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#340162 - 09/13/10 01:22 PM Burning Korans + Building Mosques
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Is it just me or do these controversies seem ridiculous to others as well? First off, why is that moron in Florida who threatened to burn the Koran on Sept 11th getting the attention that he has been receiving? The Secretary of Defence called him personally about this for God’s sake. So we won’t negotiate with the Taliban but we will with him? I’m not saying that we should with either but it seems absurd to me that an obscure idiot like him is having the affect he is on American foreign policy. What’s even more ironic to me is how can he call himself a Christian while advocating the desecration of another monotheistic faith’s sacred text? Muslims, Christians and Jews are called “people of the book” for a reason, in that the Koran, Bible and Torah all recognize the same universal God and recognize each other going back to Abraham so to desecrate one text in the name of the other is an insult to any one of these faiths and to God in general in my opinion.

Second is to do with that “mosque” being built near Ground Zero in Manhattan. I put “mosque” in quotations since calling it that is a misnomer. Rather, it is meant to be a 13 story cultural centre, which includes a prayer room, but also will have work out equipment, a swimming pool, a daycare, and so on. Sounds like a threat to downtown New York to me. (Sorry for my sarcasm). Seriously though one thing that sticks out to do with this controversy is that its easily forgotten that people of many faiths lost their lives in those towers on September 11th, including a significant number of Muslim Americans. On that note where are the howls of protests about Christian church’s being in the vicinity of where Timothy McVeigh blew up that building in Oklahoma City? As an extremist with Christian beliefs he attacked America in the name of God after all. Anyways just food for thought. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340213 - 09/14/10 12:13 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Hmm. I hate to disabuse you JLS but we do negotiate with the Taliban on a regular basis. We pay off warlords/drug dealers who have been and will be again in the pay of the Taliban. We also pay them directly for safe passage of the trucks of supplies we drive over the Khyber Pass. Its all a house of cards set up by a thousand years of warlords/drug dealers being the power source in the region and us not confronting that central fact of life there.

The pastor in Florida started his crap originally about "not backing down any more to Islam." "I'm tired of us backing down" He was making up rhetoric to build a constituency of followers for his little church.

An Imam from a nearby Mosque came to him to talk since no one else was and he probably knows from experience where he comes from that one must engage crazy people and find out just how crazy they are and what they want or they start blowing things up or doing outrageous things that make others blow things up. So he went to speak to the nutter and somehow the whole thing became about the Community Center.

Personally I think he's just another Christian phony looking for ways to accumulate money and a power base to make even more money.

You can see by the drained fearful look on his face when he finally aquiessed to pleas to not burn the Koran, that he had no clue about the outside world until this went global. I'm guessing the idiot thought it would be just a local or maybe National thing. His personal fantasy bubble got popped and he was forced by his own stupidity to face the fact the he was stupid.

Why does this get play? IMO the Republican Party using Christianity as a political tool since the mid seventies. Slowly over this time more and more radical(original meaning of that word when used in America is CRAZY) ideas have been put forth because whne one uses emotion/religion to manipulate people one has to constantly up the provocation or it goes flat. It is very like drug abuse. You can see how far this has gone now in glen beck. Even twenty years ago he would have been banned and possibly arrested for the crap he says and does. It is nothing but harmful and hateful. Shouting fire in a theatre wold be less so than his evil. Yet here we are the just deserts of allowing it to happen.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340230 - 09/14/10 02:47 PM Re:"Idiots" Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
That preacher evidently is not a true Christian just as those who follow Phelps, those "christian" extremist seem to believe that Jesus was crazy if how they handle themselves reflects how they are doing "what Jesus would do". It says no where in the Bible to be a freak of nature.

Big note: The Qu`ran does not speak of the "same universal God" just like Mormons don't believe in the same Christian God, just like Catholics believe the "pope" is next to God (or that the first pope was really the easter bunny... Southpark, great episode)just like Tom Cruise believes alien spirits possess people. Huge differences!

The plan for a mosque in Ground Zero was a failed attempt at posing forgiveness. Like if anyone here forcefully had their abuser come back to live in their home, it's wrong. No, not all muslims are extremist but it should be respected and acknowledged that the extremist were in fact muslims and the symbol of allowing them to invade something sacred is not a sign of forgiveness. Just like it would be wrong allowing a church to be built where someone blew up an abortion clinic in "God's name". The Bible don't say to kill, those people just manufacture what they want to make themselves feel important and "righteous".

As for those who died in the buildings who were muslim, the Qu`ran says:

Al-‘Imrān (3): 3: Never think that those who are killed in the way of God are dead. They are alive, getting succour from their Lord. [6].
which extremist aka fundamentalist use to justify their deaths.

Burning a Qu`ran would have been a useless act to provoke misguided people and further the reinforcement of their beliefs towards "infidels". Someone could burn a Bible infront of me and it wouldn't bother me none. It's a freakin' book, God's bigger than a little book! Burn a Bible infront of a hillbilly who's never even opened a Bible and call themselves Christian, you might be looking to get shot. Stupid people are stupid people!

Also, The Bible says nothing about blowing up buildings to preach about God on the other hand parts of the Qu`ran are translated to provoke Jihad and to kill for Allah. Timothy McVeigh was not following any Christian beliefs, he was a knucklehead just like the others who define the Bible to say things that it plainly does not..... Hitler thought he was a Christian and nothing he did was of God. Just because he called himself one did not make him one.

Signing off.... dirka dirka, hezbolah, jihad jihad, dirka dirka, la la la la

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340251 - 09/14/10 11:27 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I like what you said about us not confronting the central fact of life in Afghanistan, with paying off warlords etc I mean and not recognizing them being the power source in the region, as you say. So many people equate the re-building of Iraq after Saddam with our efforts in Afghanistan but these examples couldn’t be more different. Iraq is a relatively modern state with a regular army and government institutions that can at least nominally administer state affairs, along with an educated class of people among the population to help all of this along. Afghanistan, however, possesses none of these things and never has. Its population is ethnically disparate, much of it nomadic, where power is consolidated not through political parties but via inter-marriage between the most dominant tribes. All of these ways go back centuries and I doubt this is going to change much despite our latest intervention, not to mention the Russians and the British before us, both of whom failed miserably. Another thing to consider is that the Taliban we are engaged with today is not the same as it was prior to 9/11 since Al Qaeda was the main organizer in Afghanistan back then, which took advantage of the country’s failed state status to further their own ends. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340283 - 09/15/10 05:49 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Big note: The Qu`ran does not speak of the "same universal God" just like Mormons don't believe in the same Christian God, just like Catholics believe the "pope" is next to God (or that the first pope was really the easter bunny... Southpark, great episode)just like Tom Cruise believes alien spirits possess people. Huge differences!

I don't know about the easter bunny but christians (of which mormons are counted), jews and muslims all worship the god of abraham.
Being mormon is similar to being a baptist or a snake handler. Its all forms of the same religion, christianity.

Tom Cruise?! I'll tell you this, the church of scientology broke into the FBI headquarters in Washington DC and removed the files the FBI had on them and got away without being prosecuted. Their founder was a child abuser according to his own son and the many who escaped his "navy" which was a ship he kept his cult followers trapped on before they found a compound in LA. He kept children locked in the chain locker if they objected to any maltreatment or complained. He was a phony from day one and the Navy gave him a dishonorable discharge. There is a book out by his son. Its kind of hard to find but it lays out old lron's life as a con artist from day one. Lron's personal mentor and hero (EDIT: When I say personal mentor I mean that literally. They were close personal friends lron being much younger.) was I can't think of his name at the moment, Oh yea here ya go; "By the early 20th century, Aleister Crowley (known as the black pope) was linked to Satanism. Although he called himself "the beast", used the words "life" "love" and "light" to describe Satan and once baptized and crucified a toad as Jesus, he was not a Satanist but a magician and occultist." This is the guy lron patterned himself on. Note the magician/occultist reference and compare that to the scientologist doctrine.



Edited by kidneythis (09/16/10 03:11 PM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340296 - 09/15/10 11:54 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
With Jews being the exception, the other Abrahamic faiths (Christianity and Islam) are triumphalist, meaning that they believe one’s eternal salvation can be achieved through conversion to one religion or another. In light of this I suppose it’s not surprising that there is resistance to the notion of finding common ground via worshiping the same universal God since this would take the steam out of such a competition for souls. From what I know about Judaism they aren’t much better as far as feeling superior goes. It’s just that they don’t bother with going about drumming up business like some Christian and Muslim sects do. Considering themselves God’s chosen people is enough I guess.

As much as I have issues with many world religions Scientology takes the cake for me. They aren’t even a religion in my opinion. Rather, I classify them as a cult that is all about exploiting its members for money in exchange for supposed influence in their “church”. It is essentially a big pyramid scheme, with celebrities at the top as it seems. Funnily enough on September 11th I saw a group of people on the street protesting Scientology’s abuses and all I could think was forget about burning the Koran. Let's torch Scientology founder L Ron Hubbard’s book “Dianetics” instead:) JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340327 - 09/16/10 06:08 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Warning***** This may/will sound super insensitive/offensive/ignorant******

Christians believe that Jesus was God, not "a" god. That God (Spirit, God the Father, God the Son) is love... which honestly I haven't much experienced personally for myself. There is nothing bad described about Jesus the son, or God the Father, in the Bible. The interpreters are the ones who screw things up to emphasize their personal views of what God says a lot of the time. Many things in the Bible are literal but people make them out to be offensive when it's just how things are, it's just plainly that sin is sin and nobody's perfect.

Mormons are not Christians except through their own say so, they do not believe what Christians believe and most of their faith comes from their own book not the Bible. They believe in getting their own planets when they die(abbreviated) and that people with ethnicity came from a cursed origin to fuel the fire(semi changed for acceptance in todays culture). Among a great many other beliefs that completely separate them from Christian doctrine.

Catholics (raised catholic, abused by priest) I will say are partial Christians or what I call "accidental Christians" because they have a lot of things right according to the Bible but they also fall victim to their faith being told to them by "the church" when they are not THEE "church"... They are pure religion and Christianity is not based upon religiosity, it is a relational aspect between God and man. There are some mentionable parts of Revelations that describe a "church" similar but most Catholics never read their own Bibles which leaves them susceptible to believe all their traditional things with out merit.

Jews worship the same Christian God but ignore the divinity of Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecies in the Torah. Because of their preconceived notion of what their savior was supposed to be in their eyes, they missed Him but God still has a place for them.

Might as well call out Jehovah's Witnesses, who I also deem as possible "accidental Christians". I myself wish I could get passed their beliefs so that I could be one of them. They don't believe in Hell which would be great, it's either heaven or you just stop existing. When I die I don't need to have eternal life, I don't request it, I just want things to be over.

Muslims believe in Allah, which might be an "alter ego" of the Christian God but it is not the same God. Their faith in Allah is taught through dominance, fear and forced conversion. When someone sees the need for them to kill for a god, the god is not big enough (Catholics, well... Europeans in general fell into that belief but in no place of the Bible was it commanded for them to do so, where as the Qu`ran does command it). Their books were written on rocks by Mohammad who dirka dirka, dirka di dirk i dirka la la la. I was attracted to Islam because of the self discipline and true following, my direction changed when I found what things were really in the Qu`ran which no real god would need people to do evil for righteousness sake.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340367 - 09/17/10 03:06 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
USMC,you are wrong. These are easily checked facts.

Mormons are christian. If that logic you used was valid then snake handlers, babtists, those morons who let their kids die for lack of medical treatment, talking in tongues, adventists, jehovah's witness's etc. would all be excluded. In fact any nonRoman Catholic who wanted to claim to be christian would not be a christian according to your logic. What about all the different versions of the bible? Who decides which one is "right"?
Which brings us to Catholics as christians. They are the original christians, a church founded by Peter himself. Your doctrinal assertions has no effect on that.
Muslims are also part of this family of religions. It was started based on the christian preachings that were coming into arabia at the time and judasim had been there for a while and may even have started there. They believe in the old testament and like all new sects they have their own text to provide the reasoning for the divergence from the original just like most christian sects have different bible's and different interpretations (dogmas that justify the difference) of the same bible.


Who is right? Who is good enough to be able to decide that?
That is rhetorical.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340390 - 09/18/10 01:23 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Check my facts, most of those you listed are excluded from actually being Christians, it's not "my" logic, it is in fact... FACT. By your logic anybody can just call themselves a Christian. There is nothing about handling snakes in the Bible, people who practice Santeria and Voodoo are not Christians just because they have little snippets out of the Bible. Yes even Jehovah's witnesses, except as I termed "by accident", because they are aiming at a target that is not backed up by the Bible.

Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers, that God is one of many gods, that God was once a man, that they too can achieve becoming the God of their own planet. This is explained in their "doctrine and covenants", referred to as the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial Kingdoms. They are taught that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was correct in that they can become like God. They believe that they must place there trust in Joseph Smith, not Jesus. Joseph Smith also boast to claim that he did more that Jesus. Smith the prophet claimed to be told that there where "Quaker" looking people who reside on the moon 6ft tall who lived up to 1000 years old, Brigham Young later claimed that the sun was inhabited. Smith prophesied that a "New Jerusalem" was to be built in western Missouri during his generation. This IS their beliefs and history, sorry if you think I'm making it up but ask one and they can't deny it.... they can only make excuses for these things. To say that they are not Christians may seem offensive but it's the truth. The book of mormon in it's totality contradicts the Bible. They believe in what they believe which is why they ARE Mormons. If they are correct in their faith then all the power to them. I am not mormon and don't plan for an afterlife under their belief system, should I be called a Mormon? It's not the same God.

There were Christians way before the Catholics formed so they ARE NOT the "original Christians", they were born from a split of the western church in Rome. God's church collectively was founded by Jesus not Simon Peter, Peter (debatable that he was the rock mentioned in Matt 16:13-18) was not given the status as head of "the church" or the first bishop or "Pope" by Jesus though that is what Catholics are taught. The title of "Pope" did not even come into play until 300years after Peter along with the Monarchical practices. Catholics throughout the centuries thrived on power, corruption and manipulation, a very similar "church" is described in Revelations which they do not teach. They have protected themselves by destroying and hiding anything that they deemed heretical or threatening to what they wanted the world to believe. They continue to this day following the same protocols. Because of their existence does not mean that what they practice is completely God's intended "church".

Muslims are a religion but they are not a Christian faith, call a Muslim a Christian and see how accepting they respond. They believe Jesus as only a prophet among many. The Qu`ran teaches things contrary to what the Bible teaches even with the inclusion of the Torah. None of the Torah says to kill your enemies for God. God to them is a dictator which is what they model after.

Not everyone believes in the same "universal God", my God is not the same as Ra, Zeus, Vishnu, Allah or others. He is not a female or gender neutral. He is what the Bible speaks of whether I like it or not because the Bible has been the only thing that has not shown HUMAN flaws in it's creation. Do my beliefs make me "saved"? I leave that up to God because I don't much care, where I end up is where I was always going to go anyway. I have a hard enough time trying to find my way passed all the crap taught to me by the priest.

Again, Check my facts.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340404 - 09/18/10 11:45 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Excluded by whom?
If I said you were making anything up, I'm sure there was a point to it. You did make up that I said a muslim was a christian.
You are including here your "beliefs" rather than the historical fact. Your beliefs, USMC, do not decide who is in what religion.

There were as many sects of christianity as there were cities and churches in those cities until 325 AD when Constantine ordered the Council of Nicene to establish a unified dogma for the christian faith. This was clearly so he could unify the empire under the one faith. As the previous emperors had kept control via religion using multiple gods, who had many varied dogmas for the same god in different areas of the empire, he saw the possibility of power centered in one god and one dogma.
As always it was about power.

I think you have no clue at all of how the bible was made. It started in Nicene, Turkey. You've heard of the Nicene Creed?
That was written as a way to express the unity of the many faiths of the christian church and to bring them together, in the 4th century when the "christians" from all over the mediteranean world came together under orders from Constantine, and they wrote the first bible.
The bible you point to as arbitor of all that is right, is a third plus, generation decendant of the bible written by that council committee of men trying to unify all the many variations of christian faith that had spung up in the 325 years since jesus death. They deleted many practices and beliefs for their own reasons. Reasons that sound very similar to your declarations of certainty in what you believe.
And the same is true of the bible you have today. It was edited and added to to suit whomever it was that was writing it at the time.

You are arguing with me from a position of faith which is based on the magical beliefs of whomever wrote the book you are using to justify that faith. I am speaking from a position of historical fact.
The tree of eastern Mediterranean religion goes from, multitheism, to judaism, to christianity, to Islam. All from the same geographic place and based on the same god. To dilineate the many many versions of christianity into who is real and who isn't would be dishonest since they all start from similar points in space and latch onto snippets of whatever gospel or legend they want to to distinguish themselves from everyone else so they can feel superior to others by saying "you aren't worshiping the "real" god like we are".
This is and has always been the way of religion. That is why political types latch onto it as a way to gain power. It is as reliable a human characteristic as there ever was or will be. Only reason overcomes it and with so many working so hard to prevent reason from being learned it will be a long time yet before mankind finally overcomes this evil habit of believing the unbelievable and using that lack, as justification for vilifying their fellow man and committing high crimes and misdemenanors against him.

Look at the idiot wanting to burn the koran. He was just trying to whip up hate against islam so he could gain the power that those who bought into his crap gave him. it started with "I'm tired of backing down" to something nonspecific about the community center in Manhatten. He doesn't care what he says or how it affects anyone he just wants those angry self righteous "believer's" to show up at his church and donate money to him. He backed off when his amazing stupidity created a situation he couldn't control. Which is inevitable with all power seekers using religion to gain illegitimate power.



Edited by kidneythis (09/18/10 11:46 AM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340421 - 09/18/10 04:08 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
That just brings me back to my point, the preacher is not a true Christian. Just because he has a church, has followers, just because he uses a bible... none of that makes him something that he is not.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340435 - 09/18/10 07:23 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
You are again using dogma to make an argument that I thought we were having which was about historical progression/development of mass religious culture in the mediterranean. I wasn't, am not arguing about who's dogma is right. I don't care about that.

True christian? who gets to decide that?
All people who claim to be christian use the bible. Just because you don't think they are doing it right, doesn't make them not a christian. If they read the bible and are acting on what they understand they are christian.
That is the basis of all religious conflict, one person deciding another person is "not doing it right".

Your argument is essentially the same argument the pope and his followers had for not allowing the bible to be printed in native languages back in the middle ages. If the people can read it for themselves they will do as they see fit not as the pope says. And that is exactly what happened. in short order and it hasn't stopped to this day, new christian sects keep springing up with a "new" interpretation of what the bible "really" means.

It doesn't mean he was right or wrong in wanting to maintain control. It only proves out his fear of, to use a word that didn't exist then, the Balkanization of the christian faith. Of course this also meant he would lose the power and stability, that Constantine saw was possible and the papacy had mostly achieved, with a single unified religion. Until that happened the papacy was able to weild power over all the christian nations and influence what they did.
After the bible was printed in native languages and people could read it for themselves and decide what it meant to them they steadily lost that power right up to this day. Even with the massive power and wealth they have today it is a mere shadow of what it once was.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340436 - 09/18/10 07:40 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Originally Posted By: jls
I like what you said about us not confronting the central fact of life in Afghanistan, with paying off warlords etc I mean and not recognizing them being the power source in the region, as you say. So many people equate the re-building of Iraq after Saddam with our efforts in Afghanistan but these examples couldn’t be more different. Iraq is a relatively modern state with a regular army and government institutions that can at least nominally administer state affairs, along with an educated class of people among the population to help all of this along. Afghanistan, however, possesses none of these things and never has. Its population is ethnically disparate, much of it nomadic, where power is consolidated not through political parties but via inter-marriage between the most dominant tribes. All of these ways go back centuries and I doubt this is going to change much despite our latest intervention, not to mention the Russians and the British before us, both of whom failed miserably. Another thing to consider is that the Taliban we are engaged with today is not the same as it was prior to 9/11 since Al Qaeda was the main organizer in Afghanistan back then, which took advantage of the country’s failed state status to further their own ends. JS


I'm quoting you to bring this back to your original intent with the OP.

I did not intend to hijack your thread with my discussion with USMC97 about he divergence of christian faiths and the relationship between judaism, christianity and islam.

The guy wanting to burn the koran was an idiot. The problem in afganistan is the problem of civilizing a nation run by drug gangs who have existed for centuries in some cases.

I do not think demeaning their religion is helpful to the problem. I do think our government needs to face the fact that we have to impose civil society on them and teach them how to live in a civil society. The people have lost that knowledge and this wildness and cheapness of life seems normal to them.

The sad part os that we wasted all that time and money in Iraq which would have been better used in Afganistan. We have a decade of work at least in front of us if we want them to become a proper stable nation.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340457 - 09/19/10 05:36 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
The discourse between you and USMC97 was great! I wish more people could argue about religion so respectfully:)

You’re right that demeaning one faith in the name of another is a fallacy. However, I don't agree with you that imposing civil society will work everywhere. There are some places in the world that simply don't conform to capitalism and industrialization, Afghanistan being one of them. When you mention being there only a decade or so longer I am hopeful. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340467 - 09/19/10 11:06 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Everywhere conforms to development and peace. It is the drug gangs that make afganistan seem like it cannot be made safe. haey have a thousand years or more of manipulating people using early life infliction of trauma to break them so that very few of them have a spine when they grow up. Those who do grow up with a spine are recruited, killed for not wanting to be recruited, or keep quiet to avoid either fate.

No group of human beings will live that way when a better life is available unless the poorer life is imposed on them. Afgans are not aliens they are people just like you and I with less education and a life filled with terror and trauma crippling them and preventing them from haveing time to think rationally and make rational decisions. In fact they probably aren't even aware of what rational thought is. Many still believe in magic.

One either acts as the drug gang/warlords have laid out a persons life should go or one is marked for further trauma, abuse, violence or death. No independent thought is tolerated. That is why it is so hard to bring safety to these people. It is a nation of abuse victims who don't even know they are abuse victims. Pride precludes them from admitting this and will leave them stripped of their dignity if they don't also have the sophistication (something knowledge brings) to understand that the things they did that would undermine their dignity are/were out of their control. They did the best they could with what they have. And that is not enough for a lot of people. Many think those words hollow. I was included among that group until very recently. I did not understand the truth of the statement that "we are all doing our best".

So the blockage to civilizing the place isn't some un-nameable special thing that Afgans have it is easily named, hard to address, and even harder to get past prejudice like you expressed which has been attached to these poor people for centuries.

If you look at it what is being done to those people is not unlike what happened in the projects and inner cities all over America when crack cocaine hit. There are still areas where drug gangs hold sway here using the same trauma based terrorizing tactics scum have always used.

The effects of trauma and fear are well known and reliable responses. Only knowledge and rationality can defeat this, that requires education. Why do you think they are so against women being educated? Notonly does it free their minds they pass it on to their sons who might grow up to fight back.
Getting past trauma is why we are here on MS, to gain the rational knowledge to be able to overcome our trauma.
It is no different for Afgans. Trauma no matter what the cause has the same effects on all people.



Edited by kidneythis (09/19/10 11:11 AM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340483 - 09/19/10 06:20 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
A "true Christian" is denoted by the Bible itself just as the Qu`ran dictates what a Muslim is. These books are not menus for God or a god to be conformed to what a person wants them to be.

If it were as you say and there were no distinction, it would be like having anyone who owned a gun call themselves a law abiding citizen or better yet call themselves a cop. There is a responsibility toward the truth of what you believe and to others who may be influenced by you, especially those who rise up as leaders. If someone says they believe something and do not follow the very basics of what they lay claim to then they are a fraud.

That preacher did not hear from the Bible to even threaten to burn a Qu`ran. He is a fanatic who has more desire toward his own needs of feeling important.

David Koresh - used a Bible, not a Christian

Fred Phelps - uses a Bible, not a Christian

Benny Hinn - not a Christian but a manipulating con artist

Obama - claims to be a Christian, not a Christian

Mormons - Carry Bibles along side the Book of Mormon, not Christian

Joel Olsteen has a "megachurch" uses the Bible, not a Christian but a glorified inspirational speaker

The priest who harmed me - he lead many people by use of the Bible and tradition, listed as a martyr by the Catholic church, was not a true Christian

The standards I speak of are not my own, they are the Bible's standards, God's word if one so claims to believe. It just so happens that people who are not true Christians skip all of the verses that describe exactly who they are according to the Bible.

When someone goes against the things they claim to believe with pure intent then they can not truly be what they say they are. Those who call themselves Christians are to give effort to fight against sin in there life whether it is always present or they are healed from them, not to intently do wrong.

They are not true Christians just as a Muslim who eats bacon is not a real Muslim. That is not dogma it is in following what someone claims to believe. The act of picking and choosing completely takes away from anyone saying that they have faith.

I do not have faith that is acceptable, I'm not going to say that I am a Christian just like I will not say that I am a "survivor". I will not know until my end... heaven, hell, planet, desolation, grace, wrath, or 77 virgins of which I wouldn't know what to do with. I believe the Bible says as it says just as the Qu`ran says it's own piece. Everything to me is pretty much hearsay until God, Shiva, Crab people, Aliens or whoever show up when I die. I'm just betting on it being Christianity where God will set it straight, even Billy Graham has some things wrong. The "Pope" and the whole idea of the papacy will surely be pointed out.

The Bible never told Catholics to be self preserving in their actions with any aspect, middle ages or present day. If anything has happened in order to attain more power then it probably is by their own doing and not Gods. It was not Biblical for the Constantine or Catholics to do what they have done, those were not acts of "Christians" but of selfish man.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340490 - 09/19/10 08:08 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
WHo gets to decide USMC97? Who's bible is the "real" bible? You say what Constamtine did was wrong but he gave you the ancestor of whatever bible you read.
Christianity after Jesus was a disparate multifaceted thing with as many churches as there were cities and people who had set beliefs. There were literally hundreds of thousands of different churches all claiming to be followers of Jesus.
The unity you allude to when you say the bible tells me so is what Constantine gave you. He wasn't the only impetus he just took advantage of something that was happening anyway.
All of the priests and religious leaders who came to Nicene were going to do something of the same thing anyway. There were to many differences and it was causing strife and worse. The came together to set the rules you might say, for all Christians.

So who is it that gets to say who is a Christian or not? The bible you point to was written by the priests at Nicene and re-edited in the middle ages. You say Constantibne was wrong then doesn't that make the bible wrong?

You see it isn't so easy. Anyone can pick anything from the literature and turn it into a sect and that would be legitimate as that is how the church (not a unified entity) was for those 325 years after Jesus died.

BTW Jesus words were never recorded when he was alive. It was decades later when people started to write down what they say they remembered. Most of this was lost. The bible was written by the priests at Nicene based on the writings of men who were making third or fourth hand copies of stories that were told.

It isn't as certain a thing as you want it to be.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340496 - 09/19/10 08:53 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You seem to believe that everything derived from the Catholic "church" and has since just been manipulated. Translations are not taken from one version turning them into another, they are made by looking a the same original writings of Hebrew and Greek, I believe the Catholics translated theirs from Latin writings. Priests did not write all, the Catholic Bible isn't even the same because they have it so it reads to benefit their cause.

The Nicene Creed is meaningless to me as well as all of the traditional Catholic customs, most of which I had to perform while being abused. The Nicene Creed is not in the Bible just like praying to Mary is not in the Bible.

Like I said before, God gets to say who is Christian or not.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340547 - 09/20/10 09:44 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
When I say priests to describe the men at Nicene they are not catholic priests the catholic church didn't exist yet. That is the name I have given to the men who were deemed leading christians at the time. This meant mainly the wealthy and royalty or those chosen by royalty. That is the origin of the christioan church's we know today. The men who wrote othe bibles as you say refered to original documents which many never had access to and relied on others writings, were also men chosen by whomever was in power at the time, or they were men in revolt from whatever form of the church was local to them.
BTW almost everything was written in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. Greek because they were the first, Latin because the Roman Empire was in existence and that was the universal language of the Empire, and Hebrew because the Jews keep their language as part of their religion.
There are some other languages used as well and the men putting together the unified view of the church had thew knowledge amoing them to read and write in all the languages.

I'm not saying that everything came from the catholics though they were the end result of Nicene, eventually. The main thing that came from it was a unified idea of what christianity was. There was great disturbance happening with the different groups doing all sorts of things in jesus name that many disapproved of. The people who thought his talk of love meant sexual love and had orgies as mass, and many others who were from that end of the spectrum to the other. This was a political problem of how to control so many people who may not have been doing anything wrong, but doing what they were doing was upsetting the populace and often the power in charge personally did not approve.

What I'm trying to get across in our discussion, is that no man can say whether or not another is a christian except as a personal opinion. A man cannot legitimately deny anothers claim of being a christian or force a test of his christianity upon him because christianity is practically, whatever one wants it to be, the only requirement being that one accepts Jesus word and the example of his life. All the rest is something developed by man to maintain control over the believers.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340554 - 09/21/10 01:46 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
The source of your history is biased by something which is making it only partially correct, I can't decipher all that for you.

In response to the rest is that there is nothing that backs your "opinion" except for universalism. Where it is that nobody wants to offend anyone and everything is supposed to be tolerated and accepted. All things are up for personal interpretation.... nothing good has ever come from that.

I am biased in hearing indirectly that you are defending evil people, manipulators, predators, those like my perp(s). If everything was up to what people want to believe and have accepted then it would be a perfect world, right? No judging or having standards would make it so that everyone is forcibly accepted. Christianity is not based on AA where it would be "the God of your understanding".

I'm not saying anything that would be different for any other respective faiths. Through this whole thing Christianity has become the faith that has/needs adjustable standards. Something about what I have said is threatening to you in saying that there is a "cutoff" for those who are really Christians. The Bible says that there is but you believe that the translations are either faulty or too offensive to be right.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340558 - 09/21/10 10:52 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I think maybe you aren't getting what I'm saying USMC. I do not care about any of it, this is purely academic to me. I am an atheist, we are discussing the history of belief in magic as far as I am concerned.
It goes like this; the christian religion was a sect of judaism to start based on jesus belief that one did not have to be born a jew to be a jew or participate in temple life. He wanted to include the good gentiles he knew. They used the Torah, which most would have been familiar with, if they used any text at all. This was renamed the "old testament" to which the words of people who wrote starting over a century after jesus died, (it was at this time that christianity started to firmly separate out from judaism as a religion on its own.) were added as it suited whomever was in charge of the writing at the time. This is the "new testament".

In the end the translations you speak of are of what exactly?

The best anyone has been able to prove is that the oldest writings based on jesus life were made over 100 years after his death. The council of Nicene was formed 225 years after that because they had then, what we have today which is thousands of sects all calling themselves christians based on the same man and what was being said about him and what he "really" meant. As if anyone could possibly have known anything but the most general of facts. Reagan was here only 30 years ago and we can't agree on what he said or did and we have recordings of it all!

As for acceptance and not acceptance this seems to be your boundary not mine. Like a lot of wounded people you need to have something certain to cling to. I am guilty of this as well but I try to make those things factual not faith based.

To find offense at your abusers being included in the title christian is the same as finding offense at them being included under the title human. Being a part of the same whole, does not imply acceptance of their actions. As for it being up to whatever anyone wanted to believe making it a perfect world how do you explain your not allowing certain people to be included in "your" group? that would be imperfect would it not? You are not the only exclusivist in any religion or just regular group of man.

I am not threatened by any cutoff I simply pointed out that you claim one standard and another man may claim another standard, who is the one that decides the legitimate standard?
That my friend is the whole of every single religious argument that has ever taken place.
Just because you strongly believe your beliefs, doesn't make them right or better than anyone else calling themself christian who you think isn't.
I am not saying this to include or defend anyone. I am saying this as a matter of fact and logic. Your going to the point of saying everything is universal acceptance and claiming I am defending evil people and predatirs etc. is to me the same as people who claim that allowing homosexuals to marry would lead to beastiality being the next thing to be included in marraige law. How or why anyone would jump to something so random and unconnected is beyond me.
We are discussing christianity and the differeing sects of it, not perverts et al. What you are saying is that only those who believe as you, are allowed in, and all others are out. That is not christian on the face of it.

Jesus story and the things that come down to us as his preachings are entirely based on acceptance and inclusion. That is the only commonality to the bible stories based on jesus that I've heard. All the rest of the stories and rules seem to suit the cultural/personal desires of the writer, the writer's sponsor, or the ethnic group it originates from.
Your insistence on bible adherence would allow for slavery, the selling of children, pedophilia (mariage of girls as young as 8) stoning for adultery, execution for theft or limb severing, and all sorts of other things we generally acknowledge as crimes harmful to man and society today.
Since these things are generally seen as wrong now what else may be seen as wrong in future? Does man get to adopt what parts of the bible suit him or not? Must we do these things generally agreed to as wrong now because they are in there or not?
It just is not as simple as reading and following the "bible" as you say it is.

One does not have to be religious to be good.
In my experience the more religious a person is, the more evil they do in my life. That is my direct experience of religious people.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340573 - 09/21/10 01:11 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
ONE. I am not "religious"!

TWO. I am generally trying to get across to you that people who are Christians can not expect to get 77 virgins, Muslims can't expect to get their own planet, atheist can't expect to see God, Mormons can't expect to see heaven, Jehovah's Witnesses can't expect to be reincarnated as a butterfly, etc etc. It is not what they believe so what logic in the end would have them receive what they don't believe? If you would read all of these "religious" materials you would find that every single one of them have standards. You have chosen Atheism which in itself has standards to be it's own kind of "religion".

Breaking it down "Barney style"...... People cannot expect to end up on a winning team if they didn't want to make their choice to play during the regular season.

True, one DOES NOT have to be religious to be good. Generally, one does have to be a Christian to see heaven just as one has to be Muslim to get their virgins, etc... that is what THEIR faith sees as a means to an end here on earth. People get to see who's right or wrong when they die.


THREE. Your "facts" are tainted and are not from an unbiased source. Even your basic understanding of Jews, gentiles, and Jesus is curved by your sources and is not factual. There are historical references in the Bible. You are taking things and flipping them to say that the deviated cultural aspects where commanded or condoned by God which is incorrect. You don't even see the whole point between the New and Old Testament so you are commenting on things which you don't appreciate from the beginning. What you think you know is faulty from the start and lacks the context needed to make it actual "logic".

FOUR. There is no proof or logic that even one of my perps could be Christian including the priest. Their actions are not evident of anything other than evil. One of them would have to come forward and accept the consequences in order to show any sign of being a Christian.... that is logic by rule of what Christianity is at it's very simplest form. Your position is that as long as they believe inside that they are Christian then who is anyone to say different, which is completely wrong.

The Bible to you is faulty but you do not need to throw in your assumptions of what is believed by people who you only seem to "academically" understand. Faith is not logical, that is why it is called "faith". I have a small amount of faith that when I die God will simply either point to heaven or hell for me, I can accept either destination, I don't do anything special to try and up my chances.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340632 - 09/22/10 12:16 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
TWO. I am generally trying to get across to you that people who are Christians can not expect to get 77 virgins, Muslims can't expect to get their own planet, atheist can't expect to see God, Mormons can't expect to see heaven, Jehovah's Witnesses can't expect to be reincarnated as a butterfly, etc etc. It is not what they believe so what logic in the end would have them receive what they don't believe? If you would read all of these "religious" materials you would find that every single one of them have standards. You have chosen Atheism which in itself has standards to be it's own kind of "religion"

This just proves my point, as all of your posts do. You believe one thing and someone else believes another. You claim the better more true belief and base this on "the bible". In any case no one who knows or could know what happens after death is alive to tell us.

Besides any choice of point of view/belief system being subjective the fact is that "the bible" is not a documentary piece of work, or a factual relaying of anything. The bible is equal to say Dianetics or some other founding religious document.
It is the words of people who have an agenda using some facts, contemporary conservative moral culture, and their imagination to relay what they imagine and want others to know and believe.
That is the fact of it. The proven undeniable fact.

There is no rule to being an atheist except that one not believe their is a god.
Religion/god has more to do with human insecurity and feeling powerless than it does with anything else. One does not impose or require anything of those one loves. So immediatly the whole god thing is destroyed since he cannot love us if he issues regulations for reciept of that love. That love is conditional is another of the cultural conceptions contemporary to jesus and those long before and after him. It is only in modern times that we come to realize the fallacy of that concept.
So does god get a pass because its in the bible? I think not. Just like we don't sell our women as possessions and do all sorts of other hideous and evil things touted in the bible as right. Today we do not accept conditions on being loved by anyone. That, allowing ourselves to be forced to do things for love to be given us, is the behavior of someone abused and lacking self esteem not someone healthy and accepting of love from another.

I don't mean to take apart your faith, I started this discussion as a way of pointing out that your perception of what is true religion that will get you into heaven is not as certain as you think it is. Others are just as certain of thier beliefs and just as honorable.
So the question still stands how does one decide between them? My Answer: However it is one decides what is ones choice, one does not have the right to depict others as being evil or wrong for having a differing belief.
Dealing with radical hatefilled speech disguised in religious garb, that is meant to and succeeds in winding up people to do bad things isn't the same as talking about another religion or sect of ones own religion. Even if one denies there are other sects of ones own religion or only includes some of those sects and excludes others. You can surely see by now that this is a personal choice based on personal belief and including/excluding others who misuse the faith of the ignorant, isn't the same as saying someone elses religion isn't valid or they aren't really one of them. One does not impose ones personal belief on others, ever.
You can only validly point to another's actions. Hence the adage; "you shall know them by what they do". You see you never have to engage in a discussion of things personal or debate the validity of a faith when dealing with issues. One only ever has to point to actions to see the truth of another.
Saying this or that isn't the right belief is pointless as its a personal choice based on unknowable inner dimensions. Actions are the only proof of anything.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340639 - 09/22/10 01:41 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
JustSurviving Offline


Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 47
Loc: Hell
Originally Posted By: kidneythis

In any case no one who... could know what happens after death is alive to tell us.
I was dead for over an hour when I was 10 from a severe beating by my father involving head injuries and a collapsed lung. I've seen after death.


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#340645 - 09/22/10 03:36 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: JustSurviving]
EvanCan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 170
What was it like for you, JustSurviving?
My neighbor (who also was "dead" but "revived") described an incredible peace, almost fluid. I would love to hear what your experience was like. Can you remember it?

(I am sorrowful, however, for the event that took you to that place.)

_________________________
Hope Springs 2010 WoR Alumnus
"I'm here, and I'm on the mend."


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#340650 - 09/22/10 05:09 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I gave recognition as to what other faiths believe according to the references that THEY follow after. I have chosen what I believe in spite of my first introduction to faith. I was killed/murdered multiple times and I couldn't tell you anything about any experience except the momentary feeling that the abuse was finally over only to have my perps medically revive me and continue their assaults.

According to you, anyone who has any kind of faith is weak in mind, manipulated, and insecure.... that there is offensive and belittling to anybody. You would deny that it takes just as much faith to believe that there is not any kind of god because you have convinced yourself of the things you need to believe in order for you be empowered. You have faith too, you have been exercising it through out.

You are faulty in your understandings just from the small things you've thrown in here and there. The invalid statements that you hold to without evidence. For example you have read sections of the Bible to support what you said. You stated
Quote:
Just like we don't sell our women as possessions and do all sorts of other hideous and evil things touted in the bible as right.
The Bible does not say that those things are "right" or commanded by God. That is your failed personal interpretation to help reinforce the falsehoods you want to believe about things of the Bible, you need to own your bias. You really should evaluate how you can objectively look at what is true and what is made up to protect yourself. The only "proven undeniable facts" are those that you possess for your own needs.

The Bible continues to be proven accurate concerning historical evidence, the only arguments are of things concerning the existence of Jesus and His deity. It's more comparable to a history text book than your claim of fallacy. Your atheistic views would discount every part of truth it carries just based on your principles. I've been atheist and have studied faiths to know what is and what isn't for my own knowledge so that I wasn't just ignorant and dismissive without reason. My conclusions have come from things that are not fabricated, you would say that it all is just to keep to your stance.

Atheist have more rules than you recognize in order to carry that title, one of them is deny anything that may hold opposition nomatter what the evidence. What I believe is completely based on evidence and not by someone else's words, that there separates me from being a follower of blind faith and manipulation. That is the fact of it.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340667 - 09/22/10 10:55 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I am not questioning your belief's. I am simply pointingout that the certainty you have about them is not so certain.

We have gone all over the place and I'm done. You never address the same thing twice nor do you respond to anything I say directly. I can't get anywhere with you. And that is part of the point I am trying to make with you.
I do not deny "anything that may hold opposition" whatever that means.
Your faith is your faith, and faith is; "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" The definition itself proves my point that your certainty is no certainty at all. It is only your irrational belief in something for which there is no proof. How can you possibly pass judgment on anyone based on that?

It's been engaging I wish you well but I'm done here this isn't going anywhere and I don't know how to make it become productive.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340914 - 09/27/10 09:16 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: EvanCan]
JustSurviving Offline


Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 47
Loc: Hell
Originally Posted By: EvanCan
What was it like for you, JustSurviving?
My neighbor (who also was "dead" but "revived") described an incredible peace, almost fluid. I would love to hear what your experience was like. Can you remember it?

(I am sorrowful, however, for the event that took you to that place.)
I remember it vividly. I remember pain then suddenly the pain started to fade. At that point, I remember the physicians in the ER scrambling around and a nurse grabbing my head and looking straight into my eyes. Then all the pain stopped. Then there was nothing. No dead ancestors, no savior holding me, no light, no peace, no floating above my body looking down... just nothing. I was aware of the nothing, but that was all it was. Then pain again... apparently after an hour of being dead. They "worked" on me for about 45 minutes but then pronounced me dead. I "came back" about 20 minutes later "on my own" with a tube down my throat... No vital signs or heart activity at all during that 60+ minutes. Just dead.


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#341022 - 09/28/10 02:44 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: JustSurviving]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I saw this today and thought I should post it here. I think I felt a little disdain for me and my atheism.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-religion-survey-20100928,0,3225238.story

The thing that did it for me was the threat of never ending pain if I didn't do as I was told.
I'm not sorry at all to point out that this is ABUSE exactly the abuse I had already endured and went on to endure for many years after that realization.
If god were real he would not use abuse to get us to do his bidding. Why would he need us to anyway?

Read the article it explains a little why so many don't even think that far.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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