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#340558 - 09/21/10 10:52 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I think maybe you aren't getting what I'm saying USMC. I do not care about any of it, this is purely academic to me. I am an atheist, we are discussing the history of belief in magic as far as I am concerned.
It goes like this; the christian religion was a sect of judaism to start based on jesus belief that one did not have to be born a jew to be a jew or participate in temple life. He wanted to include the good gentiles he knew. They used the Torah, which most would have been familiar with, if they used any text at all. This was renamed the "old testament" to which the words of people who wrote starting over a century after jesus died, (it was at this time that christianity started to firmly separate out from judaism as a religion on its own.) were added as it suited whomever was in charge of the writing at the time. This is the "new testament".

In the end the translations you speak of are of what exactly?

The best anyone has been able to prove is that the oldest writings based on jesus life were made over 100 years after his death. The council of Nicene was formed 225 years after that because they had then, what we have today which is thousands of sects all calling themselves christians based on the same man and what was being said about him and what he "really" meant. As if anyone could possibly have known anything but the most general of facts. Reagan was here only 30 years ago and we can't agree on what he said or did and we have recordings of it all!

As for acceptance and not acceptance this seems to be your boundary not mine. Like a lot of wounded people you need to have something certain to cling to. I am guilty of this as well but I try to make those things factual not faith based.

To find offense at your abusers being included in the title christian is the same as finding offense at them being included under the title human. Being a part of the same whole, does not imply acceptance of their actions. As for it being up to whatever anyone wanted to believe making it a perfect world how do you explain your not allowing certain people to be included in "your" group? that would be imperfect would it not? You are not the only exclusivist in any religion or just regular group of man.

I am not threatened by any cutoff I simply pointed out that you claim one standard and another man may claim another standard, who is the one that decides the legitimate standard?
That my friend is the whole of every single religious argument that has ever taken place.
Just because you strongly believe your beliefs, doesn't make them right or better than anyone else calling themself christian who you think isn't.
I am not saying this to include or defend anyone. I am saying this as a matter of fact and logic. Your going to the point of saying everything is universal acceptance and claiming I am defending evil people and predatirs etc. is to me the same as people who claim that allowing homosexuals to marry would lead to beastiality being the next thing to be included in marraige law. How or why anyone would jump to something so random and unconnected is beyond me.
We are discussing christianity and the differeing sects of it, not perverts et al. What you are saying is that only those who believe as you, are allowed in, and all others are out. That is not christian on the face of it.

Jesus story and the things that come down to us as his preachings are entirely based on acceptance and inclusion. That is the only commonality to the bible stories based on jesus that I've heard. All the rest of the stories and rules seem to suit the cultural/personal desires of the writer, the writer's sponsor, or the ethnic group it originates from.
Your insistence on bible adherence would allow for slavery, the selling of children, pedophilia (mariage of girls as young as 8) stoning for adultery, execution for theft or limb severing, and all sorts of other things we generally acknowledge as crimes harmful to man and society today.
Since these things are generally seen as wrong now what else may be seen as wrong in future? Does man get to adopt what parts of the bible suit him or not? Must we do these things generally agreed to as wrong now because they are in there or not?
It just is not as simple as reading and following the "bible" as you say it is.

One does not have to be religious to be good.
In my experience the more religious a person is, the more evil they do in my life. That is my direct experience of religious people.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340573 - 09/21/10 01:11 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
ONE. I am not "religious"!

TWO. I am generally trying to get across to you that people who are Christians can not expect to get 77 virgins, Muslims can't expect to get their own planet, atheist can't expect to see God, Mormons can't expect to see heaven, Jehovah's Witnesses can't expect to be reincarnated as a butterfly, etc etc. It is not what they believe so what logic in the end would have them receive what they don't believe? If you would read all of these "religious" materials you would find that every single one of them have standards. You have chosen Atheism which in itself has standards to be it's own kind of "religion".

Breaking it down "Barney style"...... People cannot expect to end up on a winning team if they didn't want to make their choice to play during the regular season.

True, one DOES NOT have to be religious to be good. Generally, one does have to be a Christian to see heaven just as one has to be Muslim to get their virgins, etc... that is what THEIR faith sees as a means to an end here on earth. People get to see who's right or wrong when they die.


THREE. Your "facts" are tainted and are not from an unbiased source. Even your basic understanding of Jews, gentiles, and Jesus is curved by your sources and is not factual. There are historical references in the Bible. You are taking things and flipping them to say that the deviated cultural aspects where commanded or condoned by God which is incorrect. You don't even see the whole point between the New and Old Testament so you are commenting on things which you don't appreciate from the beginning. What you think you know is faulty from the start and lacks the context needed to make it actual "logic".

FOUR. There is no proof or logic that even one of my perps could be Christian including the priest. Their actions are not evident of anything other than evil. One of them would have to come forward and accept the consequences in order to show any sign of being a Christian.... that is logic by rule of what Christianity is at it's very simplest form. Your position is that as long as they believe inside that they are Christian then who is anyone to say different, which is completely wrong.

The Bible to you is faulty but you do not need to throw in your assumptions of what is believed by people who you only seem to "academically" understand. Faith is not logical, that is why it is called "faith". I have a small amount of faith that when I die God will simply either point to heaven or hell for me, I can accept either destination, I don't do anything special to try and up my chances.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340632 - 09/22/10 12:16 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
TWO. I am generally trying to get across to you that people who are Christians can not expect to get 77 virgins, Muslims can't expect to get their own planet, atheist can't expect to see God, Mormons can't expect to see heaven, Jehovah's Witnesses can't expect to be reincarnated as a butterfly, etc etc. It is not what they believe so what logic in the end would have them receive what they don't believe? If you would read all of these "religious" materials you would find that every single one of them have standards. You have chosen Atheism which in itself has standards to be it's own kind of "religion"

This just proves my point, as all of your posts do. You believe one thing and someone else believes another. You claim the better more true belief and base this on "the bible". In any case no one who knows or could know what happens after death is alive to tell us.

Besides any choice of point of view/belief system being subjective the fact is that "the bible" is not a documentary piece of work, or a factual relaying of anything. The bible is equal to say Dianetics or some other founding religious document.
It is the words of people who have an agenda using some facts, contemporary conservative moral culture, and their imagination to relay what they imagine and want others to know and believe.
That is the fact of it. The proven undeniable fact.

There is no rule to being an atheist except that one not believe their is a god.
Religion/god has more to do with human insecurity and feeling powerless than it does with anything else. One does not impose or require anything of those one loves. So immediatly the whole god thing is destroyed since he cannot love us if he issues regulations for reciept of that love. That love is conditional is another of the cultural conceptions contemporary to jesus and those long before and after him. It is only in modern times that we come to realize the fallacy of that concept.
So does god get a pass because its in the bible? I think not. Just like we don't sell our women as possessions and do all sorts of other hideous and evil things touted in the bible as right. Today we do not accept conditions on being loved by anyone. That, allowing ourselves to be forced to do things for love to be given us, is the behavior of someone abused and lacking self esteem not someone healthy and accepting of love from another.

I don't mean to take apart your faith, I started this discussion as a way of pointing out that your perception of what is true religion that will get you into heaven is not as certain as you think it is. Others are just as certain of thier beliefs and just as honorable.
So the question still stands how does one decide between them? My Answer: However it is one decides what is ones choice, one does not have the right to depict others as being evil or wrong for having a differing belief.
Dealing with radical hatefilled speech disguised in religious garb, that is meant to and succeeds in winding up people to do bad things isn't the same as talking about another religion or sect of ones own religion. Even if one denies there are other sects of ones own religion or only includes some of those sects and excludes others. You can surely see by now that this is a personal choice based on personal belief and including/excluding others who misuse the faith of the ignorant, isn't the same as saying someone elses religion isn't valid or they aren't really one of them. One does not impose ones personal belief on others, ever.
You can only validly point to another's actions. Hence the adage; "you shall know them by what they do". You see you never have to engage in a discussion of things personal or debate the validity of a faith when dealing with issues. One only ever has to point to actions to see the truth of another.
Saying this or that isn't the right belief is pointless as its a personal choice based on unknowable inner dimensions. Actions are the only proof of anything.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340639 - 09/22/10 01:41 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
JustSurviving Offline


Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 47
Loc: Hell
Originally Posted By: kidneythis

In any case no one who... could know what happens after death is alive to tell us.
I was dead for over an hour when I was 10 from a severe beating by my father involving head injuries and a collapsed lung. I've seen after death.


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#340645 - 09/22/10 03:36 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: JustSurviving]
EvanCan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 170
What was it like for you, JustSurviving?
My neighbor (who also was "dead" but "revived") described an incredible peace, almost fluid. I would love to hear what your experience was like. Can you remember it?

(I am sorrowful, however, for the event that took you to that place.)

_________________________
Hope Springs 2010 WoR Alumnus
"I'm here, and I'm on the mend."


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#340650 - 09/22/10 05:09 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I gave recognition as to what other faiths believe according to the references that THEY follow after. I have chosen what I believe in spite of my first introduction to faith. I was killed/murdered multiple times and I couldn't tell you anything about any experience except the momentary feeling that the abuse was finally over only to have my perps medically revive me and continue their assaults.

According to you, anyone who has any kind of faith is weak in mind, manipulated, and insecure.... that there is offensive and belittling to anybody. You would deny that it takes just as much faith to believe that there is not any kind of god because you have convinced yourself of the things you need to believe in order for you be empowered. You have faith too, you have been exercising it through out.

You are faulty in your understandings just from the small things you've thrown in here and there. The invalid statements that you hold to without evidence. For example you have read sections of the Bible to support what you said. You stated
Quote:
Just like we don't sell our women as possessions and do all sorts of other hideous and evil things touted in the bible as right.
The Bible does not say that those things are "right" or commanded by God. That is your failed personal interpretation to help reinforce the falsehoods you want to believe about things of the Bible, you need to own your bias. You really should evaluate how you can objectively look at what is true and what is made up to protect yourself. The only "proven undeniable facts" are those that you possess for your own needs.

The Bible continues to be proven accurate concerning historical evidence, the only arguments are of things concerning the existence of Jesus and His deity. It's more comparable to a history text book than your claim of fallacy. Your atheistic views would discount every part of truth it carries just based on your principles. I've been atheist and have studied faiths to know what is and what isn't for my own knowledge so that I wasn't just ignorant and dismissive without reason. My conclusions have come from things that are not fabricated, you would say that it all is just to keep to your stance.

Atheist have more rules than you recognize in order to carry that title, one of them is deny anything that may hold opposition nomatter what the evidence. What I believe is completely based on evidence and not by someone else's words, that there separates me from being a follower of blind faith and manipulation. That is the fact of it.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340667 - 09/22/10 10:55 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I am not questioning your belief's. I am simply pointingout that the certainty you have about them is not so certain.

We have gone all over the place and I'm done. You never address the same thing twice nor do you respond to anything I say directly. I can't get anywhere with you. And that is part of the point I am trying to make with you.
I do not deny "anything that may hold opposition" whatever that means.
Your faith is your faith, and faith is; "firm belief in something for which there is no proof" The definition itself proves my point that your certainty is no certainty at all. It is only your irrational belief in something for which there is no proof. How can you possibly pass judgment on anyone based on that?

It's been engaging I wish you well but I'm done here this isn't going anywhere and I don't know how to make it become productive.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340914 - 09/27/10 09:16 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: EvanCan]
JustSurviving Offline


Registered: 04/22/10
Posts: 47
Loc: Hell
Originally Posted By: EvanCan
What was it like for you, JustSurviving?
My neighbor (who also was "dead" but "revived") described an incredible peace, almost fluid. I would love to hear what your experience was like. Can you remember it?

(I am sorrowful, however, for the event that took you to that place.)
I remember it vividly. I remember pain then suddenly the pain started to fade. At that point, I remember the physicians in the ER scrambling around and a nurse grabbing my head and looking straight into my eyes. Then all the pain stopped. Then there was nothing. No dead ancestors, no savior holding me, no light, no peace, no floating above my body looking down... just nothing. I was aware of the nothing, but that was all it was. Then pain again... apparently after an hour of being dead. They "worked" on me for about 45 minutes but then pronounced me dead. I "came back" about 20 minutes later "on my own" with a tube down my throat... No vital signs or heart activity at all during that 60+ minutes. Just dead.


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#341022 - 09/28/10 02:44 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: JustSurviving]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
I saw this today and thought I should post it here. I think I felt a little disdain for me and my atheism.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-religion-survey-20100928,0,3225238.story

The thing that did it for me was the threat of never ending pain if I didn't do as I was told.
I'm not sorry at all to point out that this is ABUSE exactly the abuse I had already endured and went on to endure for many years after that realization.
If god were real he would not use abuse to get us to do his bidding. Why would he need us to anyway?

Read the article it explains a little why so many don't even think that far.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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