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#345808 - 11/19/10 08:14 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
I am a victim of clergy abuse. My faith saved me. Each night I pray that those here in pain let God help them. I have complete respect for everyone elses right to not share my faith.

That said I find this posting very disturbing. With all due respect I think the family being discussed and this man who may or may not be an abuse victim seem destined to fail. It is not the time for unqualified outsiders to experiment or have undue influence.

I am feeling triggered because my wifes recovery from CSA was undermined and delayed by people outside my household who interfered.

Luckily we met our Priest for advice. He brilliantly counseled we should love those who offered help but were unqualified and had their own agendas. He then added that I should do everything in my power to be sure they were loved from a very very far distance. He was so right and thank God we have made so much progress.

Good advice perhaps for this couple as well. God is so good.



Edited by kb8715 (11/19/10 10:15 PM)
_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#345838 - 11/20/10 09:13 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
Hi efm,
To cont. my reply to you, first you say you think I am talking in code words and not saying what I really mean and think. I can assure you that I am not doing what you think I am doing. With every belief system, profession and lifestyle, words are used that may not be familiar to outsiders. A good example of this is, when I came to this board I was lost at first with the code words like csa, sa, triggers etc. I know what the sa words are now and can picture what triggers are although I am sure there are many I don't recognize yet.

There is lots more I have to learn about this whole subject of csa which I hope to learn here. But I don't take offense to the code words here. I know it is just the language of this group of ppl. Just as ppl from all walks of life have a language, so do I. That's all it is, nothing more. Before I spoke the language I do now, the language of a born again believer, it was foreign to me, too. I had to ask what the words meant. I learned because I wanted the peace I saw in those who spoke it and lived it.

When I used the term "sexual brokenness", I was not referring to the man I am trying to help, although he has a form of sexual brokenness of his own. I was referring to counselors in the faith-based live-in program, that they have each had sexual addictions they have had to overcome. In a different post I had asked if there is a link between someone who has experienced csa and acting out as an adult. In another post I shared that this man's family of origin is into many immoral behaviors. When a child grows up seeing this there is confusion and insecurity which very well could influence him to make wrong choices of his own as he grows into adulthood. I said all of this, but not in the way or for the purpose as you took it to mean. I did say that faith-based programs are the way we choose to go, because as you said, we believe God is the answer.

The term sexual brokenness is by no means limited to ex-gay ministries. It is not solely directed only to those who are gay. It refers to any kind of sexual immorality. In writing about our family member's culpability, I am trying to be as discreet as possible, but if I was to go into more detail about why we are alarmed at his behavior you would totally understand and be right there with us.

Your thought that he might be gay and that the faith-based program we are looking at is specifically geared to deprogramming gay men is totally wrong. The program deals with delivering men from any kind of sin/addiction that controls men's lives thus hindering their relationship with God and destroying their relationship with their families.

You say, "In your communication here so far your disgust and disapproval of this situation comes across very strongly. The judgmental language you use is unloving and unsupportive of this man's situation, whatever it may be." Again, you are looking through the filter of your own thoughts. Do you feel unloved and judged by ppl? Are you projecting that onto what I have said?

You don't know what this man's specific issues are, but our family has lived with the fallout from his behaviors for years now. He, himself, acknowledges that the problem is his and is ready to get help. In no way am I judgmental or unloving of this man. I am relieved, as is our entire family, that he is finally going to get the counseling he needs.

We have spent hours of our time researching where he can get appropriate help, because although he acknowledges his problem, he is childlike in his ability to secure the needed info for himself. He says he is confused in his mind and has extreme difficulty focusing on the task. This is a husband and a father yet he is helpless acting when it comes to taking responsibility for deep issues he has.

We don't want to see this marriage and home break up. When young children constantly ask, "What's wrong with daddy?", that says it all. We are standing behind him to help him get all the help he needs. For you to say it sounds like we are against him and shoving him in the wrong direction, where do you come up with that? No, he has a loving family that fully supports him, but we are not in denial that he has significant problems.

As I said previously, we would of assisted him in getting help long ago if we had understood what he is suppressing. We still don't even know what it is -just see the many behavioral symptoms that have come out gradually over a period of years that have been destroying his marriage and his children's lives. Once it became apparent that something very serious was going on, we were like anyone else who is unfamiliar with counseling choices and have had many difficult days searching for help.

It seems the only nice thing you said in your whole post is you wish us luck in our efforts to help this man. It would help first and foremost to be believed. Have perpetrators come to this board and trolled members here? Because you and a few of the other members seem very on guard and are making a lot of accusations that are not true.

I wish you could see into my heart as then you would know the kind of person I am which is far different then you described in your post. I genuinely love and care about this husband/father and am not interfering in his life. He has asked for our family's support.

And I genuinely care about the issue of csa. I would ask you and the others to try to be more sensitive to newcomers and realize we are struggling for help and answers just like you are. I don't want to resort to just lurking, because I know I have a contribution to make to the restoration of lives, but if more understanding and respect is not shown here I will have to accept that I am not welcome and drop out of the discussions. I don't want to do that. Please don't turn ppl away who truly care.

And you or others might not understand or agree with my faith, but I am not here to push it, only to share it as I don't think, I know, that it can set anyone free. If you or anyone else can tell me how their faith, philosophy or lifestyle has set them free, I would be glad to listen. BTW, I have absolutely no association with any extremeist groups nor am I associated with any religious denomination.


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#345889 - 11/21/10 01:46 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Thanks for your kind words in the other thread, it was appreciated.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
To cont. my reply to you, first you say you think I am talking in code words and not saying what I really mean and think. I can assure you that I am not doing what you think I am doing. With every belief system, profession and lifestyle, words are used that may not be familiar to outsiders. A good example of this is, when I came to this board I was lost at first with the code words like csa, sa, triggers etc. I know what the sa words are now and can picture what triggers are although I am sure there are many I don't recognize yet.

I acknowledge that every domain has it's own language and shorthand, but the words you are using are very familiar to me, as are the contexts in which they are used. I'm happy to take your contention that you are not doing what I think you are doing at face value, but since I really don't know what you're doing, it doesn't seem helpful.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
There is lots more I have to learn about this whole subject of csa which I hope to learn here. But I don't take offense to the code words here. I know it is just the language of this group of ppl. Just as ppl from all walks of life have a language, so do I. That's all it is, nothing more. Before I spoke the language I do now, the language of a born again believer, it was foreign to me, too. I had to ask what the words meant. I learned because I wanted the peace I saw in those who spoke it and lived it.

I'm glad to hear that you have a willingness to learn, as I do. You seem to be confusing the use of jargon with the use of code words and phrases. Jargon attempts to pack a lot of meaning into a short term or acronym with the intent of communicating a lot of information to a single purpose.

Code words and phrases are used to avoid saying openly what people really mean. They are used to communicate two or more different messages to different groups of people, or to communicate two very different ideas to the same person depending on how they interpret it. At it's most basic, a code word or phrase is used to convey a pre-defined message that differs from its own literal meaning. In many cases it relies on activating a pre-existing bias or belief. Here is an example:

Quote:
...the Republican Party can't get away with calling Obama a criminal or a welfare cheat, [so] they're using new terms to get the point across--he's Black, he's urban, and he's out of step with the "rest of us." And the us, of course, are "hard-working white Americans," as Hillary Clinton put it toward the end of her failed bid to win the Democratic presidential nomination.

When someone talks about a "family oriented workplace", we know that they are saying gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people are not welcome to work there, that they don't form families, and that there is a judgement which continues to demean and marginalize them by defining them as "other" and "not one of us". With terms defined and examples shared, let's move on to this specific example.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
When I used the term "sexual brokenness", I was not referring to the man I am trying to help, although he has a form of sexual brokenness of his own. I was referring to counselors in the faith-based live-in program, that they have each had sexual addictions they have had to overcome.

Thanks for the clarification, however changing whom a code phrase is being used to refer to doesn't stop it being a code phrase. The vagueness in your communication and the use of code words and phrases that do have these other contexts is getting in the way of clear communication. I suggest you stop using them and say what you really mean in language that anyone might understand, not just the language of a specific social, religious, ethnic, or other group.

If that means saying "he's having sex with prostitutes" or "compulsively masturbating to gay porn" or "taking drugs and engaging in unsafe sex" then just simply say so. We understand the plain truths and uncomfortable realities of living with and recovering from Sexual Abuse much better than vagaries like "sexual brokenness" and "immorality".

That said, religious healing ministries have definitions of "sexual brokenness" that, while certainly inclusive of all sexual contact outside of marriage between a man and a woman, very clearly orders their priorities on dealing with homosexuality and "sexual perversion". Said another way, "Sexual Brokenness" could be considered the inclusive foreground idea, while really meaning "homosexuality" and "perversion". Here's one example:

Quote:
Sexual brokenness can best be defined as any form of sex other than between a man and woman within the bounds of marriage. We believe that sex within marriage should be held sacred for bringing bonding, intimacy, pleasure procreation, and building oneness between the man and woman. Sexual brokenness can be male homosexuality, lesbianism, and sex between a man and woman outside of marriage.

My reading of this is that all gays and lesbians are judged and deemed "sexually broken" as are any straight people who engage in pre-marital sex. That's a very wide net to cast under "sexual brokenness". Are these ministries really more focused on addressing the problem that straight people are having sex outside of marriage? While I think a call down of these facilities and an audit of the types of cases they take would show a disproportionate per capita focus on same-sex attraction issues vs. straight issues, I'm happy to stipulate that "sexual brokenness" does include issues other than same-sex attraction so we can move on.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
In a different post I had asked if there is a link between someone who has experienced csa and acting out as an adult. In another post I shared that this man's family of origin is into many immoral behaviors. When a child grows up seeing this there is confusion and insecurity which very well could influence him to make wrong choices of his own as he grows into adulthood. I said all of this, but not in the way or for the purpose as you took it to mean. I did say that faith-based programs are the way we choose to go, because as you said, we believe God is the answer.

I'm really interested in hearing what you did mean as it still isn't clear to me. Once again, the section in bold is vague and ominous and we have no idea what it actually means. What did the child see that was "immoral" and what is the outcome that you fear he might now be more prone to? There are myths about survivors that we can debunk authoritatively if we know what you are referring to.

It really all depends on the program that is being considered for this survivor and how well and directly it addresses his needs, versus the interpretation of his needs that other well-meaning people around him might impose. Since you haven't told us what this man is experiencing in enough detail to be helpful, it's hard for other survivors to chime in with their related experiences. If you point us to the programs being considered we could the tell you how well it addresses the issues he's facing, and we may even have an alumnus of the program in our membership.

Please ensure that the people running and staffing the faith-based programs you are considering are properly qualified psychologists, clinicians, and counselors in good standing with their professional associations. The majority of faith-based programs I have reviewed were staffed by ministers and pastors with no professional qualifications in the mental health field, and no specialized training in the psychology and challenges of male sexual abuse survivors.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
The term sexual brokenness is by no means limited to ex-gay ministries. It is not solely directed only to those who are gay. It refers to any kind of sexual immorality. In writing about our family member's culpability, I am trying to be as discreet as possible, but if I was to go into more detail about why we are alarmed at his behavior you would totally understand and be right there with us.

We dealt with "sexual brokenness" above, but it's worth pointing out your judgement here of gays as immoral. In your premise, there is nothing a gay or lesbian person can do to be considered moral. While I find this personally demeaning and offensive, what concerns me most are the implications for you family member. That you consider him culpable, meriting condemnation or blame, says a great deal. Blaming survivors for acting out, and by extension for their abuse, can be an incredibly damaging thing to do. You've intimated that this man is a survivor, please treat him with compassion, care, and no judgement while he gets stabilized so he can begin work on his recovery.

I don't understand why discretion is a concern on this anonymous message board where you are posting under a pseudonym. No one knows who you are, and we survivors are disclosing the most personal and painful details of our lives and recoveries here. Please consider matching the level of integrity and honesty you see here in your own disclosures and interactions.

It's not unheard of for someone to be more concerned about discretion because of their own potential shame and embarrassment, and preventing that person from taking the actions to get their family member the help he needs.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
Your thought that he might be gay and that the faith-based program we are looking at is specifically geared to deprogramming gay men is totally wrong. The program deals with delivering men from any kind of sin/addiction that controls men's lives thus hindering their relationship with God and destroying their relationship with their families.

I'm very glad to hear it. What program are we talking about?

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
You say, "In your communication here so far your disgust and disapproval of this situation comes across very strongly. The judgmental language you use is unloving and unsupportive of this man's situation, whatever it may be." Again, you are looking through the filter of your own thoughts. Do you feel unloved and judged by ppl? Are you projecting that onto what I have said?

This is not a rebuttal of my statement, it's simply an attempt to make the situation my fault by suggesting that there is something wrong with me. At this point I have to question the level of self-awareness you are bringing to this discussion.

It's your judgment of your survivor relative, of me, and of many hundreds of men here at MaleSurvivor battling with their recoveries that is prompting me to engage with you in the most open and respectful way I can. You've judged many of us in your posts in just the short time you've been here. So far you've casually called me immoral, exhibited homophobia, and suggested that there is something wrong with me to avoid examining your own language and behavior.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
You don't know what this man's specific issues are, but our family has lived with the fallout from his behaviors for years now. He, himself, acknowledges that the problem is his and is ready to get help. In no way am I judgmental or unloving of this man. I am relieved, as is our entire family, that he is finally going to get the counseling he needs.

You are quite correct, I don't know this man's issues because you have been too reticent or ashamed to share them. That fact has not been our choice, it's been yours. We must all take responsibility for our actions, and we must all seek help when it is needed. The fact remains that the language you have used to talk about this man's situation is not compassionate, instead it has been judging, shaming and blaming. Trust me, if there is something that survivors of sexual abuse know how to recognize, it's judgement, shame, and blame.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
We have spent hours of our time researching where he can get appropriate help, because although he acknowledges his problem, he is childlike in his ability to secure the needed info for himself. He says he is confused in his mind and has extreme difficulty focusing on the task. This is a husband and a father yet he is helpless acting when it comes to taking responsibility for deep issues he has.

I applaud the effort you've taken to find where this man can get the help he needs. At the same time, do you even hear what you are saying about this man? You tell us he's child-like and helpless, and then you blame him for not being able to "take responsibility" for his issues.

As a boy, this man was in the equivalent of a brutal, flesh-tearing, bone-breaking car crash where he was more profoundly injured than you can possibly understand. He received no medical attention at the time, and your "compassionate" response isn't to finally get him the care he needs, but to blame him for limping.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
We don't want to see this marriage and home break up. When young children constantly ask, "What's wrong with daddy?", that says it all. We are standing behind him to help him get all the help he needs. For you to say it sounds like we are against him and shoving him in the wrong direction, where do you come up with that? No, he has a loving family that fully supports him, but we are not in denial that he has significant problems.

I hope we can both agree that the integrity of our families, even the immoral ones like mine, is very important. It's gratifying to know that he has a family that will do everything that is required to "get all the help he needs". My hope is that this includes choosing a program with qualified and licensed professionals, expertise with male survivors, and a proven track record of success.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
It seems the only nice thing you said in your whole post is you wish us luck in our efforts to help this man. It would help first and foremost to be believed. Have perpetrators come to this board and trolled members here? Because you and a few of the other members seem very on guard and are making a lot of accusations that are not true.

That isn't unknown, but that isn't the most common thing we've experienced. That is having problems getting our families to believe what happened to us, and then to let us, or help us, get the help we need. I've made no accusations, just observations based on what you've said (and haven't said) so far. I don't think I'm alone in these observations and impressions and I'm very open to hearing a more complete story.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
I wish you could see into my heart as then you would know the kind of person I am which is far different then you described in your post. I genuinely love and care about this husband/father and am not interfering in his life. He has asked for our family's support.

You have already shown us your heart in your postings so far and I find it judging of your family member and lacking in understanding and empathy for his suffering. I will be happy to be proven wrong,

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
And I genuinely care about the issue of csa. I would ask you and the others to try to be more sensitive to newcomers and realize we are struggling for help and answers just like you are. I don't want to resort to just lurking, because I know I have a contribution to make to the restoration of lives, but if more understanding and respect is not shown here I will have to accept that I am not welcome and drop out of the discussions. I don't want to do that. Please don't turn ppl away who truly care.

It may be that you have a contribution to make that can help some survivors, but I cannot leave myself open to your beliefs and way of expressing yourself.

Originally Posted By: jesusfreesya
And you or others might not understand or agree with my faith, but I am not here to push it, only to share it as I don't think, I know, that it can set anyone free. If you or anyone else can tell me how their faith, philosophy or lifestyle has set them free, I would be glad to listen. BTW, I have absolutely no association with any extremeist groups nor am I associated with any religious denomination.

I am not hostile to the idea of the divine, only to those who wear it's benediction in arrogance and conviction of their own righteousness, using the divine as license to pass judgement on others.

I have been a staunch supporter for the involvement of women on this site and I appreciate the balance and perspective that their presence brings. Many men find the presence of women here deeply uncomfortable and difficult. I have found in so many women here who are family and friends of survivors a kind of grace that is uncommon and very welcome. I hope very much that someday I shall see that grace in you.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#345912 - 11/21/10 05:13 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
JFY,

I want to tell you a story about when I first came to MaleSurvivor. I was so angry with “The Church” and “God”. I didn’t realize how deep this anger was and thought I had it under control till I read some strong messaging from some of the Christian men on this site suggesting they had the answers. What I was hearing from them and now you is there is easy fix to the injuries caused by others for those of us who do not believe if we would just lay ourselves down at the feet of the one and only true Healer.

I strongly took offense, which I had ever right, and fought back. It was in the fighting back that I went awry. I allowed my own prejudices and mind set to cloud my thinking. I was hurtful in some of my interactions with my “survivor” brothers. There were a few men who took me on swinging back with full force and I, like you have said, felt unwelcomed and pushed aside. The reality was I was using unwelcoming, non-inclusive judgmental wording much like I see in your easy use of “immoral” and “brokenness”. In doing so I pushed many kind and thoughtful men away from me, then blamed them for not being by my side.

Fortunately for me, there were a couple of Christian men who on the PM side of things took me under their wing and supported my hurt, caused by those in the church. One man in particular allowed me to rant a little (okay a lot) till I was tired and now open to his show of respect and love towards me - a nonbeliever. I’ve not come one inch closer to believing in a divine but I truly regret my earlier “reaction” to a “perceived” threat. Some of forgiven me some have not. I’ve earned both of these “reactions” to the “perceived” threat I brought to MS.

What I’m trying to say is that we each come with our own set of values, moral to some immoral to others. But those judgments need to be laid aside the moment we type in our password and come onto this board. We are not here to bring salvation and “morality”. What I learned from my brothers who pushed back against my bitterness was it was far more important for me to treat everyone morally. (Which I'll fail at and when I do I need the push back of my brothers and sisters here on MS) Earlybird

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#346172 - 11/24/10 04:36 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
efm, earlybird and others,

It has been brought to my attention that the topic of our discussion here is a big trigger for some csa survivors ( clergy abuse or God used wrongly in yet other ways to entrap), so I would like to switch over to the spiritual forum to finish our discussion. If anyone knows how to switch this whole thread over there please let me know. Otherwise I guess I could copy and paste the posts left to reply to individually. It has been nice getting to know you and I very much respect how you have worked on your recoveries - it shows. In a different, but similar way, my life is dedicated to helping others recover and heal fully so instead of wasting their lives, they can make a difference in someone else's life. I want to wish you a peace-filled Thanksgiving. Talk to you again when the thread revives smile


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#346185 - 11/24/10 07:36 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
JFY,

I don't believe, I could be wrong, that you (As a F&F) can post on the spiritual forum. If I'm wrong I apologize up front. As I suggested in an earlier post you may PM me anytime. Not to convert but to learn and understand each other better. Earlybird



Edited by earlybird (11/24/10 07:37 PM)
_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#346321 - 11/26/10 10:13 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: earlybird]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
I have contacted a mod to see which boards are open to f&f and he said if there is not a direct de>


Edited by jesusfreesya (11/26/10 10:15 PM)

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#346834 - 12/02/10 07:55 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
jesusfreesya Offline


Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 27
I have gotten my answer from admin. that it is permissible for me, as an f&f, to post at the spiritual board, and that the spiritual board is the appropriate place for threads that contain content of a spiritual nature. So, I will leave this thread here and begin a new thread over there.

earlybird- I have decided to accept your invitation to PM you. I want everyone who participated in this thread to know that I very much appreciated, and was impressed by your very insightful, instructive comments. I had planned to reply to some of you, but now that things are changed, invite you to contact me by PM if you wish to become better acquainted and continue our discussion from where we left off. Especially, Ever-fixed Mark- I take very seriously what you posted and would like to respond to you fully if you would care to get in touch by PM.


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#346840 - 12/02/10 08:46 AM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA

Though extremely surprised, I’m glad and dismayed that you are able to post on the spiritual thread. I’m sorry for giving you misinformation. It was not an attempt on my part to block you; I simply was under a wrong impression. I’ll take you up on the PM invite. I most likely won’t be responding to your thread on the spiritual forum. This is a forum that is better off without my involvement and I’m better off not being there. I’ll look forward to our PM’s. Earlybird

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

Top
#346921 - 12/02/10 07:04 PM Re: uncovering the problem [Re: jesusfreesya]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
JFY,

I appreciate the invitation to engage privately, but I would much rather continue our discussion where it began - in public.

My response to this thread has been about how you appear to be judging your family member and my concern that decisions on what kind of treatment and counseling he might receive are not being clearly driven by his needs.

I see no need to move that component of this discussion into a "spiritual forum" which isn't relevant, and I find the desire to turn this entire thread into an issue about religious faith completely misses the point.

What. About. The. Survivor?

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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