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#34453 - 11/15/03 03:00 PM PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
I came to this site as it was 'Male survivor', and felt I could post here of some things that I felt were more appropriate among other men, not in the mixed site that I also sometime go to. It is very embarrassing topic to me, and one that I do not wish to think of any ladies reading or responding to. So please, if any ladies here are reading this, please treat this post with respect and do not read further, I ask this of you.

I am 23 years old. I have had one relationship, never intimite, with a beautiful and kind woman. She left me because it was not intimate, never get there, and because often I did not wish to be touched at all. This was late last year, and I was never able to tell her why. Recently, in the last month, I see her, and am able to talk some with her of the past, and explain that she did not do wrong at me, and apologize for how I was. We are friends now.

I am total in love with someone who has been friend of me for 6 years. We have been through much together, we have lived together as roommates before, we have even slept in same bed sometime. She is one of few people who can almost always touch me and it is okay, for hug or touch on arm or something. I know that this woman is very special to me, and I want much to share with her more then I ever share with anyone.

The only experience I have with sexual activity is the abuse. Abuse from father, from mother, from coach. I do not have any other sexual experience. None. I have never even engaged in it, well, in the 'self pleasure' kind. I have almost few times, and can not do it. I get scared, I feel him again, hear him in head always, and feel the shame, how it is bad and dirty and so am I.

So, when it comes to anything like sexual activity, whether of myself or other, I have no idea what even to do. I know that I am not ready for this with this woman, as wonderful as she is, I am not ready to do this yet with her. But, I can not even properly even, well, like 'practice' or nothing of that kind.

Is this making sense at all? I feel it isn't, and I do not wish to embarrass myself further. It is not 'how to' that I ask here, although I have no clue of that either. But I do ask, how to get away of the thoughts of it bad, shameful, dirty, that I am stupid or ugly or bad to even think it? How to get past the thoughts in the head, to be able to consider doing anything physical? I want to have some kind of sexual experience that feels good, that does not feel as abuse.

Anyone, is there advice to help? I am sorry to be so confused.

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#34454 - 11/16/03 03:40 AM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Leo
Quote:
It is very embarrassing topic to me,
You have no reason to feel that way here. I like you took many years before I could feel comforble in the arms of a lady. It was on my 22 birthday that I had my first sexual experence with a laddy. At that time it was just SEX no LOVE. It was also the laddy's birthday she was 19 and wanted to have SEX with 19 men. I was # 1 that day, I got off but it did not feel right.
A few months later I meet a beautiful laddy and we dated for a long time but never had sex. She helped me feel whole and good and we would spend hours just hugging each other. She understood that I needed to go slow, I was scared to take the next steep, We where in love with out even having SEX. We could lay and hug each other for hours talking about eveyrthing. She showed me how to get close to a women without fear. College ended for summer break and we never saw each other again.
Leo it sounds like this lady is good for you and understanding your special needs. Take it slowly one step at a time.

Quote:
I have never even engaged in it, well, in the 'self pleasure' kind. I have almost few times, and can not do it. I get scared, I feel him again, hear him in head always, and feel the shame, how it is bad and dirty and so am I.
It is not bad or dirty when a man act in the 'self pleasure' kind, it is a human thing to do.

Also there are very good books that can help you learn what sex is all about, Go to the libbary to check them out
.
Plant your love and let it grow,
Tom

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#34455 - 11/16/03 05:58 AM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
theo Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 1117
leosha,
my friend, you constantly amaze me with your candor and compassion. i know you are going through a great deal right now, but your strength shines through when you have the courage to not only reach out to others but to also be so honest about issues that many would lack the courage to mention.

i look back over my own adult life and in light of what i have learned not only of what i have survived as a child but also what i have survived as a result of my own foolish choices. i was going around in a pretty confused state of mind for many years with no understanding of why. one result of this is that i have had many partners by choice, some casual, most in relationships. i look back on all of that and i realize that i regret the chances i took with my health. i am very grateful to Holy Mystery that nothing serious ever came out of it to risk my health or the life of lady theo, but the regret is there now because i finally found someone who is genuinely real and who truly loves me even with all my faults. my regret is that i could not give her that gift of being my first. i am not making any moral statements here, just voicing a regret that i could not give the one person who has shown me what it means to live and love the one of the greatest gifts a person can give another. i love muldoon's story of the wonderful girl he held for the time they shared. love is a beautiful thing, and when it truly happens it means that two people see through each other's facade yet loves them still, or perhaps even more. i did things i regret in my confusion to reach out to someone, but had i waited for kind of love that lady theo has shown i know now there would have been no confusion. the only words of thought or advice i have to offer is really simple, alexei, if it's real, there will be no confusion...and i know you have the heart and the brains to tell the difference. you will know.

_________________________
journey well,
theo dewolfe

- It is gift, and gift will find its way
- I inherit through my choice. I build through my affirmation. It is through my freedom that I nurture, or fade into autonomy
- I was not given to serve life, but to embrace it

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#34456 - 11/16/03 06:54 AM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Tribear Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Leosha:
So please, if any ladies here are reading this, please treat this post with respect and do not read further, I ask this of you.

I am 23 years old...
I am total in love with someone who has been friend of me for 6 years. We have been through much together.

The only experience I have with sexual activity is the abuse.

So, when it comes to anything like sexual activity, whether of myself or other, I have no idea what even to do.

Is this making sense at all?

But I do ask, how to get away of the thoughts of it bad, shameful, dirty, that I am stupid or ugly or bad to even think it? How to get past the thoughts in the head, to be able to consider doing anything physical?

Anyone, is there advice to help? I am sorry to be so confused.

leosha
Leosha,

I hope all ladies respected your boundaries.

You have a right to be confused. It's what you were taught. I hate that any people ever did that to you. It was very mean and selfish of them.

The idea that anything at all sexual makes you feel bad is so sad to me, but I think I understand it. I don't think you are strange or ruined.

You were poisoned by your past experiences with 'sex', because it was really sexual abuse, it was violence. You are just now getting the poison out of your system. Give that cleansing process some time, for the poison to leave your system.

People who have been poisoned are often so sick, that they feel they will never eat again. They don't even want to think about food. But the sickness subsides, and their natural appetite always comes back. They soon eat, and enjoy it too.

I think maybe it will be like that about sex too, because love and sex are a natural combination. That connection is very deep in our genetic makeup.

You have something good going for you about sex and love, and I bet you don't see it. Even though you were introduced to sexual activity in a very distorted way, you are not acting out in a distorted way toward this new woman you love, or anyone else. Instead you have healthy boundaries with her, and you respect her. That is the true basis for love anyway, including sexual love of the most intimate type. I think you are well on your way.

She must love you too, since she's stayed so close. I hope she will give you some more time, she probably will. If necessary, ask her to do so. (Ask, ask, ask!)

I am alone for now, with no prospects, and it is very difficult.

I was married and had a good sex life once, but when I got my memories, sex made me sick too for a while. Now it feels better for me, and I very much want a woman in my life again, that definitely includes sexually. Abuse does that to both men and women, sometimes they just don't want to be touched. You are allowed to feel like that, it's your body! And, it can get better.

I'm sorry you had your love life poisoned, it hurts to be alone or not held. But it is wonderful to be in love, and hold the woman you love in your arms in a healthy sexual way. Give it some time, I believe you will get there if you do not give up.

A friend,

Tribear


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#34457 - 11/18/03 12:49 PM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Leosha Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 3614
Loc: Right here
Thank you all to respond and help me feel maybe some 'normal' of this. Just do not know what to think of it, other then I must be bad and wrong.

leosha

_________________________
Avatar photo in memory of my younger brother Makar.

"Human salvation lies in the hands of the creatively maladjusted."~~~Martin Luther King Jr., 1963

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#34458 - 11/18/03 04:44 PM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Leosha
Quote:
Just do not know what to think of it, other then I must be bad and wrong.
NO !
You are neither bad or wrong, feeling that you are in love with someone - but unable to express your love - isn't in any way bad or wrong.

And the fear that you could not be intimate with that person is a normal enough fear, for survivors.

'Normal' people, whoever they are, also feel these things, but they seem magnified to us.
We just have to be a little bit braver, try a little bit harder, and trust ourselves a little bit more than we did yesterday.

If it's who I think it is that you have these feelings for then I think she will respond with kindness, even if the answer was "maybe" or even "no". I think that if you made a genuine approach to her and told her of your feelings then you would be surprised.

We all fear rejection, but if you are serious and tell her in a loving way, as I'm sure you would, then I would almost guarantee that her response to you would be returned in the same way.
I don't think that you would lose a 'friend' at all.

Rejection is easier to deal with than knowing we didn't even try.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#34459 - 11/19/03 11:48 PM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Leosha,

As you probably already know: Sex doesn't mean love. And Love doesn't mean having sex. Love is honoring the person you have, sharing your life with them, including the joys and triumphs and the pain and sorrow. Love is respecting the others boundaries and limitations. Love goes both ways. The act of making love will come when the time is right and cannot be forced to happen.

Before you can be comfortable with another, you need to be comforatable with yourself and your parts. Don't feel like it is dirty or wrong to explore yourself to understand yourself and how you work.

You appear to have a connection with this woman. I guess that next logical thing to do is to let her know how you feel about her and see if this is mutual, to see if it has a future of moving on. It is a great step, but the payoff can be even greater.

You have a great deal of heart, compassion, and strength. This shows through your posts and replies to others. You have a lot to offer a fine young woman.

Bill

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#34460 - 11/20/03 12:43 AM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 248
Loc: Europe
Leosha,

Your feelings are understandable. Take things slowly.

I am not a woman, but there is a book for women survivors of sexual abuse that I am finding helpful.

It is entitled, The Courage to Heal, by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis. In it there are chapters on "Your body," "Intimacy," and "Sex."

It takes a little imagination sometimes to adapt what they say to a male perspective, but usually I'm surprised at how well they are describing my own experience and feelings. (Danger: some things in the book sound like men bashing, but I don't think they are. At vulnerable times, could be a trigger though. Any body else know this book? Positive or Negative reviews? It has helped me, but maybe others have had a different experience?)

I am so glad there is a sight where we men can talk to other men with similar experiences. It is an absolute Godsend. I find the presence of women, either in real life or on-line, can be inhibiting.

At the same time, when I am ready, I find I need the input of women. Somehow, I can't re-claim my manhood without involving women in the conversation too.

I digress.

All I am trying to say is that, as a male survivor of csa (both male and female perps) I can understand the need for a male only thread sometimes. I am also trying to recommend a book that is helping me and that may help you as well--even though it is written for women.

Just between us guys, my past caught up with me in bed just the other night and it was pretty miserable.

Thanks having the courage to open up and start this thread.

learning2remember

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#34461 - 11/20/03 06:21 AM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
Tribear Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/03
Posts: 66
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by learning2remember:

It is entitled, The Courage to Heal, by Ellen Bass and Laura Davis.

(Danger: some things in the book sound like men bashing, but I don't think they are. At vulnerable times, could be a trigger though. Any body else know this book? Positive or Negative reviews? It has helped me, but maybe others have had a different experience?)

Note, possible triggers here.

Their insights are great, their writing style is comforting, it's better than anything else I have read at hitting the nail on the head about this abuse monster.

But, it is a 'women only' book from my closer look.

I switched to their much shorter primer to read first, called "Beginning to Heal". I felt a bit man bashed or at least estranged at times, but thought maybe it was a distortion. So I left it alone for a few years. I went back just the other day for a better look, and hopefully some uplifting.

I have decided the book is not there for me.

There are some case histories presented under "Courageous Women", there isn't a single case of "A Courageous Man". OK, they admit it's mostly a woman's book, so I went past that.

But then I went through specifically looking for the list of perpetrators--ALL of them were males perpetrating on females, I highlighted them one by one. I have met several women who had female prepetrators, as well as male. Those who hurt me were were of both genders, and I've found that isn't unusual at all.

If they wanted to help mostly the shes of this world, that's good. There are some beautifully spirited women in great pain in this world, just like us. But a balanced and accurate presentation would have to include at least one mention of a female perpetrator. Women, not just men, abuse girls.

I have a woman friend who abused her own daughter, but did stop it in a big hurry, years ago. She is still sorry, and has taken the responsible steps of accountability--that's why I can still be friends with her.

The failure to list even one such incident seems way too big to be a coincidence to me. In any case, that oversight subconciously feeds the fire of women hating 'those awful men', for those who have that outlook. That doesn't even serve women well--what about the ones trying to work their way through a rocky marriage, whatever the cause? They don't need the built-in distortion IMO.

Anyone ever been the only male in a treatment group? I have, several times, and they might as well have given me a shirt with a target painted on it. Out of 6 or 7 women half had no problem with me, but oh the transference by the rest--UGH!

If the book helps you or anyone, it's not my focus here to deny anyone any comfort--take it where you can get it. You have read the good and sorted through the rest. My point is that the rest is there.

I'm glad we have a site, but I sure don't 'hate women', my God! Instead, I look at people one (or two) at a time, and render them this way or that way based on their owm merit, regardless of gender. That includes Bass and Davis.

"Even a dog knows the difference between getting kicked and being tripped over". The quote is substantially correct.

Tb


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#34462 - 11/20/03 02:59 PM Re: PLEASE-NO ladies read this, trigger
outis Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 2260
Loc: Maryland USA
TRIGGER WARNING

I got their workbook, which includes Male Survivors in the subtitle, and it has been helpful for me. I saw Mike Lew's quote about "Courage to Heal" in the preface to the workbook, something like, "when men ask me if they should buy this book I tell them to change the pronouns. Women have done just that for years." So I went ahead and bought "Courage to Heal" itself. (I can do the pronoun switching stuff pretty well; I attended a (then) women's college.) In one or the other they have a section about female abusers, too.

It was in that workbook that I first wrote out the suicide prevention plan that brought me to this site instead of to the woods with a razor last summer. I think it was very helpful.

Joe

_________________________
"Telemachos, your guest is no discredit to you. I wasted no time in stringing the bow, and I did not miss the mark. My strength is yet unbroken…"—The Odyssey, translated by W.H.D. Rouse

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