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#343062 - 10/25/10 05:30 PM Christian and Gay?
Tinman Offline


Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 359
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
Man, I cannot tell you how I struggled to figure out where to put this post. It's almost a no upside decision. Should I put it in the GLBQ forum or here?

First off, let me say this: I am gay. And celibate. Trying to deny being gay is like trying to deny I am left-handed. I can want to be right-handed, but it's not reality.

Thus my dilemma. When I first became a Christian in the military, I was still who I am today. But I believed the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. So I prayed and I begged that God would turn me straight. And for a long time, I thought that my prayers would someday be answered. They weren't.

So I came out. And I turned my back on God. You know, the same one who let me be molested. Because belief in Him was incompatible with who I was. I never believed in cafeteria Christianity. You accept it all or you accept none of it.

All was OK for awhile. Until I hit 50 and the sense of my own mortality set in. I tried to turn back to God, but I felt (bolstered by some well-meaning Christians) that I had to deny who I was to be accepted by God. Needless to say, that didn't work. I hated what I was and could not reconcile reality with my wishes. To those who say it is a choice, I ask you this? Why in the name of God would anybody CHOOSE something that would leave me feeling so lost? And, if it was a choice, why couldn't I become straight?

To preserve what sanity I had, I made a compromise. I said "God, ok, you made me gay, but the acts are a sin, so I will be celibate." I cried through that promise.

And now, having discovered I have to be alone forever, my depression (diagnosed) has gotten to the point that I just can't cope. Or barely cope.

I wrote a friend an email about this. But without the God part. And he told me he knew it has always pained me that I had no family and felt I can never be with someone. Said he wanted to talk to me but has always hesitated because I mention it in passing and quickly move on. By the way, this friend is as straight as they come.

How do I resolve this? Was I born gay or did my molesters make me this way? And in either case, why do I have to be forever alone?

I am begging anyone that responds not to sound judgment on me. I have had enough of that, I know what both sides say. From both sides of the issue.

_________________________
Tinman
"I finally have my heart!"

To the perps: Don't worry about me coming after you. But you damn well better watch out for God! "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord

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#343098 - 10/25/10 09:37 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Tinman]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 854
Loc: Kc,Mo
ok here we go no matter who tries to answer your ? there are going to be those who disagree but here goes anyway.

For me this is a no brainier the church "christians"

not some building

have totally messed this up. i can only paint a picture of this try to stay with me .

the woman at the well what did Jesus do he came with open arms and told her go and sin no more .

the adulterer that every one wanted to stone what did he do he came with open arms .

this is one of the many problems with the church "christians"

not some building

are to judgmental picking and choosing who can come to he cross who is dressed well enough who is to big to tall to drunk to proud you get the picture .

there has been so much damage that people are running away from the very church that should be welcoming them with open arms REGARDLESS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION ,DRUNK , STRAIT ,BI,ADDICT OR NON ADDICT . THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. it is not up to us to except who we think is worthy of salvation it is up to the master the one who came to forgive ALL SIN not just some .

the church has alienated and categorized ,GAYS,DRUNKS,BI SEXUALS ,THIEVES,ADULTERERS the list goes on and on while they turn the eye to the JUDGING, PRIDEFUL,LUST,GREED,SLOTH,GOSSIP,HAUGHTY EYES,LYING TONGUE. AND ON AND ON. bottom line is Sin is Sin and you can noT pick and choose what sin is greater than the other.

Christians or so called Christians have given real Christians a bad name i mean really it drives me nuts to sEE on tv or driving down the streets watching "so called Christians" standing outside with pic it signs with things like

Jesus Hates FA#@ and Fa#@ are gonna burn in hell

COME ON REALLY
can you picture Jesus with a sign like that ?
HELL NO

Jesus would come and sit with you and talk with you and eat with you and LOVE you .

He would come with open arms and between you and him he would work it out through the power of the holy spirit just as he did with the tax collectors and the Sinners he sat with .

he came to save sinners that is what we all are he would treat you no different . the bible tells us to work out our own salvation . he is our personal Lord and Savior that means you build a relationship with him and if he Chooses to convict you to sin no more in that ONE area in your life than so be it .

If you just have that one Sin in your life please tell me how you are pulling that one off . everyone has sin in their life and because others have made this sin or that sin more greater than another is why people find themselves in the position you are in.

to me i could choose to live a life with my lustful nature i was molested and enjoyed the pleasures with other guys and when i was old enough to make the choice witch way i was gonna go i tried being with a guy and i new that it was not going to work out . i enjoyed the things i was taught i enjoyed certain sexual acts and still would if i allowed myself to do that .

but as i put my lustful nature to the side and made a conscious decision to be with a woman and put my lustful nature below my love for my God than it became a choice.

can i say that people are born Gay and there is nothing they can do about it no i can not say that .

this is just me and my own opinion

i believe just maybe people are born the way they are for a reason and that God gives them a choice to either live in that nature or turn from it

as he gives all people a choice to live in their sin nature .

we are born with that sin nature that is why Jesus came to take that sin nature and replace it with a New Nature and that is what being born again is all about .

we than can be changed by the holy spirit it is up to You and GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT to renew your mind and to work on the many sins that plague each and every one of us.

do some sins take longer to deal with ? of course they do are you not a Christian because you fall just like everyone else ? of course you are still a Christian . there is to much judging going on .

people are going to get it faster than others. as long as your heart burns for God and you are working this thing than who the hell can judge you or question your relationship or your salvation. NO ONE CAN

lets see from the outside looking in would most people call David a Christian most certainly not . lets face it he did not manage his family well , he murdered for his own lustful pleasures , he numbered Israel and cost the lives of thousands, and the list goes on but yet his heart burned for God and he kept on searching for this God of Mercy And Grace and God showed him favor and God forgave him .

the bible is filled with others shall we look at Peter
Peter lied , He blasphemed , he denied the Savior not 1 time not 2 times but 3 and yet God allowed him to give the first sermon and have the first Church.


just because people decided to label different types of sin natures to fit their own agenda we find ourselves wondering if we to can come to the Cross of MERCY AND GRACE AND FORGIVENESS

i must say this is no greater task than he gives everyone
dealing with their sin nature that is in one way or another

weather it be a so called gay, nature , bi nature, lustful nature and so on

everyone has something or somethings they struggle with .

but because we have chosen to choose what sin is supposedly more wrong or more sinful than another , this is why it became such a big issue.

people deflect their own sin on one another so they can make there own less of a factor when in reality Sin is Sin.

do i think it is right
no

do i think it is fare
no

i am i God and pretend that i do understand it all or no it all
no

for his ways are not my ways and his thoughts are not my thoughts

and believe me if i could change some things or should i say a lot of things in the bible than i would

but than again God did not ask for my 2 cents.

and i am glad of that

because he let me do it my way and it did not work but when i started to do it his way WOW what a difference.

my whole life has changed for the better . when you give your life to Christ it is not all peaches and cream in fact it if you ask me it gets tougher because the enemy does not want you to be a real man or woman of God .

if he can get you to forget about Grace than he has you beat.

Gods grace carries all of us when we feel unworthy and it carries us when we fall . as long as it does not become our crutch than Grace will be there because if there is one thing i am glad for is that his" Mercies are renewed daily"
and there is a reason for that .

it is because each and everyone of us needs it . God is not like us he loves us in spite of

not because of

we have a because of type of love

when God has agape love
in spite kind of love a love that can not be changed

stay with me here this pretty much sums it up

Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.


are you in Christ Jesus ? did he not take your sin to the cross when you excepted him? if you have a heart for God and excepted him in your heart than you are free and there is no condemnation from anybody not even from yourself


5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires;

this is how we used to live

but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.

this is what you are doing now this is where the conflict come from

6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

you are fighting against your sinful nature you are no longer controlled by it . and it is just not your so called "gay' nature you are fighting against

it is all sin

to me this just happens to be your thorn in the flesh and it is what keeps us humble . ask yourself this ,if not for the thorn would you cry out to God as much as you do ? probably not


9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Christ gives us the power through the holy spirit to fight off the flesh and its desires and yes we will loose some battles but we will ultimately win the war if we stay at it , not just limited to sexuality but all fleshy desires. our flesh is to die so the spirit can live and the stronger that spirit gets and the more we listen and learn and grow in the spirit the more power we have over sin

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


do i like all of this
no do i agree with all of it of course not because in my flesh i want to say so if i do not do these things i am going to be condemned how can this be
and that is not fare so on and so fourth

i do not understand all of this

but what i do understand is that the moment i started living life in the spirit instead of life in the flesh my life has been a whole hell of a lot better.

like i said is it all peaches and cream no but for me it has worked i will not debate this with anyone and i will not argue with anyone about this all i am saying is i was hungry and found bread all i am trying to do is show others where i found this bread .

if you choose to believe what you believe that is fine with me who am i to condemn you or anyone else for what they believe or do not believe . if my God gives me the choice why would i not do the same.

so to anyone who wants to get there point across or say this or that or why this or why that the answer is

i do not have all the answers and i do not no everything all i can tell you is what worked for me .

and if what is working for you is working than i respect that and i no you might not want any of the bread i am telling you about that is cool to


thanks for reading


o and ps TINMAN

yes you still are are a Christian even if you are Gay or "sinner" because i to am a sinner just saved by GRACE nothing more nothing less


Romans 8:38-39 (New International Version)

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Edited by nltsaved (10/25/10 09:41 PM)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#343100 - 10/25/10 09:56 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Tinman]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Tinman,

You are not alone. Being gay and Christian is reconcilable. I know it feels overwhelming, but there is hope.

I am sooooo sorry that you have gone through this. My heart feels for you. It makes me so sad to hear stories like yours and unfortunately such stories are all too common.

My best friend is a gay Christian and is fully accepted by his parish in the Anglican Church, which I think is the equivalent of Episcopal Church in the US. If he was here he'd be able to offer you all the reasons why you can have both and why being gay is not a sin. Alas I'm not so good at that because I am not as well versed as he.

Have you seen the documentary "For the Bible Tells Me So" as I can highly recommend it, as I found it very moving and informative on this issue. The official website can be found here.

A great book, which I have read, that examines the texts in the Bible is What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality

Of course there are many more gay and Christian friendly resources out there, these are just two that came to mind.

There are lots of gay Christians out there who have reconciled their sexuality with their faith. You can do it too and find the peace and love that you rightly deserve as a human being, who is loved by God.

I'm so sorry this has been such a struggle for you and I really hope that as you continue on your journey that you can find the inner peace to reach a resolution that being gay is okay.


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#343102 - 10/25/10 11:08 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: blaidd]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Tinman,

Albert Einstein once said that the definition of insanity is endlessly repeating the same action hoping for a different result. Pause for a minute and think about the many years you struggled with this. Try something different. If I were to offer you any wisdom on this it would be to give this concern you have to God and let him deal with it as he sees fit, in his time and in his way. Just let it go. Be sincere in your beliefs but let it go. If he want's you to be something you're currently not, whatever the issue is, he'll get you there in his time. Living in the shame is not what he wants for his creation.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#343103 - 10/25/10 11:08 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: blaidd]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Tinman,

I wrestled with this for so many years. I do not anymore since I sat still and allowed God to settle it for me. I allowed him to speak to me and simply love me.

I am gay. I believe in Jesus as my savior. I know what I know in my heart. And I will leave the rest to Him.


Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#343122 - 10/26/10 08:42 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: prisonerID]
sono Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
I can't believe I'm actually going to make a comment on this, but I am going to.

The only conflict between being a christian and being gay, seems to me to be if you believe the guys who wrote the Bible. It would seem to me one could believe in Jesus as the messiah and savior without having to believe in either a literal or infallible interpretation of the bible. We all know it's self contradictions, so to say it is infallible doesn't seem to make much sense and to deny that it was written by men with their own prejudices and agenda also seems fairly logical and that even the most devout believes don't stone their neighbor for shaving their beard is also a fact.

I suggest putting your faith in the principles taught by Jesus, i.e. try to be Christlike, rather than every single word of whichever translation of the incomplete ancient documents which formed the basis of the historical record of his life and mankind in that part of the world known as the Bible. That would seem to be more in keeping with what he taught anyway.

And just for what it's worth, IMO Christians who talk about gay men in the same breath with other "sinners" are really missing the point to suggest that merely being the way you are is a sin in and of itself...I'm sorry for those against whom they are discriminating and in a way sorry for them that they're world view is so skewed as to really believe they belong to some special club...but they also scare me as well...anyone remember W. ???


Be happy with yourself!

all the best from a non-religious straight guy,

Kevin

_________________________
the family
the perp

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#343134 - 10/26/10 10:40 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: sono]
InsideTheWall Offline


Registered: 01/10/09
Posts: 286
Since I won't be the first non-religious straight guy posting here, and its been posted in the Spirituality section instead of the GBT area, I'm going to go ahead and add something regarding what I would normally stay out of. Also, sometimes, the best advice comes from those those different than you.

I'm going to go with what WalkingSouth implied and Sono more came out and said. You're gay dude, so what? Have you actually read Leviticus or whatever book that is in the Old Testament that talks about homosexuality? Well, to be honest, I haven't either but I've seen people quote some really, really nutty things from it. Like putting people to death who work on Sunday or wore certain kinds of clothes. Are you an OT kind of Christian? You know that, according to quite mainstream versions of Christianity, the coming of Jesus wiped alot of that stuff out, right?

I really don't think you should force yourself to remain celibate, or think this all or nothing approach towards religion is good for you. Look up Unitarianism and Anglicism for Churches that tend to be a more accepting like that.





Edited by InsideTheWall (10/26/10 10:59 AM)

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#343143 - 10/26/10 11:06 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Tinman]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey Tinman,

Here are my thoughts and beliefs as a gay man who was raised Catholic and has walked down all the roads you are exploring...

1. I don't believe in biblical inerrancy for any of the many holy books.
- any book that encodes a bronze age understanding of human reproduction and sexuality that is demonstrably wrong, cannot be considered inerrant.
- any book that was edited by a council process where there were factions seeking to control the message and doctrine that resulted can not be considered inerrant.
- any book that requires every person who wrote every line, made every change, finessed every concept to have been touched by the holy spirit to preserve it's alleged lack of error goes too far. Especially since I see clear errors in the bible.

2. I don't believe in biblical literalism in any of the many holy books.
- any book that positions murdering a child, rape, torture, slavery, and injustice as acceptable cannot be considered literal permission to practice those values in the modern world.
- any book that puts forward killing people for talking back to their parents, working on the sabbath, wearing two different fibers, etc. fails the moral, ethical and "red face" test with me.

3. I don't believe that modern religion owns administering and arbitrating our connection and relationship to the divine.
- Religions by their nature create structures and dogma that seeks to preserve the core values of the faith they hold, and to some degree the status quo that the dogma creates.
- the Abrahamic faiths were, in their way and in their time, revolutionary. Now, dissent and challenges to old ideas is crushed rather than considered with an open heart.
- no one is more important, no one's truth is more relevant, and no one's feelings are more central to a relationship with the divine than yours.

Originally Posted By: Tinman
First off, let me say this: I am gay. And celibate. Trying to deny being gay is like trying to deny I am left-handed. I can want to be right-handed, but it's not reality.

No book or faith can deny your self-awareness and self-knowledge. No one knows your truth as well as you do. Trust that.

Quote:
To preserve what sanity I had, I made a compromise. I said "God, ok, you made me gay, but the acts are a sin, so I will be celibate." I cried through that promise.

And now, having discovered I have to be alone forever, my depression (diagnosed) has gotten to the point that I just can't cope. Or barely cope.

No source of the divine with compassion and love could ever impose the restrictions you are holding upon yourself. Humans are social and loving creatures and to deny that is to deny your own humanity. Don't.

Don't deny your humanity, your yearning for love and connection, and your obvious sense of how fundamentally important having full human emotional and, yes, sexual relationship is in your life.

Quote:
How do I resolve this? Was I born gay or did my molesters make me this way? And in either case, why do I have to be forever alone?

Follow what you know to be right and true in your own heart, with your own truth. How it came to pass that you are gay is completely immaterial. If you think that there is some kind of punishment, or inferiority, or guilt or brokenness implied by who you are as a gay man or as a survivor, that is the problem.

You don't need to deny your identity and your nature. You don't need to be alone. You provide the power to a religion that places this restriction upon you. For me, I recognized that in continuing to give a religion and it's inerrant and literal dogma that power in my life I was complicit and participating in my own oppression.

Consider taking back that power from religion and forging your own, personal and intimate connection with the divine.

Consider accepting who you are fully and completely and understanding that acceptance doesn't separate you from the divine, it brings you closer to it's truth and core.

Consider the infinitely loving, compassionate, and just divinity that you hold in your heart and ask if what is being asked and expected of you is loving, compassionate and just.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#343155 - 10/26/10 12:53 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
Tinman Offline


Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 359
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
I want to say thank you for the sensitive way you have all handled this with me. It's a lot to process, of course.

I don't know where I will end up with this, but I am buoyed by the compassion and lack of judgment in what I have read here.

_________________________
Tinman
"I finally have my heart!"

To the perps: Don't worry about me coming after you. But you damn well better watch out for God! "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord

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#343204 - 10/26/10 09:08 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Tinman]
kb8715 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 808
The God I believe in is no bigot! The way I see it to feel unwelcomed in your faith because you are gay would be much the same as feeling unwelcomed because of your skin color. Keep your faith and heal brother....thats my straight guy heartfelt advice.

Keith

_________________________
"You can get far in life by pushing except through a door marked PULL...." Profile quote in my oldest son's senior year HS Yearbook.

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#343275 - 10/27/10 12:27 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
wayne9 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
I have something I want to say here. First of I want to apologize for anything that might seem hurtful of judgmental because that is not what I am trying to do.

I was raised in a Christian family. I have been taught all my life the gay lifestyle is sinful. I understand why this is taught. God created Adam…….he then created Eve that man would not be alone. He meant it to be this way. I understand that God did not intend for man to be with man or women to be with women. All this I know and understand………

Now for what I don’t understand…..

Where do I stand as far as God is concerned? I know that I am more attracted to men than women. I know that if all things were the same as far as God and society was concerned that I would probably be in a same sex relationship. These things I KNOW about myself. Others do not! Is it because of the CSA that I experienced during my childhood years (8-12 years old). Is it because something didn’t form in my brain the same way it does in a normal boys mind. Which every the case, I know the outcome of it. I’ve known it for 30-40 years.
I have asked God for help so many times but things remain the same. I sit in Church services and feel so much guilt for these thoughts and desires I have inside. The distress of knowing there are so many Christian friends sitting in the same service that have no idea about this part of my life and who would not understand seems to get worse as time goes on. Where do I get peace from all the turmoil inside……..


Tim





Edited by wayne9 (10/27/10 12:30 PM)

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#343284 - 10/27/10 01:27 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: wayne9]
nltsaved Offline


Registered: 08/26/08
Posts: 854
Loc: Kc,Mo
God cares and understands us all . you have a heart for him that is all he asked for do not worry about all the other stuff let go and let God worry about all of the other stuff . keep working this thing .

he loves you just the way you are he made you just the way he wanted stop focusing on yourself i hate to say it but this life is not all about us anyway .

it is about God working in and through us to build the kindom of God . everything seems to work itself out doing this . to much thinking about what others think and what others around us are doing and feeling .

be the light that God created you to be for others to see . stop condiming yourself for how God made you after all he made you right .

do you not think he knew what he was doing when he made you ?
he knew what he was doing and he knows your heart that is what matters. not anything else .

find peace knowing that the God of the universe made you perfect just the way he wanted to make you and that weather you feel you are gay or not he still loves you . as long as you are living your life for him than all the other stuff tends to work itself out and the focust shifts from you to him and his plan .

and just because others around you yes even in the church might look down on you EVEN THO THEY HAVE THIER OWN ISSUES and are not expressing them out loud , just know every one is dealing with something or some things and just because this issue has been pounded into everyones head like it is the only thing going on in the church and every where else does not make it any worse than other things.

it is not the feelings you are having that is the problem i am sure lots of people feel the same thing even if it is not for the same sex they still want to do things and think of things that are not pleasing to God but no one is talking about that now are they . so stop feeling so condemed when people every were are thinking the same things just in a differnt manner and they are no worse of than you.

we serve a perfect and holy God so all this is sin to him that is why Jesus came to take the sin from us and put it on himself because he knew that NONE are capable of being sinless . But Through Jesus Christ we are worthy .

he took all sin to the cross yes even this so called homosexuality . so give yourself a break

he died for you to have peace so have peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWgeUrD4MHI




Edited by nltsaved (10/27/10 03:10 PM)
Edit Reason: added link
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uYCAfpxrY
TRIGGER WARNING
Video of me telling my story
you are not alone never were
WRITTEN FORM
http://www.malesurvivor.org/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=339159#Post339159
Why i hate Religion but love Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

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#343310 - 10/27/10 06:42 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: nltsaved]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
smile

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#343311 - 10/27/10 06:47 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: prisonerID]
blaidd Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 240
Loc: Australia
Trying to bite my tongue... So I don't say something I will regret.

There is no excuse for vilifying gay people, no matter what you think the justification is.

_________________________
Blaidd (pronounced as blaith/blithe) is a welsh word meaning wolf.

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#343322 - 10/27/10 07:45 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: blaidd]
Tinman Offline


Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 359
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
Gonna be blunt here, and do not mean to belittle any of the heartfelt answers given in response to my original question. I honor and validate your desire to help me.

I may be understanding this a little better. There are Christians who will not condemn me for being gay. As long as I don't act on it. Of course, all of them are straight.

So, that means that I have to be OK with the idea there can never be someone special in my life. And please don't tell me I can fill it with friends. When was the last time you whispered your deepest darkest secrets to someone who was not dedicated to you and only you? When was the last time you could come home to these people after a hard day and just be looking for a kiss and a hug. Never happens!

So, I am to spend the rest of my days heartbroken because I cannot have someone in my life when what I am was not a choice? And, please, my straight brothers, don't say it's a choice. When did you look at it and say "Hmmm, Boys or girls?? Today, I think I will choose girls!" I am not talking about those who are sexually confused, but those of you who have always been straight. You didn't make that choice, so please do not tell me I did. The only ones who run around stating it is a choice are straight people. Excuse me, but when did they become mind-readers?

I am not saying where I am going with the things I mentioned earlier in the original post. It's just that my thoughts of the last paragraph are getting clearer.

Because I think I am leaning to the idea of a God who created me to live in loneliness may not be one I want to have anything to do with.


_________________________
Tinman
"I finally have my heart!"

To the perps: Don't worry about me coming after you. But you damn well better watch out for God! "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord

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#343325 - 10/27/10 08:05 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: Tinman]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Tinman,

I like your thoughts above. Something I have thought of often is that maybe, just maybe, the God some believe in isn't the same one I do. I have struggled at times trying to reconcile the two then it will dawn on me for the umpteenth time that I don't have to because I believe in a God that loves everyone regardless of race, creed, nationality, religion, culture, color, gender, or sexual identity.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#343327 - 10/27/10 08:25 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: WalkingSouth]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I found a lot of freedom when I began asking myself questions about my own beliefs. I have kept many but let some go by the wayside. Just because I was taught something does not mean it is correct.

I do not plan on spending my life alone. And I do not believe that I have to as a gay man. That is my belief system.

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#343384 - 10/28/10 06:55 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: prisonerID]
sono Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
Originally Posted By: tinman
There are Christians who will not condemn me for being gay. As long as I don't act on it. Of course, all of them are straight.


Tinman,

This is what I meant above. Why not align yourself with those who will "approve" of you as you are and not those who would have you fit in their box. For what's it worth consider the inordinate number of Christian men who talk about the evils of homosexual acts while meeting up with other guys at rest stops or airport bathrooms. I think there might have been a few Larry Craigs and Ted Haggards writing the bible...maybe even a few of them leading the very church you're speaking of here...just a thought.

Go enjoy yourself and have a life.


Kevin (non-religious straight guy)

_________________________
the family
the perp

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#343390 - 10/28/10 08:26 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: sono]
wayne9 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/14/08
Posts: 161
Loc: alabama
Tinman, I hope that you or know one else here thought that I was saying anything negative to you or about you. I was simply saying that I am in the same situation. I am just having a hard time dealing with it. The loneliness of spending the rest of my life alone because of what has been pounded into my head about whats right or wrong. I am not saying it is the truth.....just saying its hard to go against something I have been taught all my life.

Tim



Edited by wayne9 (10/28/10 08:27 AM)

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#343395 - 10/28/10 09:16 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: wayne9]
Tinman Offline


Registered: 05/30/08
Posts: 359
Loc: Lake Forest, CA
Tim,

Brother, my response here was not directed at anybody. Just a statement of where I am right now.

I think that everybody who responded did so out of compassion and caring. I cannot detect a single mean-spirited word in the responses.

_________________________
Tinman
"I finally have my heart!"

To the perps: Don't worry about me coming after you. But you damn well better watch out for God! "Vengeance is mine", saith the Lord

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#343397 - 10/28/10 10:06 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: wayne9]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: wayne9
I was raised in a Christian family. I have been taught all my life the gay lifestyle is sinful. I understand why this is taught. God created Adam…….he then created Eve that man would not be alone. He meant it to be this way. I understand that God did not intend for man to be with man or women to be with women. All this I know and understand………

It may be what you understand and believe, that doesn't make it either true or just. I do find it interesting considering the patriarchal nature of the society that the bible comes from and the consequently second class status of women that it is illustrated in this creation story. A traditional second class status that still persists in society *today* - women were created for men, their job is to help men, and do as men tell them.

What *I* know and understand is that women are equal to men, they have autonomy and can have a purpose for existence outside fulfilling the needs and desires of a man, and that stories encoding and requiring female subservience to men through their silence and obedience like those in the bible are outmoded and wrong.

If we can leave behind the now obviously unjust idea that women are second class and the property of men that was encoded in the bible, and move to this modern world where women are (ideally) treated as equals, why does anyone accept that anything else put forward by the bible is moral and cannot be challenged?

Quote:
Now for what I don’t understand…..

Where do I stand as far as God is concerned? I know that I am more attracted to men than women. I know that if all things were the same as far as God and society was concerned that I would probably be in a same sex relationship. These things I KNOW about myself. Others do not! Is it because of the CSA that I experienced during my childhood years (8-12 years old). Is it because something didn’t form in my brain the same way it does in a normal boys mind. Which every the case, I know the outcome of it. I’ve known it for 30-40 years.

How it is that you feel those attractions is immaterial. Even the discussion of it implies that there are "innocent victims" who didn't choose to be gay, and "guilty victims" who therefore did choose to be gay. Splitting that hair is bargaining to evade responsibility for a invented "choice" that we don't even make.

Quote:
I have asked God for help so many times but things remain the same. I sit in Church services and feel so much guilt for these thoughts and desires I have inside. The distress of knowing there are so many Christian friends sitting in the same service that have no idea about this part of my life and who would not understand seems to get worse as time goes on. Where do I get peace from all the turmoil inside……..

I think you already know some of your options. Change the minds and hearts of the people in the church you attend, change the church you attend, or change your beliefs. There are accepting churches out there, and there are ways to live a life with the divine but without religion.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#343465 - 10/28/10 10:56 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
DougL Offline


Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Bradford, PA USA
I never started going to church until I was 35. I was molested at 12 by a friend, then raped by an older man when I was 17. After struggling for years I started going to church. I started mentoring the troubled youth in my community several years later. I then became a youth pastor, and now a pastor. I am now 49. I wouldn't give up on God now and I know He won't give up on me.


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#343480 - 10/29/10 01:00 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: sono]
WalkingSouth Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16265
Originally Posted By: sono
(non-religious straight guy)

This might be a good place for one of my favorite quotes:


"Religion is for those who are trying to avoid hell. Spirituality is for those of us who've already been there."

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#343633 - 10/30/10 09:30 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
james 1959 Offline


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 287
Im nither straight, bi or gay in Gods eyes. Im me the way God made me and he loves me and he wants me to love him and love others and myself and i do.

Just love your self for who you are and thats all God wants from any body if others dnt like it thats their problem and not mine.

Love judges no one it accepts them for what they are through loving one another.

The greats Gift in this world is Love.



James



Edited by james 1959 (10/30/10 09:40 AM)
_________________________
We are brothers on a journey,and companions on the road
We are here to help each other share the burden and the Load

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#343809 - 11/01/10 02:24 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: james 1959]
james 1959 Offline


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 287
James



Edited by james 1959 (11/01/10 10:30 AM)
_________________________
We are brothers on a journey,and companions on the road
We are here to help each other share the burden and the Load

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#343951 - 11/02/10 02:39 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
Gamgee Offline


Registered: 10/24/10
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada
I'm straight. I'm a Christian. I'm a Buddhist. Being a Buddhist has helped me be a better Christian. Jesus is New Testament. He never said anything except to tell us to be kind and loving and non-judgmental. If you follow the Old Testament then look at the people God chose to be our examples, people who were ready to kill their own children, slept with their own daughters, murderers, were drunks, idolaters,you name it. You are not those things. You want to love another human being. Too bad more people didn't live that way. The books of the Bible were written by human beings, fallible human beings. I don't belong to any religion, I try to do what Jesus or the Buddha or Martin Luther King Jr. or other people I admire would do. And if I think I need to do something for me that doesn't hurt anyone else or myself, I do it. If you believe God created you, who is there on this Earth who has the authority to tell you not to live the life he gave you? I believe that whatever God is he created us to love our neighbours AS ourselves, not better or worse. If you would be kind and accepting of others (even the self-righteous a++holes who judge you) you certainly deserve to accept and love yourself and whoever else will love you in return. AMEN>


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#344160 - 11/04/10 10:32 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
DougL Offline


Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Bradford, PA USA
there is a really great site I have found that does a great job explaining about the Bible and homosexuality. It is the best article I have found so far.

No Hell For Gays


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#344410 - 11/07/10 10:50 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: DougL]
mrd Offline


Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 28
Tin
My brother this is how God has enlightened me and everyone's enlightenment is different, I believe so that we can share different view points with one another. Which if received in openness can educate us all. Not to bash one another because our views differ. Only I have walked in my journey so only I can respond to it the way I do, as survivors I think we get that.
I don't know what makes a person gay, straight, or whatever. I do believe that everything that happens from insemination forms what we are because of what we do, and no matter what society labels us we are all humans. I haven't met one non sinning prefect person yet. I have had epiphanies so great I had the delusion I was perfect and could tell people whats right and wrong. I also have a word for that Tripping! To me God's word is the Truth, it is contained in the Bible. Humans seem to interpret it to make it fit how they want to live instead of living what it states. The Bible say homosexuality is a sin, it states sex with any woman (anyone) not your wife is sin too!!! REGARDLESS. It says not to judge, that's smart to me because we don't know why we do some of the things we do let alone anyone else. Being under mothered by an alcoholic I'll say this. My mother could have done anything to me, put her fingers in my rectum had oral sex with me and \or any number of other things. This could cause me to be anything gay, bi, straight, crazy... As a human I feel we are on a journey to peel off the corrupt layers thrust upon us all in this life. If we share and listen to one another with openness and compassion the process is better. I'll close with this, while I'd like to have a loving relationship with a woman at the moment I don't. I have been sharing my journey with many since the taping of the Oprah show. On Friday a woman I've known, her and her husband, for many years heard my disclosure and we talked about it and something in her life. It was one of the most heartfelt conversations I've ever had. While we will not be having sex or huggin and a kissin it was one of the most close involvements with a human. The conversation ended to soon with I love yous. I know if at anytime I needed to talk or a hug I can get either from either of them because of our openness to one another. I'm finding everyday what I want I don't need, but whatever I want I can have its up to me. I want to make sure I make wise choices that are not just good for me but others as well. Thanks to Jesus paying for my sins on that cross, he covers the things I don't get right in God's eyes. God judges the heart and he knows how my mind has been twisted because of life. He is allowing me to balance my heart and mind towards him day by day. My journey is propelled by faith in Jesus despite what other say its my walk and I'm trying to do the next good thing

peace and love my brother
matt

_________________________
Ignorance is the most dangerous element in human society.

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#344443 - 11/07/10 08:22 PM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: mrd]
many_mees Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/23/09
Posts: 286
As far back as I can remember, I have always been attracted to boys when I was a boy and now men as a man. I searched for tons of years to reconcile my feelings and attractions to the Bible and the "Church" I belong to; all to no avail.

That is until I began searching the web and looking for the answer to this enigmatic problem. I'm attracted to men for whatever reason and I felt guilt about it because the Bible told me that homosexuality was a sin.

I eventually landed here at MS and discovered a world of men like myself honestly seeking to reconcile themselves over this very question. After awhole lot of reading from the posts and talking to other denominations within my faith, I came to the conclusion that I am Bi and that is how God made me "for his purposes".

By accepting that I am who and what I am, and by placing a label on it, I could finally settle it in my heart. I'm a Bisexual Male who loves men AND women and I could easily enjoy a relationship in either venue. So happens Im married to a wonderful, if naive woman who accepts me as I am.

With that, I began to explore the very question Tinman has posted. Can God love me for who I am? YES! He can and does.

So for now, the question is settled in my heart. God loves me and THAT is all that matters. I have accepted the free gift of salvation by His Son's blood on the cross and that is all that matters to God.

I like to leave you with a short phrase that has helped me hold to my faith in times when others choose to judge me.

"God looks at me through blood colored glasses, and all he sees is his creation in love with Him."

Tinman... I know you are searching for a difinitive answer and one may come and one may not. But until you have one, brother, allow God to love you as His creation. Not the creation of an unloving church.

Sambro


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#344456 - 11/08/10 03:33 AM Re: Christian and Gay? [Re: kb8715]
john38 Offline


Registered: 10/21/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Pasadena CA
Hey Tinman,

First let me say thanks for your honesty and for asking for help/not going through your challenges and feelings alone--hooray for you!

Second, I'm not Christian--although there are many N.Test. principles I try to incorporate into my spiritual act of living. Being multiple, I draw from a number of different perspectives with regards to spirituality as well as many other aspects/values/belief systems in my life.

I guess what I wanted to share is a bit about the homosexual part, and a bit about my perspective on spiritual love.

Every study I have read about male to male sexual abuse indicates that the experience does not make us gay. To be sure, it often creates sexual confusion, but it doesn't turn us gay unless that was already our inclination. The fact that some survivors experienced physical pleasure during the act can come from many places: focusing on the physical sensations of arousal to avoid the emotional pain/shame/fear/etc. Also, the physical attention, especially with molesters as opposed to violent rapists, is often the only attention that some young victims receive. As a result, people can think the experience made them gay. I have a number of male survivor friends who were molested by men and who thought they might be gay, but who ultimately discovered that they were straight and are now in committed heterosexual relationships. Of course, you're the only one who can say what your orientation is, but at least from my point of view, as well as every piece of writing I've read about the issue, if you believe you're gay, you had that orientation prior to your abuse. In other words, it's who you are.

A funny thing about us sexual abuse survivors is that we can find many different justifications to avoid intimacy with other human beings at both emotional and physical levels. That violation and breaking of trust that we experienced during our abuse makes it difficult for us to be intimate with others. That emotional breaking of trust and faith that we experienced as the result of our abuse can be a real heavy and difficult set of emotional responses to hang out with and bring love to. As a result, many survivors create avoidance mechanisms to avoid the real pain. It may be, and only you can say if this is true, that your religious stance about intimate other involvement with another man is about avoiding all the terrible feelings that exist within you that relate to intimacy and love with another person. I don't know if it's true, but it might be something to be curious about. As a number of the other responders have said, there are many takes on Christianity that don't consider homosexuality a sin. It might be fruitful to consider where your current relationship to Christianity comes from and why you believe that there is only one way to be Christian: not to be actively gay.

The last thing I want to share is that many of my Christian friends believe that God doesn't make mistakes. From their perspective, if a person is gay, that's the way God made them, and so they should celebrate who they are as a gift. As for me, my Maker is simple. My Maker gives me two gifts. The first is love (unconditional support, compassion, acceptance and understanding are aspects of this love). Regardless of what I'm experiencing, my Maker provides me with this gift and if my Maker loves me, I can love me. The second gift my Maker provides is creativity (the ability to make, unmake, and choose). Thus, there is no fixed situation in my life. Every aspect of me is fluid and subject to change and growth. This is how God/Maker/Creator/Higher Power is for me. I sincerely hope that you are able to step into your God's complete and unconditional love for every aspect of your being. It's a beautiful place to be. It's not lonely, it's full of support, and there are many beautiful people in the world who exist in this sort of relationship with their God. You deserve to be loved for exactly who you are.

Thanks again for opening your heart and letting the pain out. It's wonderful whenever a survivor can stand in their truth and confusion with humility and humbleness like you are doing. By surrendering this heavy load you are doing exactly what you need to do to take care of yourself and let love in. I believe that you'll find happiness, an end to isolation, and what ever it is you need as a consequence.

With Lots of Agape & A Big Safe Hug,
John+

_________________________
Just for today I will treat myself with respect, compassion and acceptance.

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