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#340421 - 09/18/10 04:08 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
That just brings me back to my point, the preacher is not a true Christian. Just because he has a church, has followers, just because he uses a bible... none of that makes him something that he is not.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340435 - 09/18/10 07:23 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
You are again using dogma to make an argument that I thought we were having which was about historical progression/development of mass religious culture in the mediterranean. I wasn't, am not arguing about who's dogma is right. I don't care about that.

True christian? who gets to decide that?
All people who claim to be christian use the bible. Just because you don't think they are doing it right, doesn't make them not a christian. If they read the bible and are acting on what they understand they are christian.
That is the basis of all religious conflict, one person deciding another person is "not doing it right".

Your argument is essentially the same argument the pope and his followers had for not allowing the bible to be printed in native languages back in the middle ages. If the people can read it for themselves they will do as they see fit not as the pope says. And that is exactly what happened. in short order and it hasn't stopped to this day, new christian sects keep springing up with a "new" interpretation of what the bible "really" means.

It doesn't mean he was right or wrong in wanting to maintain control. It only proves out his fear of, to use a word that didn't exist then, the Balkanization of the christian faith. Of course this also meant he would lose the power and stability, that Constantine saw was possible and the papacy had mostly achieved, with a single unified religion. Until that happened the papacy was able to weild power over all the christian nations and influence what they did.
After the bible was printed in native languages and people could read it for themselves and decide what it meant to them they steadily lost that power right up to this day. Even with the massive power and wealth they have today it is a mere shadow of what it once was.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340436 - 09/18/10 07:40 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Originally Posted By: jls
I like what you said about us not confronting the central fact of life in Afghanistan, with paying off warlords etc I mean and not recognizing them being the power source in the region, as you say. So many people equate the re-building of Iraq after Saddam with our efforts in Afghanistan but these examples couldn’t be more different. Iraq is a relatively modern state with a regular army and government institutions that can at least nominally administer state affairs, along with an educated class of people among the population to help all of this along. Afghanistan, however, possesses none of these things and never has. Its population is ethnically disparate, much of it nomadic, where power is consolidated not through political parties but via inter-marriage between the most dominant tribes. All of these ways go back centuries and I doubt this is going to change much despite our latest intervention, not to mention the Russians and the British before us, both of whom failed miserably. Another thing to consider is that the Taliban we are engaged with today is not the same as it was prior to 9/11 since Al Qaeda was the main organizer in Afghanistan back then, which took advantage of the country’s failed state status to further their own ends. JS


I'm quoting you to bring this back to your original intent with the OP.

I did not intend to hijack your thread with my discussion with USMC97 about he divergence of christian faiths and the relationship between judaism, christianity and islam.

The guy wanting to burn the koran was an idiot. The problem in afganistan is the problem of civilizing a nation run by drug gangs who have existed for centuries in some cases.

I do not think demeaning their religion is helpful to the problem. I do think our government needs to face the fact that we have to impose civil society on them and teach them how to live in a civil society. The people have lost that knowledge and this wildness and cheapness of life seems normal to them.

The sad part os that we wasted all that time and money in Iraq which would have been better used in Afganistan. We have a decade of work at least in front of us if we want them to become a proper stable nation.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340457 - 09/19/10 05:36 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
The discourse between you and USMC97 was great! I wish more people could argue about religion so respectfully:)

You’re right that demeaning one faith in the name of another is a fallacy. However, I don't agree with you that imposing civil society will work everywhere. There are some places in the world that simply don't conform to capitalism and industrialization, Afghanistan being one of them. When you mention being there only a decade or so longer I am hopeful. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340467 - 09/19/10 11:06 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Everywhere conforms to development and peace. It is the drug gangs that make afganistan seem like it cannot be made safe. haey have a thousand years or more of manipulating people using early life infliction of trauma to break them so that very few of them have a spine when they grow up. Those who do grow up with a spine are recruited, killed for not wanting to be recruited, or keep quiet to avoid either fate.

No group of human beings will live that way when a better life is available unless the poorer life is imposed on them. Afgans are not aliens they are people just like you and I with less education and a life filled with terror and trauma crippling them and preventing them from haveing time to think rationally and make rational decisions. In fact they probably aren't even aware of what rational thought is. Many still believe in magic.

One either acts as the drug gang/warlords have laid out a persons life should go or one is marked for further trauma, abuse, violence or death. No independent thought is tolerated. That is why it is so hard to bring safety to these people. It is a nation of abuse victims who don't even know they are abuse victims. Pride precludes them from admitting this and will leave them stripped of their dignity if they don't also have the sophistication (something knowledge brings) to understand that the things they did that would undermine their dignity are/were out of their control. They did the best they could with what they have. And that is not enough for a lot of people. Many think those words hollow. I was included among that group until very recently. I did not understand the truth of the statement that "we are all doing our best".

So the blockage to civilizing the place isn't some un-nameable special thing that Afgans have it is easily named, hard to address, and even harder to get past prejudice like you expressed which has been attached to these poor people for centuries.

If you look at it what is being done to those people is not unlike what happened in the projects and inner cities all over America when crack cocaine hit. There are still areas where drug gangs hold sway here using the same trauma based terrorizing tactics scum have always used.

The effects of trauma and fear are well known and reliable responses. Only knowledge and rationality can defeat this, that requires education. Why do you think they are so against women being educated? Notonly does it free their minds they pass it on to their sons who might grow up to fight back.
Getting past trauma is why we are here on MS, to gain the rational knowledge to be able to overcome our trauma.
It is no different for Afgans. Trauma no matter what the cause has the same effects on all people.



Edited by kidneythis (09/19/10 11:11 AM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340483 - 09/19/10 06:20 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
A "true Christian" is denoted by the Bible itself just as the Qu`ran dictates what a Muslim is. These books are not menus for God or a god to be conformed to what a person wants them to be.

If it were as you say and there were no distinction, it would be like having anyone who owned a gun call themselves a law abiding citizen or better yet call themselves a cop. There is a responsibility toward the truth of what you believe and to others who may be influenced by you, especially those who rise up as leaders. If someone says they believe something and do not follow the very basics of what they lay claim to then they are a fraud.

That preacher did not hear from the Bible to even threaten to burn a Qu`ran. He is a fanatic who has more desire toward his own needs of feeling important.

David Koresh - used a Bible, not a Christian

Fred Phelps - uses a Bible, not a Christian

Benny Hinn - not a Christian but a manipulating con artist

Obama - claims to be a Christian, not a Christian

Mormons - Carry Bibles along side the Book of Mormon, not Christian

Joel Olsteen has a "megachurch" uses the Bible, not a Christian but a glorified inspirational speaker

The priest who harmed me - he lead many people by use of the Bible and tradition, listed as a martyr by the Catholic church, was not a true Christian

The standards I speak of are not my own, they are the Bible's standards, God's word if one so claims to believe. It just so happens that people who are not true Christians skip all of the verses that describe exactly who they are according to the Bible.

When someone goes against the things they claim to believe with pure intent then they can not truly be what they say they are. Those who call themselves Christians are to give effort to fight against sin in there life whether it is always present or they are healed from them, not to intently do wrong.

They are not true Christians just as a Muslim who eats bacon is not a real Muslim. That is not dogma it is in following what someone claims to believe. The act of picking and choosing completely takes away from anyone saying that they have faith.

I do not have faith that is acceptable, I'm not going to say that I am a Christian just like I will not say that I am a "survivor". I will not know until my end... heaven, hell, planet, desolation, grace, wrath, or 77 virgins of which I wouldn't know what to do with. I believe the Bible says as it says just as the Qu`ran says it's own piece. Everything to me is pretty much hearsay until God, Shiva, Crab people, Aliens or whoever show up when I die. I'm just betting on it being Christianity where God will set it straight, even Billy Graham has some things wrong. The "Pope" and the whole idea of the papacy will surely be pointed out.

The Bible never told Catholics to be self preserving in their actions with any aspect, middle ages or present day. If anything has happened in order to attain more power then it probably is by their own doing and not Gods. It was not Biblical for the Constantine or Catholics to do what they have done, those were not acts of "Christians" but of selfish man.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340490 - 09/19/10 08:08 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
WHo gets to decide USMC97? Who's bible is the "real" bible? You say what Constamtine did was wrong but he gave you the ancestor of whatever bible you read.
Christianity after Jesus was a disparate multifaceted thing with as many churches as there were cities and people who had set beliefs. There were literally hundreds of thousands of different churches all claiming to be followers of Jesus.
The unity you allude to when you say the bible tells me so is what Constantine gave you. He wasn't the only impetus he just took advantage of something that was happening anyway.
All of the priests and religious leaders who came to Nicene were going to do something of the same thing anyway. There were to many differences and it was causing strife and worse. The came together to set the rules you might say, for all Christians.

So who is it that gets to say who is a Christian or not? The bible you point to was written by the priests at Nicene and re-edited in the middle ages. You say Constantibne was wrong then doesn't that make the bible wrong?

You see it isn't so easy. Anyone can pick anything from the literature and turn it into a sect and that would be legitimate as that is how the church (not a unified entity) was for those 325 years after Jesus died.

BTW Jesus words were never recorded when he was alive. It was decades later when people started to write down what they say they remembered. Most of this was lost. The bible was written by the priests at Nicene based on the writings of men who were making third or fourth hand copies of stories that were told.

It isn't as certain a thing as you want it to be.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340496 - 09/19/10 08:53 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You seem to believe that everything derived from the Catholic "church" and has since just been manipulated. Translations are not taken from one version turning them into another, they are made by looking a the same original writings of Hebrew and Greek, I believe the Catholics translated theirs from Latin writings. Priests did not write all, the Catholic Bible isn't even the same because they have it so it reads to benefit their cause.

The Nicene Creed is meaningless to me as well as all of the traditional Catholic customs, most of which I had to perform while being abused. The Nicene Creed is not in the Bible just like praying to Mary is not in the Bible.

Like I said before, God gets to say who is Christian or not.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340547 - 09/20/10 09:44 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
When I say priests to describe the men at Nicene they are not catholic priests the catholic church didn't exist yet. That is the name I have given to the men who were deemed leading christians at the time. This meant mainly the wealthy and royalty or those chosen by royalty. That is the origin of the christioan church's we know today. The men who wrote othe bibles as you say refered to original documents which many never had access to and relied on others writings, were also men chosen by whomever was in power at the time, or they were men in revolt from whatever form of the church was local to them.
BTW almost everything was written in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. Greek because they were the first, Latin because the Roman Empire was in existence and that was the universal language of the Empire, and Hebrew because the Jews keep their language as part of their religion.
There are some other languages used as well and the men putting together the unified view of the church had thew knowledge amoing them to read and write in all the languages.

I'm not saying that everything came from the catholics though they were the end result of Nicene, eventually. The main thing that came from it was a unified idea of what christianity was. There was great disturbance happening with the different groups doing all sorts of things in jesus name that many disapproved of. The people who thought his talk of love meant sexual love and had orgies as mass, and many others who were from that end of the spectrum to the other. This was a political problem of how to control so many people who may not have been doing anything wrong, but doing what they were doing was upsetting the populace and often the power in charge personally did not approve.

What I'm trying to get across in our discussion, is that no man can say whether or not another is a christian except as a personal opinion. A man cannot legitimately deny anothers claim of being a christian or force a test of his christianity upon him because christianity is practically, whatever one wants it to be, the only requirement being that one accepts Jesus word and the example of his life. All the rest is something developed by man to maintain control over the believers.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340554 - 09/21/10 01:46 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
The source of your history is biased by something which is making it only partially correct, I can't decipher all that for you.

In response to the rest is that there is nothing that backs your "opinion" except for universalism. Where it is that nobody wants to offend anyone and everything is supposed to be tolerated and accepted. All things are up for personal interpretation.... nothing good has ever come from that.

I am biased in hearing indirectly that you are defending evil people, manipulators, predators, those like my perp(s). If everything was up to what people want to believe and have accepted then it would be a perfect world, right? No judging or having standards would make it so that everyone is forcibly accepted. Christianity is not based on AA where it would be "the God of your understanding".

I'm not saying anything that would be different for any other respective faiths. Through this whole thing Christianity has become the faith that has/needs adjustable standards. Something about what I have said is threatening to you in saying that there is a "cutoff" for those who are really Christians. The Bible says that there is but you believe that the translations are either faulty or too offensive to be right.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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