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#340789 - 09/25/10 01:51 PM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: westsidej]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Jay,

What is most important to me as an American Citizen is that all citizens have the same rights and responsibilities and are treated equally and with respect.

DADT fails at this most basic level.

Quote:
DADT keeps sexuality where it belongs, out of the foxhole, workcenters, ship, squadron or boot camp and in the private lives of military members of all sexual orientations.

Sexuality as an element of identity is *everywhere* in the military. There are men and women who are husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, fathers and mothers and don't have to lie or hide that part of their identity thats expressed through their relationships.

DADT fails to restrain straight people expressing their identity and there is *no punitive action* that results from that expression.

Quote:
Homosexuality's not the norm (less than 10% at best), just like BDSM dungeons, polyamory and swinging parties, in terms of sexuality but all of the aforementioned participants can serve in the military if they keep these aspects of their lives, rightly so, where it belongs, in private.

You've just reduced full, rich human beings who are gay to being abnormal and framed their whole lives and identities as being only about sex. You've also managed to ignore the fact that straight military personal are not required to hide their straight orientation, identity, and relationships as gay military personal are required to do under DADT.

Are these really the best arguments for why DADT is good and necessary? If so, then roll on repeal.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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#340794 - 09/25/10 03:43 PM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
I still see no reason for DADT to exist except to bend to the whims of those who choose their personal opinions over the rights of others.

I say that as a tax payer and not a gay man.

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#340797 - 09/25/10 04:22 PM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: prisonerID]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Minnesota
EFM, the military gets to discriminate, thank G-d, like it or not. If it didn't, you and I would be in shackles or even sent to concentration camps since Jews and gays shared the same fate.

In order to serve, you can't be too fat, too tall, too short, mentally ill, crippled, too old, blind, deaf or a host of other items that the military renders incompatible with service.

Sorry, that's just how it goes. The military's not a social experiment, it's there to fight and win wars. Nation build as well it seems but that's a discussion for another day. wink

To reiterate, DADT is a great compromise between both sides. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less so.

Exercise your right to privacy and keep your sexuality to yourself.

I really don't want to hear about the prostitute some guy banged in Thailand just as much as I don't want to hear about a sailor who screwed another guy that he met at the bar last night. Just like in sports, act like you've been in the endzone (no pun intended) before.

EFM & Prisoner ID, we agree on gays/bi's being allowed to serve in the military but just differ on how they, and heteros as well, need to keep their private life, such as it exists in the service, just that...private.

I'll take the fact that all of us, so far as I know, agree gays/bi's should be allowed to serve in the military as a good start.


Thank you for the differing opinions and for your replies.

Your brother.

Jay

_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#340801 - 09/25/10 05:54 PM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: westsidej]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
But those who are straight have the choice to excersise privacy. Those who are gay do not. That is the issue. It is called equality. And this is not an equal playing field. I don't want to hear either's sexual exploits served in front of me. But the one can at will with no problem.

That is inequality.



Edited by prisonerID (09/25/10 06:43 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling - as usual
_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#340804 - 09/25/10 06:52 PM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: westsidej]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 725
Loc: United States
Jay,
Originally Posted By: westsidej
EFM, the military gets to discriminate, thank G-d, like it or not. If it didn't, you and I would be in shackles or even sent to concentration camps since Jews and gays shared the same fate.

At the liberation of the German WWII concentration camps everyone was released except many gays who were transferred to other prisons. You'll have to pardon me for finding little joy and comfort in that. Are you sure you want to invoke Godwin's Law so early in our discussion?

Quote:
In order to serve, you can't be too fat, too tall, too short, mentally ill, crippled, too old, blind, deaf or a host of other items that the military renders incompatible with service.

DADT exists so that Gays and Lesbians can serve in the military, so the argument that they are somehow ineligible or that they are incompatible with serving in the military is completely without merit. Once again, the implication here is that there is something wrong with gay and lesbian service people.

Quote:
Sorry, that's just how it goes. The military's not a social experiment, it's there to fight and win wars.

I'm confused. Gays and lesbians live in the civilian world just fine. What is the social experiment you're referring to? The military is also not a place where religious views should hold sway, and yet soldiers are being punished for failing to attend mandatory Christian rock concerts with the goal of converting soldiers. The military is clearly not able to govern itself in accordance with the US Constitution.

Quote:
To reiterate, DADT is a great compromise between both sides. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less so.

DADT is discriminatory, unjust and unconstitutional. It's bad law, and bad policy. That's why I don't like it.

Quote:
Exercise your right to privacy and keep your sexuality to yourself.

Jay, do you have any concept of how homophobic, insulting, and ignorant this statement is? You're basically telling me to be silent, get back in the closet, and be fearful. Is that really your intent? And how does my "sexuality" offend you? Are you perhaps confusing sexuality with identity?

Straight couples can go anywhere they want holding hands and showing affection. Gay couples fear to hold hands in public because it could be the beginning of a hate crime. Straight couples "flaunt" their sexuality in public all the time. Why is that okay for them and not for me?

Quote:
EFM & Prisoner ID, we agree on gays/bi's being allowed to serve in the military but just differ on how they, and heteros as well, need to keep their private life, such as it exists in the service, just that...private.

When straight service people keep to the standards you're defining for gay service people, we can talk. Today service people talk about everything - their wives, husbands, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids, houses, extended family, and they also talk about sex. When you can control what all service people can talk about, this might be a worthwhile discussion. I don't see it happening.

Quote:
I'll take the fact that all of us, so far as I know, agree gays/bi's should be allowed to serve in the military as a good start.

Gays and lesbians are already allowed the serve in the military. That is not in dispute. It is the conditions and restrictions that they alone suffer under that are at issue.

Repealing DADT is about allowing the gay and lesbian service people that already serve to do so openly, just like their straight colleagues. That's seems to be where, inexplicably, we part company.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

Top
#340856 - 09/26/10 11:05 AM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 148
Loc: Minnesota
EFM & Prisoner ID

Thank you for the lively discussion. My involvement online ends here.

If you wish to continue this offline, please feel free to do so.

I know that most of us here can handle this type of charged discussion but there are some brothers who can't for whatever reason and that's okay.

Take care and have a great weekend.

Your brother,

Jay

_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#340858 - 09/26/10 11:10 AM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: westsidej]
prisonerID Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/08
Posts: 1247
Loc: Oklahoma
Jay -

Thanks, I hope you have a great weekend as well. I think soon I am going for a nice drive to enjoy the weather - it is in the seventies here. Rock on!!!


Later,

Daryl

_________________________
Broad statements often miss their true mark.

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#341500 - 10/05/10 09:10 PM Re: Repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell [Re: prisonerID]
JPaschal Offline


Registered: 10/05/10
Posts: 20
Loc: Seattle, WA
To a comment about the fact that a superior officer cannot date someone of a lower rank that is under their command, I want to point something out in the form of a question. Can a gay man or a lesbian date anyone of the same gender, in or out of their unit without being punished? That is not equality.

_________________________
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return." Moulin Rouge.

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