 11/17/10 07:12 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Still]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi Robbie,
Ty for your suggestions. Have viewed your videos and was deeply touched. Glad you like my screen name. It comes from a lyric in a song by one of my favorite singers, Jon Gibson. In fact, his music is about getting set free from the myriad of problems ppl have. Check him out at YouTube and jongibson.com. He once played with Stevie Wonder and another well known singer that escapes my mind right now.

Like your signature, too. Yes, Jesus can get the "hell" out of anyone who will let him- whether that hell was put there from someone else's actions or their own wrong choices! I found this out a long time ago and have lived 100% depression-free and in perfect peace ever since. The Bible calls it "the peace that passes understanding". Not that I don't have my share of unfair situations in life- the one I am dealing with currently is one of the worst ever. But I know what it is to be wrapped in the arms of God.

He protects me in such amazing ways. Like one thing he does is places a huge bubble around me re those who have hurt or betrayed me. If you can picture being enveloped by a huge, beautiful bubble so that when the painful thoughts of the wrong choices of others against you come your way, they just bounce off, that is what it is like. Instead of focusing on the unloving things that others have done to me, it is like the thoughts of the pain it brings can't penetrate the bubble. It is a form of supernatural protection.

Another example would be, you know how things seem dreariest at night when you've had a rotten day? Well I love the verse in the Bible that says, "joy cometh in the morning". Unless someone has experienced this joy, they can not know how amazing it is. Every single day when I wake up in the morning, I am so full of joy and peace that I can't even remember what bad events occurred the day before! This is also the reason that depression is not even in my vocabulary- it rolls off me like water off a duck's back. All of this is real and there are many other ways that God provides peace to those who believe in Him.

I have just practically arrived at this board, but already have heard so much anguish in members' lives over not being able to come to terms with the past or finding out that one's husband suffers from csa, thus the marriage is robbed of communication/intimacy. My own family member's life has been impacted by symptoms like this now.

And I know those affected by csa may all have questioned if there is a God why did He allow this to happen to me- why didn't he stop it?! But I see from reading posts that a few of you have realized that God is not the enemy. He's on your side, will completely heal and free you from the past and make something beautiful out of your lives. If he did it for me, He will do it for anyone-much more free than expensive therapy and much faster too!


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#345600 - 11/17/10 09:15 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
It sounds like a trouble house and extended family and its great professional help is being sought. Famalies unfortunately can "take sides" and for human reasons lack the objectivity to see all the issues taking place. Thankfully a professional will of course explore both sides of the family not assuming the husband or the wife is the sole issue. Reading so many stories here you can't help but see that sometimes the issue is with the husband, sometimes the wife, other times with both.

It is great the husband/father is being steered towards help for whatever issue he may have. No doubt similar care for the wife/mother will insure that any concerns possibly within the other 50% of that partnership is addressed as well.

Here is hoping husband, wife and children all get the professional care they deserve.....

Be well all.

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#345620 - 11/18/10 06:30 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: kb8715]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1988
Loc: durham, north england
Hi Jf.

One piece of advice that I will mention is dealing with sa is A, very hard work and B, not really something you can pick any generic counseler for.

There have been instances where men get very much the wrong response from different therapists, indeed there are stil members of the psychiatric profession who don't believe male Sa actually exists.

I'm not saying that the live in program is a bad idea, just that it may happen that this chap will need to look for a therapist that can be helpful to him, if indeed he is ready to deal with the problem, and if indeed the problem is Sa.

Ultimately, it's something that takes more motivation from within than pushing from without.That's probably why the single most helpful resource I've found myself is in fact this site, and if indeed this chap has experienced sa and is considdering dealing with it, checking here might be a good place to start.


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#345728 - 11/19/10 05:51 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: dark empathy]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
The way we are looking at things is, he has two problems. The first problem is actually worse then the other one. He does not put his trust in God, therefor he is without spiritual guidance for his other problem. To be disconnected from God one has to solve problems with one's intellect and emotions. The much stronger way to solve problems is with one's spirit. It is like having a big flashlight that shines on a matter clearly illuminating what the problem is and how to solve it. Faith-based programs serve to plug men into God for the first time (of course, this is if they are willing). What men (and women, too, of course)don't realize is, if they put God first, He will put them first and bless them with His wisdom, knowledge, courage and boldness to solve any problem they may have.

Now the counselors at faith-based programs specialize in helping men make this most essential connection. Therefor, like I said, such men will have One of great faithfulness to come alongside them and help them solve their csa. Instead of being clueless where to begin, afraid, nervous etc, men will now have the forces of Heaven behind them. Put all this together and they will now become competent to solve their own problem. Not that they do it alone, but they will be confidant and begin to know where to look for further help. Heal the spirit and the other scars in the recesses of the mind will be healed as well.

The counselors in faith-based programs such as the one we are looking at have all been deeply involved in severe sexual brokenness themselves, while maybe not csa. They have each been through the program and have each gotten degrees in Christian counseling as well as state certification. This makes them uniquely qualified to understand many issues. I'm sure there is not a problem they haven't seen. We feel chances are, and we plan to inquire further, there is at least one counselor on staff who is acquainted with this issue, and if not, know he will pray for guidance to get our chap to the right counselor in time. Like I said though, if this man allows his spirit to be healed, he will be able to participate fully in the process of finding his own answers, including the counselor/s and other sources of help he will require. Though there is a measure of help to be found in a secular therapist, secular therapists do not understand the spiritual. Finding a Christian therapist who specializes in csa would be the preferred way to go. But God is not limited to any one particular counselor or therapist. He will use many sources to reach men who put Him first. In fact, He is the greatest therapist of all! And as I stated in a previous post, He has many other amazing gifts to give men to empower them to chisel away at what the true enemy of their souls meant for their destruction so that in the end they come out victorious, Overcomers!

That being said, I am interested to hear anything one can tell me about their experiences with therapists who specialize in csa. Where did you locate him/her, how often do you go, what is the price tag? It seems the reason men don't get help sooner, if ever, is they don't know where to find it or can't afford it. And most importantly, how effective are the results? Even in the faith-based programs, as I said, men only get out of it what they put into it and their recoveries are incomplete if the programs don't teach the full overcoming power of God. Many churches are like that, too. That is why one must not settle for less. It takes humbling oneself, surrendering fully and claiming God's best to get routed to where the true help is. By doing this, one will get every last answer and be in peace until he gets there. It is a beautiful process..


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#345737 - 11/19/10 08:13 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
Immorality is not saved for the unbelieving
Nor is the falling from grace for the wicked
It is a shared commonality in all humanity
Not even in Jesus are we spared this reality

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#345752 - 11/19/10 10:43 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
If I understand your comment, yes, that is correct. The Bible teaches that the entire human race is born with a sin nature due to the disobedience of the first man and woman. But God in His great goodness sent a Redeemer and anyone who says yes to this mighty Saviour, Jesus Christ, is saved by grace. Once one is saved it does not mean he will never sin again (old habits die hard), but should he sin while he is learning to live a holy life, he has an Advocate (attorney) who pleads his case day and night before the Father, and with his genuine repentance the sin is canceled- it is tossed as far as the East is from the West! Living this holy life is a process, line upon line precept upon precept of applying God's Word, until the race is won. It takes a lifetime, but the sinner who is saved by grace will gradually gain victory over the areas of his life, while still in this life, that had him bound. As the answers come in one by one at different points in the race, he will notice that he has become victorious over the strongholds that had beset him in that he no longer falls for the wrong messages. Many men start the race, but not all finish it. Who is it that makes it across the finish line? It is the one who keeps going and never looks back. In other words, the one who "chooses" to finish, for we were not created as puppets- we were created with free will, thus nothing ever done to us can hold us back! God Almighty will save us to the end and then we will enter into our just reward- a world where the evils we have known in this life will exist no more. You might say this life is the dress rehearsal for the next. Fairy tale or truth- each one must decide.


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#345754 - 11/19/10 10:58 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
No I'm afraid you did not understand my comment. :-(

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#345758 - 11/19/10 11:35 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Jesusfreesya,

I've read this thread several times and while I appreciate your attempts to learn about sexual abuse and acting out to help this man, I can't help but feel you are talking in code phrases and not saying what you really mean and what you really think.

Your use of "sexual brokenness" to describe this man's plight, your focus on sexual abuse as a potential trigger for "acting out", probably in some sexual way, discussing his family life as "immoral", and your jumping to "God is the answer" and the conclusion of "faith based" live-in programs as the ultimate solution build a very strong picture in my mind.

"Sexual brokenness" is the language that religious ex-gay ministries use to talk about same-sex attraction of any kind, and dark but unspecified references to "immorality" seem to make the upbringing of this man culpable in his situation without explaining how.

This makes me think this man is having some kind of sexual contact with other men, that you suspect he might secretly be gay, and that the "faith-based" programs you are talking about are actually ex-gay programs that will hopefully affirm this man is straight and stop him from having sex with men. I think there is a fear in you that this man may be gay and you are falling into the false narrative put forth by some religious organizations that people who are gay and made so by sexual abuse.

In your communication here so far your disgust and disapproval of this situation comes across very strongly. The judgmental language you use is unloving and unsupportive of this man's situation, whatever it may be.

This man may be gay, he may be straight, he may have been sexually abused, and he may not. Straight men and boys are sexually abused, by both men and women, and are still straight. Gay men and boys are sexually abused by men and women, and they are still gay.

Whatever your beliefs, they are immaterial in this situation. Please listen to this man's pain and his needs and not your own. Please don't push this man into an ex-gay ministry which all reputable psychological organizations state can be deeply harmful to the mental health of those who attend them, and which are wholly ineffective at changing sexual orientation.

Good luck in your efforts to help this man in his situation.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#345776 - 11/19/10 02:22 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Well earlybird, I hope you will give me more than just a frown. I did my best to reply your post for what I thought you were saying. Hope you will stay in the thread and communicate, but respect your choice either way you go.


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#345780 - 11/19/10 03:13 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
JFY,

Sorry my reply was brief. I need to tread lightly because we are all here with our own needs and agendas and sometimes these needs and agendas can trip up others. I mean you no harm and hope that we can learn from “each” other. I come to F&F forum to learn, understand and for the “shared” insight. If I may be a little blunt it feels to me as if you are here to only advise and “save” us, as you are trying to do with your friend’s husband. This concerns me. I wish you well on your journey here and if you want to talk more about this PM may be the best or here if you feel more comfortable. EB

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#345782 - 11/19/10 03:36 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi efm,
Wow, at the same time that I replied to your post in the other thread, you replied to my post in this one. I gave you a kind complement and you gave me a scathing rebuke. But that's ok. I can see that you gave me your heartfelt opinion of my posts and I don't mind that at all. I always like to hear what someone honestly thinks. I will reply to your concerns fully first chance I get, probably tomorrow, but am out of time for today.


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#345786 - 11/19/10 04:31 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
earlybird,
Ty. I have started coming to this board for the same reason you do and I would love to be able to learn from you, too. I welcome your honest thoughts that you have expressed here. I believe in being blunt, too. I can not save anyone, but as I have shared, I know One who can and I try to make it very clear that this is what has turned my life around (not a csa survivor, but the enemy of my soul put a doozy of a trap in my life, too)and is a choice. And I am sorry if you see me as an advisor trying to save the man I am trying to help and men here. I simply witness what I have experienced, because I know it has set countless ppl free no matter what the problem. Since the goal here is healing and recovery, I do not keep to myself what I know works. I am comfortable communicating right here, so look forward to hearing from you again.


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#345795 - 11/19/10 05:26 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
JFY,
I appreciate the invite to continue the conversation. It is good that you have a faith that has helped you in your life’s journey. It is also a good and healthy relationship when one feels free to share what has worked for them with others. But in the process of that sharing I believe one needs to also look around at their surroundings. Who is listening in? What are the injuries of the person in which they are conversing? Will my message be heard with an open heart when I use terms like immoral easily and so loosely. Possibly leaving others with the sounds of someone who does not suffer from this same affliction? (My poem’s meaning) I’m not trying to be cruel or offensive only suggesting that you look at us as equals, men who in our “own” way need to find healing without it being suggested that there is only “one way” and a particular group has discovered it therefore invalidating all others and their recovery. I mean this when I say, I’m glad you have found your “….100% depression-free and in perfect peace…” EB

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

Top
#345808 - 11/19/10 08:14 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
I am a victim of clergy abuse. My faith saved me. Each night I pray that those here in pain let God help them. I have complete respect for everyone elses right to not share my faith.

That said I find this posting very disturbing. With all due respect I think the family being discussed and this man who may or may not be an abuse victim seem destined to fail. It is not the time for unqualified outsiders to experiment or have undue influence.

I am feeling triggered because my wifes recovery from CSA was undermined and delayed by people outside my household who interfered.

Luckily we met our Priest for advice. He brilliantly counseled we should love those who offered help but were unqualified and had their own agendas. He then added that I should do everything in my power to be sure they were loved from a very very far distance. He was so right and thank God we have made so much progress.

Good advice perhaps for this couple as well. God is so good.



Edited by kb8715 (11/19/10 10:15 PM)
_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#345838 - 11/20/10 09:13 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi efm,
To cont. my reply to you, first you say you think I am talking in code words and not saying what I really mean and think. I can assure you that I am not doing what you think I am doing. With every belief system, profession and lifestyle, words are used that may not be familiar to outsiders. A good example of this is, when I came to this board I was lost at first with the code words like csa, sa, triggers etc. I know what the sa words are now and can picture what triggers are although I am sure there are many I don't recognize yet.

There is lots more I have to learn about this whole subject of csa which I hope to learn here. But I don't take offense to the code words here. I know it is just the language of this group of ppl. Just as ppl from all walks of life have a language, so do I. That's all it is, nothing more. Before I spoke the language I do now, the language of a born again believer, it was foreign to me, too. I had to ask what the words meant. I learned because I wanted the peace I saw in those who spoke it and lived it.

When I used the term "sexual brokenness", I was not referring to the man I am trying to help, although he has a form of sexual brokenness of his own. I was referring to counselors in the faith-based live-in program, that they have each had sexual addictions they have had to overcome. In a different post I had asked if there is a link between someone who has experienced csa and acting out as an adult. In another post I shared that this man's family of origin is into many immoral behaviors. When a child grows up seeing this there is confusion and insecurity which very well could influence him to make wrong choices of his own as he grows into adulthood. I said all of this, but not in the way or for the purpose as you took it to mean. I did say that faith-based programs are the way we choose to go, because as you said, we believe God is the answer.

The term sexual brokenness is by no means limited to ex-gay ministries. It is not solely directed only to those who are gay. It refers to any kind of sexual immorality. In writing about our family member's culpability, I am trying to be as discreet as possible, but if I was to go into more detail about why we are alarmed at his behavior you would totally understand and be right there with us.

Your thought that he might be gay and that the faith-based program we are looking at is specifically geared to deprogramming gay men is totally wrong. The program deals with delivering men from any kind of sin/addiction that controls men's lives thus hindering their relationship with God and destroying their relationship with their families.

You say, "In your communication here so far your disgust and disapproval of this situation comes across very strongly. The judgmental language you use is unloving and unsupportive of this man's situation, whatever it may be." Again, you are looking through the filter of your own thoughts. Do you feel unloved and judged by ppl? Are you projecting that onto what I have said?

You don't know what this man's specific issues are, but our family has lived with the fallout from his behaviors for years now. He, himself, acknowledges that the problem is his and is ready to get help. In no way am I judgmental or unloving of this man. I am relieved, as is our entire family, that he is finally going to get the counseling he needs.

We have spent hours of our time researching where he can get appropriate help, because although he acknowledges his problem, he is childlike in his ability to secure the needed info for himself. He says he is confused in his mind and has extreme difficulty focusing on the task. This is a husband and a father yet he is helpless acting when it comes to taking responsibility for deep issues he has.

We don't want to see this marriage and home break up. When young children constantly ask, "What's wrong with daddy?", that says it all. We are standing behind him to help him get all the help he needs. For you to say it sounds like we are against him and shoving him in the wrong direction, where do you come up with that? No, he has a loving family that fully supports him, but we are not in denial that he has significant problems.

As I said previously, we would of assisted him in getting help long ago if we had understood what he is suppressing. We still don't even know what it is -just see the many behavioral symptoms that have come out gradually over a period of years that have been destroying his marriage and his children's lives. Once it became apparent that something very serious was going on, we were like anyone else who is unfamiliar with counseling choices and have had many difficult days searching for help.

It seems the only nice thing you said in your whole post is you wish us luck in our efforts to help this man. It would help first and foremost to be believed. Have perpetrators come to this board and trolled members here? Because you and a few of the other members seem very on guard and are making a lot of accusations that are not true.

I wish you could see into my heart as then you would know the kind of person I am which is far different then you described in your post. I genuinely love and care about this husband/father and am not interfering in his life. He has asked for our family's support.

And I genuinely care about the issue of csa. I would ask you and the others to try to be more sensitive to newcomers and realize we are struggling for help and answers just like you are. I don't want to resort to just lurking, because I know I have a contribution to make to the restoration of lives, but if more understanding and respect is not shown here I will have to accept that I am not welcome and drop out of the discussions. I don't want to do that. Please don't turn ppl away who truly care.

And you or others might not understand or agree with my faith, but I am not here to push it, only to share it as I don't think, I know, that it can set anyone free. If you or anyone else can tell me how their faith, philosophy or lifestyle has set them free, I would be glad to listen. BTW, I have absolutely no association with any extremeist groups nor am I associated with any religious denomination.


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#345889 - 11/21/10 01:46 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Thanks for your kind words in the other thread, it was appreciated.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
To cont. my reply to you, first you say you think I am talking in code words and not saying what I really mean and think. I can assure you that I am not doing what you think I am doing. With every belief system, profession and lifestyle, words are used that may not be familiar to outsiders. A good example of this is, when I came to this board I was lost at first with the code words like csa, sa, triggers etc. I know what the sa words are now and can picture what triggers are although I am sure there are many I don't recognize yet.

I acknowledge that every domain has it's own language and shorthand, but the words you are using are very familiar to me, as are the contexts in which they are used. I'm happy to take your contention that you are not doing what I think you are doing at face value, but since I really don't know what you're doing, it doesn't seem helpful.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
There is lots more I have to learn about this whole subject of csa which I hope to learn here. But I don't take offense to the code words here. I know it is just the language of this group of ppl. Just as ppl from all walks of life have a language, so do I. That's all it is, nothing more. Before I spoke the language I do now, the language of a born again believer, it was foreign to me, too. I had to ask what the words meant. I learned because I wanted the peace I saw in those who spoke it and lived it.

I'm glad to hear that you have a willingness to learn, as I do. You seem to be confusing the use of jargon with the use of code words and phrases. Jargon attempts to pack a lot of meaning into a short term or acronym with the intent of communicating a lot of information to a single purpose.

Code words and phrases are used to avoid saying openly what people really mean. They are used to communicate two or more different messages to different groups of people, or to communicate two very different ideas to the same person depending on how they interpret it. At it's most basic, a code word or phrase is used to convey a pre-defined message that differs from its own literal meaning. In many cases it relies on activating a pre-existing bias or belief. Here is an example:

Quote:
...the Republican Party can't get away with calling Obama a criminal or a welfare cheat, [so] they're using new terms to get the point across--he's Black, he's urban, and he's out of step with the "rest of us." And the us, of course, are "hard-working white Americans," as Hillary Clinton put it toward the end of her failed bid to win the Democratic presidential nomination.

When someone talks about a "family oriented workplace", we know that they are saying gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people are not welcome to work there, that they don't form families, and that there is a judgement which continues to demean and marginalize them by defining them as "other" and "not one of us". With terms defined and examples shared, let's move on to this specific example.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
When I used the term "sexual brokenness", I was not referring to the man I am trying to help, although he has a form of sexual brokenness of his own. I was referring to counselors in the faith-based live-in program, that they have each had sexual addictions they have had to overcome.

Thanks for the clarification, however changing whom a code phrase is being used to refer to doesn't stop it being a code phrase. The vagueness in your communication and the use of code words and phrases that do have these other contexts is getting in the way of clear communication. I suggest you stop using them and say what you really mean in language that anyone might understand, not just the language of a specific social, religious, ethnic, or other group.

If that means saying "he's having sex with prostitutes" or "compulsively masturbating to gay porn" or "taking drugs and engaging in unsafe sex" then just simply say so. We understand the plain truths and uncomfortable realities of living with and recovering from Sexual Abuse much better than vagaries like "sexual brokenness" and "immorality".

That said, religious healing ministries have definitions of "sexual brokenness" that, while certainly inclusive of all sexual contact outside of marriage between a man and a woman, very clearly orders their priorities on dealing with homosexuality and "sexual perversion". Said another way, "Sexual Brokenness" could be considered the inclusive foreground idea, while really meaning "homosexuality" and "perversion". Here's one example:

Quote:
Sexual brokenness can best be defined as any form of sex other than between a man and woman within the bounds of marriage. We believe that sex within marriage should be held sacred for bringing bonding, intimacy, pleasure procreation, and building oneness between the man and woman. Sexual brokenness can be male homosexuality, lesbianism, and sex between a man and woman outside of marriage.

My reading of this is that all gays and lesbians are judged and deemed "sexually broken" as are any straight people who engage in pre-marital sex. That's a very wide net to cast under "sexual brokenness". Are these ministries really more focused on addressing the problem that straight people are having sex outside of marriage? While I think a call down of these facilities and an audit of the types of cases they take would show a disproportionate per capita focus on same-sex attraction issues vs. straight issues, I'm happy to stipulate that "sexual brokenness" does include issues other than same-sex attraction so we can move on.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
In a different post I had asked if there is a link between someone who has experienced csa and acting out as an adult. In another post I shared that this man's family of origin is into many immoral behaviors. When a child grows up seeing this there is confusion and insecurity which very well could influence him to make wrong choices of his own as he grows into adulthood. I said all of this, but not in the way or for the purpose as you took it to mean. I did say that faith-based programs are the way we choose to go, because as you said, we believe God is the answer.

I'm really interested in hearing what you did mean as it still isn't clear to me. Once again, the section in bold is vague and ominous and we have no idea what it actually means. What did the child see that was "immoral" and what is the outcome that you fear he might now be more prone to? There are myths about survivors that we can debunk authoritatively if we know what you are referring to.

It really all depends on the program that is being considered for this survivor and how well and directly it addresses his needs, versus the interpretation of his needs that other well-meaning people around him might impose. Since you haven't told us what this man is experiencing in enough detail to be helpful, it's hard for other survivors to chime in with their related experiences. If you point us to the programs being considered we could the tell you how well it addresses the issues he's facing, and we may even have an alumnus of the program in our membership.

Please ensure that the people running and staffing the faith-based programs you are considering are properly qualified psychologists, clinicians, and counselors in good standing with their professional associations. The majority of faith-based programs I have reviewed were staffed by ministers and pastors with no professional qualifications in the mental health field, and no specialized training in the psychology and challenges of male sexual abuse survivors.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
The term sexual brokenness is by no means limited to ex-gay ministries. It is not solely directed only to those who are gay. It refers to any kind of sexual immorality. In writing about our family member's culpability, I am trying to be as discreet as possible, but if I was to go into more detail about why we are alarmed at his behavior you would totally understand and be right there with us.

We dealt with "sexual brokenness" above, but it's worth pointing out your judgement here of gays as immoral. In your premise, there is nothing a gay or lesbian person can do to be considered moral. While I find this personally demeaning and offensive, what concerns me most are the implications for you family member. That you consider him culpable, meriting condemnation or blame, says a great deal. Blaming survivors for acting out, and by extension for their abuse, can be an incredibly damaging thing to do. You've intimated that this man is a survivor, please treat him with compassion, care, and no judgement while he gets stabilized so he can begin work on his recovery.

I don't understand why discretion is a concern on this anonymous message board where you are posting under a pseudonym. No one knows who you are, and we survivors are disclosing the most personal and painful details of our lives and recoveries here. Please consider matching the level of integrity and honesty you see here in your own disclosures and interactions.

It's not unheard of for someone to be more concerned about discretion because of their own potential shame and embarrassment, and preventing that person from taking the actions to get their family member the help he needs.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
Your thought that he might be gay and that the faith-based program we are looking at is specifically geared to deprogramming gay men is totally wrong. The program deals with delivering men from any kind of sin/addiction that controls men's lives thus hindering their relationship with God and destroying their relationship with their families.

I'm very glad to hear it. What program are we talking about?

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
You say, "In your communication here so far your disgust and disapproval of this situation comes across very strongly. The judgmental language you use is unloving and unsupportive of this man's situation, whatever it may be." Again, you are looking through the filter of your own thoughts. Do you feel unloved and judged by ppl? Are you projecting that onto what I have said?

This is not a rebuttal of my statement, it's simply an attempt to make the situation my fault by suggesting that there is something wrong with me. At this point I have to question the level of self-awareness you are bringing to this discussion.

It's your judgment of your survivor relative, of me, and of many hundreds of men here at MaleSurvivor battling with their recoveries that is prompting me to engage with you in the most open and respectful way I can. You've judged many of us in your posts in just the short time you've been here. So far you've casually called me immoral, exhibited homophobia, and suggested that there is something wrong with me to avoid examining your own language and behavior.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
You don't know what this man's specific issues are, but our family has lived with the fallout from his behaviors for years now. He, himself, acknowledges that the problem is his and is ready to get help. In no way am I judgmental or unloving of this man. I am relieved, as is our entire family, that he is finally going to get the counseling he needs.

You are quite correct, I don't know this man's issues because you have been too reticent or ashamed to share them. That fact has not been our choice, it's been yours. We must all take responsibility for our actions, and we must all seek help when it is needed. The fact remains that the language you have used to talk about this man's situation is not compassionate, instead it has been judging, shaming and blaming. Trust me, if there is something that survivors of sexual abuse know how to recognize, it's judgement, shame, and blame.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
We have spent hours of our time researching where he can get appropriate help, because although he acknowledges his problem, he is childlike in his ability to secure the needed info for himself. He says he is confused in his mind and has extreme difficulty focusing on the task. This is a husband and a father yet he is helpless acting when it comes to taking responsibility for deep issues he has.

I applaud the effort you've taken to find where this man can get the help he needs. At the same time, do you even hear what you are saying about this man? You tell us he's child-like and helpless, and then you blame him for not being able to "take responsibility" for his issues.

As a boy, this man was in the equivalent of a brutal, flesh-tearing, bone-breaking car crash where he was more profoundly injured than you can possibly understand. He received no medical attention at the time, and your "compassionate" response isn't to finally get him the care he needs, but to blame him for limping.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
We don't want to see this marriage and home break up. When young children constantly ask, "What's wrong with daddy?", that says it all. We are standing behind him to help him get all the help he needs. For you to say it sounds like we are against him and shoving him in the wrong direction, where do you come up with that? No, he has a loving family that fully supports him, but we are not in denial that he has significant problems.

I hope we can both agree that the integrity of our families, even the immoral ones like mine, is very important. It's gratifying to know that he has a family that will do everything that is required to "get all the help he needs". My hope is that this includes choosing a program with qualified and licensed professionals, expertise with male survivors, and a proven track record of success.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
It seems the only nice thing you said in your whole post is you wish us luck in our efforts to help this man. It would help first and foremost to be believed. Have perpetrators come to this board and trolled members here? Because you and a few of the other members seem very on guard and are making a lot of accusations that are not true.

That isn't unknown, but that isn't the most common thing we've experienced. That is having problems getting our families to believe what happened to us, and then to let us, or help us, get the help we need. I've made no accusations, just observations based on what you've said (and haven't said) so far. I don't think I'm alone in these observations and impressions and I'm very open to hearing a more complete story.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
I wish you could see into my heart as then you would know the kind of person I am which is far different then you described in your post. I genuinely love and care about this husband/father and am not interfering in his life. He has asked for our family's support.

You have already shown us your heart in your postings so far and I find it judging of your family member and lacking in understanding and empathy for his suffering. I will be happy to be proven wrong,

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
And I genuinely care about the issue of csa. I would ask you and the others to try to be more sensitive to newcomers and realize we are struggling for help and answers just like you are. I don't want to resort to just lurking, because I know I have a contribution to make to the restoration of lives, but if more understanding and respect is not shown here I will have to accept that I am not welcome and drop out of the discussions. I don't want to do that. Please don't turn ppl away who truly care.

It may be that you have a contribution to make that can help some survivors, but I cannot leave myself open to your beliefs and way of expressing yourself.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
And you or others might not understand or agree with my faith, but I am not here to push it, only to share it as I don't think, I know, that it can set anyone free. If you or anyone else can tell me how their faith, philosophy or lifestyle has set them free, I would be glad to listen. BTW, I have absolutely no association with any extremeist groups nor am I associated with any religious denomination.

I am not hostile to the idea of the divine, only to those who wear it's benediction in arrogance and conviction of their own righteousness, using the divine as license to pass judgement on others.

I have been a staunch supporter for the involvement of women on this site and I appreciate the balance and perspective that their presence brings. Many men find the presence of women here deeply uncomfortable and difficult. I have found in so many women here who are family and friends of survivors a kind of grace that is uncommon and very welcome. I hope very much that someday I shall see that grace in you.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#345912 - 11/21/10 05:13 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
JFY,

I want to tell you a story about when I first came to MaleSurvivor. I was so angry with “The Church” and “God”. I didn’t realize how deep this anger was and thought I had it under control till I read some strong messaging from some of the Christian men on this site suggesting they had the answers. What I was hearing from them and now you is there is easy fix to the injuries caused by others for those of us who do not believe if we would just lay ourselves down at the feet of the one and only true Healer.

I strongly took offense, which I had ever right, and fought back. It was in the fighting back that I went awry. I allowed my own prejudices and mind set to cloud my thinking. I was hurtful in some of my interactions with my “survivor” brothers. There were a few men who took me on swinging back with full force and I, like you have said, felt unwelcomed and pushed aside. The reality was I was using unwelcoming, non-inclusive judgmental wording much like I see in your easy use of “immoral” and “brokenness”. In doing so I pushed many kind and thoughtful men away from me, then blamed them for not being by my side.

Fortunately for me, there were a couple of Christian men who on the PM side of things took me under their wing and supported my hurt, caused by those in the church. One man in particular allowed me to rant a little (okay a lot) till I was tired and now open to his show of respect and love towards me - a nonbeliever. I’ve not come one inch closer to believing in a divine but I truly regret my earlier “reaction” to a “perceived” threat. Some of forgiven me some have not. I’ve earned both of these “reactions” to the “perceived” threat I brought to MS.

What I’m trying to say is that we each come with our own set of values, moral to some immoral to others. But those judgments need to be laid aside the moment we type in our password and come onto this board. We are not here to bring salvation and “morality”. What I learned from my brothers who pushed back against my bitterness was it was far more important for me to treat everyone morally. (Which I'll fail at and when I do I need the push back of my brothers and sisters here on MS) Earlybird

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#346172 - 11/24/10 04:36 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
efm, earlybird and others,

It has been brought to my attention that the topic of our discussion here is a big trigger for some csa survivors ( clergy abuse or God used wrongly in yet other ways to entrap), so I would like to switch over to the spiritual forum to finish our discussion. If anyone knows how to switch this whole thread over there please let me know. Otherwise I guess I could copy and paste the posts left to reply to individually. It has been nice getting to know you and I very much respect how you have worked on your recoveries - it shows. In a different, but similar way, my life is dedicated to helping others recover and heal fully so instead of wasting their lives, they can make a difference in someone else's life. I want to wish you a peace-filled Thanksgiving. Talk to you again when the thread revives smile


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#346185 - 11/24/10 07:36 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
JFY,

I don't believe, I could be wrong, that you (As a F&F) can post on the spiritual forum. If I'm wrong I apologize up front. As I suggested in an earlier post you may PM me anytime. Not to convert but to learn and understand each other better. Earlybird



Edited by earlybird (11/24/10 07:37 PM)
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

Top
#346321 - 11/26/10 10:13 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
I have contacted a mod to see which boards are open to f&f and he said if there is not a direct de>


Edited by jesusfreesya (11/26/10 10:15 PM)

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#346834 - 12/02/10 07:55 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
I have gotten my answer from admin. that it is permissible for me, as an f&f, to post at the spiritual board, and that the spiritual board is the appropriate place for threads that contain content of a spiritual nature. So, I will leave this thread here and begin a new thread over there.

earlybird- I have decided to accept your invitation to PM you. I want everyone who participated in this thread to know that I very much appreciated, and was impressed by your very insightful, instructive comments. I had planned to reply to some of you, but now that things are changed, invite you to contact me by PM if you wish to become better acquainted and continue our discussion from where we left off. Especially, Ever-fixed Mark- I take very seriously what you posted and would like to respond to you fully if you would care to get in touch by PM.


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#346840 - 12/02/10 08:46 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA

Though extremely surprised, I’m glad and dismayed that you are able to post on the spiritual thread. I’m sorry for giving you misinformation. It was not an attempt on my part to block you; I simply was under a wrong impression. I’ll take you up on the PM invite. I most likely won’t be responding to your thread on the spiritual forum. This is a forum that is better off without my involvement and I’m better off not being there. I’ll look forward to our PM’s. Earlybird

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#346921 - 12/02/10 07:04 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
JFY,

I appreciate the invitation to engage privately, but I would much rather continue our discussion where it began - in public.

My response to this thread has been about how you appear to be judging your family member and my concern that decisions on what kind of treatment and counseling he might receive are not being clearly driven by his needs.

I see no need to move that component of this discussion into a "spiritual forum" which isn't relevant, and I find the desire to turn this entire thread into an issue about religious faith completely misses the point.

What. About. The. Survivor?

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#347445 - 12/08/10 08:00 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
efm,
As I said, it was my choice to cont. this thread publicly and to fully reply to your previous, longish post, but I have been directed not to do so on the f&f forum. At the spiritual forum, I am permitted to discuss topics from a spiritual point of view, while even there, I have been directed that my participation must be minimal considering that female posters are also considered triggers on this site by some. The other option given to me is to invite those who want to discuss this thread further to do so in PM., but there as well, only to express my spiritual approach to life minimally and with the express consent of those who choose this option.

I do plan to cont. at the f&f forum, but will not share my spiritual approach to sa here in the future. My thread here will be left as a courtesy this time. Anyone who reads it can see how I approach this issue and if they want to contact me by PM, that is up to them. Obviously, you and I have different belief systems and approach therapy/counseling differently. It is your perception that I am judgmental since I do not favor the same approach as you. Since you have elected not to meet me in PM to resolve our differences as two individuals with very different mindsets, showing respect, but agreeing to disagree, I accept your choice.

For the purposes of the f&f forum, it saddens me that I can not lend my spiritual experience which has completely healed my life and that of countless others for a myriad of issues including sa, but I am a guest here and must abide by the rules. So, you can be assured that I will no longer get on a spiritual track. That prohibits me from replying to your post in the truth of who I am as a person, but I will certainly cont. to educate myself on sa. by participating in threads and starting new threads as that is why I came here.

jesusfreesya


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#348166 - 12/15/10 01:29 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
risingagain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 595
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
I think the best two things you can do for someone who is suffering from the effects of childhood abuse:

1- Love them unconditionally
2- Respect their process
3- Be clear with your personal boundaries - what is unacceptable to you

If they do not remember their past, or choose not to tell you, there is probably a good reason for it. I speak as a man who was sexually abused by both parents, and had no memory of it until recently. Rather than blame myself, I now understand that I simply did not have the support and resources to deal with it until this point in my life.

Please use caution and utmost care and respect for this person in your family. Regardless of the pain and acting out he may be causing your family, please try to remember that true healing can only happen in an atmosphere of love and accceptance.

It sounds like you have some reasons to find out more about this person's past. I would caution the use of too much 'detective work' from the outside. I don't think it's helpful for the person if other people go digging around trying to uncover things in their past. A good therapist would not do this, because it does not respect the person's process.

I am working with a therapist who is using the Hakomi method of therapy. I find her approach makes me feel very safe, and so I am able to remember and open up on my own. It is because she has no agenda.

All the best for you and your family,
Rising Again


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#352771 - 02/04/11 07:34 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: risingagain]
mike13 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/02/11
Posts: 419
Loc: California USA
Hi JFY I am new to MS my story is very ugly and I skimmed over the spiritual aspects of my story. As the attack started I uttered the prayer most people would say. Lord deliver me from this evil. I feel bad, 35years later for putting God on the spot. I fought against God and strugled because I mistakenly thought he didn't love me because he didn't deliver me. Looking back at the out of body experience, I was ready to die and was at peace with it. Asking for a few minutes more time to protect my mom from the pain my death would have caused her, and it bought me more life everythough I didn't see it that way until a few weeks ago. I feel like that story about the footprints in the sand. I can truly say that he carried me through my ugliest hour. Thanks for giving me a place to publicly express this. I think it is this overiding faith in God that has keep me from hurting others. I know this is a tough road but I am finally begining to see the glorious light. May God bless you this day and always Mike


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