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#340162 - 09/13/10 01:22 PM Burning Korans + Building Mosques
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Is it just me or do these controversies seem ridiculous to others as well? First off, why is that moron in Florida who threatened to burn the Koran on Sept 11th getting the attention that he has been receiving? The Secretary of Defence called him personally about this for God’s sake. So we won’t negotiate with the Taliban but we will with him? I’m not saying that we should with either but it seems absurd to me that an obscure idiot like him is having the affect he is on American foreign policy. What’s even more ironic to me is how can he call himself a Christian while advocating the desecration of another monotheistic faith’s sacred text? Muslims, Christians and Jews are called “people of the book” for a reason, in that the Koran, Bible and Torah all recognize the same universal God and recognize each other going back to Abraham so to desecrate one text in the name of the other is an insult to any one of these faiths and to God in general in my opinion.

Second is to do with that “mosque” being built near Ground Zero in Manhattan. I put “mosque” in quotations since calling it that is a misnomer. Rather, it is meant to be a 13 story cultural centre, which includes a prayer room, but also will have work out equipment, a swimming pool, a daycare, and so on. Sounds like a threat to downtown New York to me. (Sorry for my sarcasm). Seriously though one thing that sticks out to do with this controversy is that its easily forgotten that people of many faiths lost their lives in those towers on September 11th, including a significant number of Muslim Americans. On that note where are the howls of protests about Christian church’s being in the vicinity of where Timothy McVeigh blew up that building in Oklahoma City? As an extremist with Christian beliefs he attacked America in the name of God after all. Anyways just food for thought. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340213 - 09/14/10 12:13 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Hmm. I hate to disabuse you JLS but we do negotiate with the Taliban on a regular basis. We pay off warlords/drug dealers who have been and will be again in the pay of the Taliban. We also pay them directly for safe passage of the trucks of supplies we drive over the Khyber Pass. Its all a house of cards set up by a thousand years of warlords/drug dealers being the power source in the region and us not confronting that central fact of life there.

The pastor in Florida started his crap originally about "not backing down any more to Islam." "I'm tired of us backing down" He was making up rhetoric to build a constituency of followers for his little church.

An Imam from a nearby Mosque came to him to talk since no one else was and he probably knows from experience where he comes from that one must engage crazy people and find out just how crazy they are and what they want or they start blowing things up or doing outrageous things that make others blow things up. So he went to speak to the nutter and somehow the whole thing became about the Community Center.

Personally I think he's just another Christian phony looking for ways to accumulate money and a power base to make even more money.

You can see by the drained fearful look on his face when he finally aquiessed to pleas to not burn the Koran, that he had no clue about the outside world until this went global. I'm guessing the idiot thought it would be just a local or maybe National thing. His personal fantasy bubble got popped and he was forced by his own stupidity to face the fact the he was stupid.

Why does this get play? IMO the Republican Party using Christianity as a political tool since the mid seventies. Slowly over this time more and more radical(original meaning of that word when used in America is CRAZY) ideas have been put forth because whne one uses emotion/religion to manipulate people one has to constantly up the provocation or it goes flat. It is very like drug abuse. You can see how far this has gone now in glen beck. Even twenty years ago he would have been banned and possibly arrested for the crap he says and does. It is nothing but harmful and hateful. Shouting fire in a theatre wold be less so than his evil. Yet here we are the just deserts of allowing it to happen.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340230 - 09/14/10 02:47 PM Re:"Idiots" Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
That preacher evidently is not a true Christian just as those who follow Phelps, those "christian" extremist seem to believe that Jesus was crazy if how they handle themselves reflects how they are doing "what Jesus would do". It says no where in the Bible to be a freak of nature.

Big note: The Qu`ran does not speak of the "same universal God" just like Mormons don't believe in the same Christian God, just like Catholics believe the "pope" is next to God (or that the first pope was really the easter bunny... Southpark, great episode)just like Tom Cruise believes alien spirits possess people. Huge differences!

The plan for a mosque in Ground Zero was a failed attempt at posing forgiveness. Like if anyone here forcefully had their abuser come back to live in their home, it's wrong. No, not all muslims are extremist but it should be respected and acknowledged that the extremist were in fact muslims and the symbol of allowing them to invade something sacred is not a sign of forgiveness. Just like it would be wrong allowing a church to be built where someone blew up an abortion clinic in "God's name". The Bible don't say to kill, those people just manufacture what they want to make themselves feel important and "righteous".

As for those who died in the buildings who were muslim, the Qu`ran says:

Al-‘Imrān (3): 3: Never think that those who are killed in the way of God are dead. They are alive, getting succour from their Lord. [6].
which extremist aka fundamentalist use to justify their deaths.

Burning a Qu`ran would have been a useless act to provoke misguided people and further the reinforcement of their beliefs towards "infidels". Someone could burn a Bible infront of me and it wouldn't bother me none. It's a freakin' book, God's bigger than a little book! Burn a Bible infront of a hillbilly who's never even opened a Bible and call themselves Christian, you might be looking to get shot. Stupid people are stupid people!

Also, The Bible says nothing about blowing up buildings to preach about God on the other hand parts of the Qu`ran are translated to provoke Jihad and to kill for Allah. Timothy McVeigh was not following any Christian beliefs, he was a knucklehead just like the others who define the Bible to say things that it plainly does not..... Hitler thought he was a Christian and nothing he did was of God. Just because he called himself one did not make him one.

Signing off.... dirka dirka, hezbolah, jihad jihad, dirka dirka, la la la la

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340251 - 09/14/10 11:27 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I like what you said about us not confronting the central fact of life in Afghanistan, with paying off warlords etc I mean and not recognizing them being the power source in the region, as you say. So many people equate the re-building of Iraq after Saddam with our efforts in Afghanistan but these examples couldn’t be more different. Iraq is a relatively modern state with a regular army and government institutions that can at least nominally administer state affairs, along with an educated class of people among the population to help all of this along. Afghanistan, however, possesses none of these things and never has. Its population is ethnically disparate, much of it nomadic, where power is consolidated not through political parties but via inter-marriage between the most dominant tribes. All of these ways go back centuries and I doubt this is going to change much despite our latest intervention, not to mention the Russians and the British before us, both of whom failed miserably. Another thing to consider is that the Taliban we are engaged with today is not the same as it was prior to 9/11 since Al Qaeda was the main organizer in Afghanistan back then, which took advantage of the country’s failed state status to further their own ends. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340283 - 09/15/10 05:49 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: jls]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Big note: The Qu`ran does not speak of the "same universal God" just like Mormons don't believe in the same Christian God, just like Catholics believe the "pope" is next to God (or that the first pope was really the easter bunny... Southpark, great episode)just like Tom Cruise believes alien spirits possess people. Huge differences!

I don't know about the easter bunny but christians (of which mormons are counted), jews and muslims all worship the god of abraham.
Being mormon is similar to being a baptist or a snake handler. Its all forms of the same religion, christianity.

Tom Cruise?! I'll tell you this, the church of scientology broke into the FBI headquarters in Washington DC and removed the files the FBI had on them and got away without being prosecuted. Their founder was a child abuser according to his own son and the many who escaped his "navy" which was a ship he kept his cult followers trapped on before they found a compound in LA. He kept children locked in the chain locker if they objected to any maltreatment or complained. He was a phony from day one and the Navy gave him a dishonorable discharge. There is a book out by his son. Its kind of hard to find but it lays out old lron's life as a con artist from day one. Lron's personal mentor and hero (EDIT: When I say personal mentor I mean that literally. They were close personal friends lron being much younger.) was I can't think of his name at the moment, Oh yea here ya go; "By the early 20th century, Aleister Crowley (known as the black pope) was linked to Satanism. Although he called himself "the beast", used the words "life" "love" and "light" to describe Satan and once baptized and crucified a toad as Jesus, he was not a Satanist but a magician and occultist." This is the guy lron patterned himself on. Note the magician/occultist reference and compare that to the scientologist doctrine.



Edited by kidneythis (09/16/10 03:11 PM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340296 - 09/15/10 11:54 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
With Jews being the exception, the other Abrahamic faiths (Christianity and Islam) are triumphalist, meaning that they believe one’s eternal salvation can be achieved through conversion to one religion or another. In light of this I suppose it’s not surprising that there is resistance to the notion of finding common ground via worshiping the same universal God since this would take the steam out of such a competition for souls. From what I know about Judaism they aren’t much better as far as feeling superior goes. It’s just that they don’t bother with going about drumming up business like some Christian and Muslim sects do. Considering themselves God’s chosen people is enough I guess.

As much as I have issues with many world religions Scientology takes the cake for me. They aren’t even a religion in my opinion. Rather, I classify them as a cult that is all about exploiting its members for money in exchange for supposed influence in their “church”. It is essentially a big pyramid scheme, with celebrities at the top as it seems. Funnily enough on September 11th I saw a group of people on the street protesting Scientology’s abuses and all I could think was forget about burning the Koran. Let's torch Scientology founder L Ron Hubbard’s book “Dianetics” instead:) JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#340327 - 09/16/10 06:08 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Warning***** This may/will sound super insensitive/offensive/ignorant******

Christians believe that Jesus was God, not "a" god. That God (Spirit, God the Father, God the Son) is love... which honestly I haven't much experienced personally for myself. There is nothing bad described about Jesus the son, or God the Father, in the Bible. The interpreters are the ones who screw things up to emphasize their personal views of what God says a lot of the time. Many things in the Bible are literal but people make them out to be offensive when it's just how things are, it's just plainly that sin is sin and nobody's perfect.

Mormons are not Christians except through their own say so, they do not believe what Christians believe and most of their faith comes from their own book not the Bible. They believe in getting their own planets when they die(abbreviated) and that people with ethnicity came from a cursed origin to fuel the fire(semi changed for acceptance in todays culture). Among a great many other beliefs that completely separate them from Christian doctrine.

Catholics (raised catholic, abused by priest) I will say are partial Christians or what I call "accidental Christians" because they have a lot of things right according to the Bible but they also fall victim to their faith being told to them by "the church" when they are not THEE "church"... They are pure religion and Christianity is not based upon religiosity, it is a relational aspect between God and man. There are some mentionable parts of Revelations that describe a "church" similar but most Catholics never read their own Bibles which leaves them susceptible to believe all their traditional things with out merit.

Jews worship the same Christian God but ignore the divinity of Jesus as the fulfillment of prophecies in the Torah. Because of their preconceived notion of what their savior was supposed to be in their eyes, they missed Him but God still has a place for them.

Might as well call out Jehovah's Witnesses, who I also deem as possible "accidental Christians". I myself wish I could get passed their beliefs so that I could be one of them. They don't believe in Hell which would be great, it's either heaven or you just stop existing. When I die I don't need to have eternal life, I don't request it, I just want things to be over.

Muslims believe in Allah, which might be an "alter ego" of the Christian God but it is not the same God. Their faith in Allah is taught through dominance, fear and forced conversion. When someone sees the need for them to kill for a god, the god is not big enough (Catholics, well... Europeans in general fell into that belief but in no place of the Bible was it commanded for them to do so, where as the Qu`ran does command it). Their books were written on rocks by Mohammad who dirka dirka, dirka di dirk i dirka la la la. I was attracted to Islam because of the self discipline and true following, my direction changed when I found what things were really in the Qu`ran which no real god would need people to do evil for righteousness sake.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340367 - 09/17/10 03:06 PM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
USMC,you are wrong. These are easily checked facts.

Mormons are christian. If that logic you used was valid then snake handlers, babtists, those morons who let their kids die for lack of medical treatment, talking in tongues, adventists, jehovah's witness's etc. would all be excluded. In fact any nonRoman Catholic who wanted to claim to be christian would not be a christian according to your logic. What about all the different versions of the bible? Who decides which one is "right"?
Which brings us to Catholics as christians. They are the original christians, a church founded by Peter himself. Your doctrinal assertions has no effect on that.
Muslims are also part of this family of religions. It was started based on the christian preachings that were coming into arabia at the time and judasim had been there for a while and may even have started there. They believe in the old testament and like all new sects they have their own text to provide the reasoning for the divergence from the original just like most christian sects have different bible's and different interpretations (dogmas that justify the difference) of the same bible.


Who is right? Who is good enough to be able to decide that?
That is rhetorical.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#340390 - 09/18/10 01:23 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: kidneythis]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
Check my facts, most of those you listed are excluded from actually being Christians, it's not "my" logic, it is in fact... FACT. By your logic anybody can just call themselves a Christian. There is nothing about handling snakes in the Bible, people who practice Santeria and Voodoo are not Christians just because they have little snippets out of the Bible. Yes even Jehovah's witnesses, except as I termed "by accident", because they are aiming at a target that is not backed up by the Bible.

Mormons believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers, that God is one of many gods, that God was once a man, that they too can achieve becoming the God of their own planet. This is explained in their "doctrine and covenants", referred to as the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial Kingdoms. They are taught that the serpent in the Garden of Eden was correct in that they can become like God. They believe that they must place there trust in Joseph Smith, not Jesus. Joseph Smith also boast to claim that he did more that Jesus. Smith the prophet claimed to be told that there where "Quaker" looking people who reside on the moon 6ft tall who lived up to 1000 years old, Brigham Young later claimed that the sun was inhabited. Smith prophesied that a "New Jerusalem" was to be built in western Missouri during his generation. This IS their beliefs and history, sorry if you think I'm making it up but ask one and they can't deny it.... they can only make excuses for these things. To say that they are not Christians may seem offensive but it's the truth. The book of mormon in it's totality contradicts the Bible. They believe in what they believe which is why they ARE Mormons. If they are correct in their faith then all the power to them. I am not mormon and don't plan for an afterlife under their belief system, should I be called a Mormon? It's not the same God.

There were Christians way before the Catholics formed so they ARE NOT the "original Christians", they were born from a split of the western church in Rome. God's church collectively was founded by Jesus not Simon Peter, Peter (debatable that he was the rock mentioned in Matt 16:13-18) was not given the status as head of "the church" or the first bishop or "Pope" by Jesus though that is what Catholics are taught. The title of "Pope" did not even come into play until 300years after Peter along with the Monarchical practices. Catholics throughout the centuries thrived on power, corruption and manipulation, a very similar "church" is described in Revelations which they do not teach. They have protected themselves by destroying and hiding anything that they deemed heretical or threatening to what they wanted the world to believe. They continue to this day following the same protocols. Because of their existence does not mean that what they practice is completely God's intended "church".

Muslims are a religion but they are not a Christian faith, call a Muslim a Christian and see how accepting they respond. They believe Jesus as only a prophet among many. The Qu`ran teaches things contrary to what the Bible teaches even with the inclusion of the Torah. None of the Torah says to kill your enemies for God. God to them is a dictator which is what they model after.

Not everyone believes in the same "universal God", my God is not the same as Ra, Zeus, Vishnu, Allah or others. He is not a female or gender neutral. He is what the Bible speaks of whether I like it or not because the Bible has been the only thing that has not shown HUMAN flaws in it's creation. Do my beliefs make me "saved"? I leave that up to God because I don't much care, where I end up is where I was always going to go anyway. I have a hard enough time trying to find my way passed all the crap taught to me by the priest.

Again, Check my facts.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#340404 - 09/18/10 11:45 AM Re: Burning Korans + Building Mosques [Re: usmc97]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Excluded by whom?
If I said you were making anything up, I'm sure there was a point to it. You did make up that I said a muslim was a christian.
You are including here your "beliefs" rather than the historical fact. Your beliefs, USMC, do not decide who is in what religion.

There were as many sects of christianity as there were cities and churches in those cities until 325 AD when Constantine ordered the Council of Nicene to establish a unified dogma for the christian faith. This was clearly so he could unify the empire under the one faith. As the previous emperors had kept control via religion using multiple gods, who had many varied dogmas for the same god in different areas of the empire, he saw the possibility of power centered in one god and one dogma.
As always it was about power.

I think you have no clue at all of how the bible was made. It started in Nicene, Turkey. You've heard of the Nicene Creed?
That was written as a way to express the unity of the many faiths of the christian church and to bring them together, in the 4th century when the "christians" from all over the mediteranean world came together under orders from Constantine, and they wrote the first bible.
The bible you point to as arbitor of all that is right, is a third plus, generation decendant of the bible written by that council committee of men trying to unify all the many variations of christian faith that had spung up in the 325 years since jesus death. They deleted many practices and beliefs for their own reasons. Reasons that sound very similar to your declarations of certainty in what you believe.
And the same is true of the bible you have today. It was edited and added to to suit whomever it was that was writing it at the time.

You are arguing with me from a position of faith which is based on the magical beliefs of whomever wrote the book you are using to justify that faith. I am speaking from a position of historical fact.
The tree of eastern Mediterranean religion goes from, multitheism, to judaism, to christianity, to Islam. All from the same geographic place and based on the same god. To dilineate the many many versions of christianity into who is real and who isn't would be dishonest since they all start from similar points in space and latch onto snippets of whatever gospel or legend they want to to distinguish themselves from everyone else so they can feel superior to others by saying "you aren't worshiping the "real" god like we are".
This is and has always been the way of religion. That is why political types latch onto it as a way to gain power. It is as reliable a human characteristic as there ever was or will be. Only reason overcomes it and with so many working so hard to prevent reason from being learned it will be a long time yet before mankind finally overcomes this evil habit of believing the unbelievable and using that lack, as justification for vilifying their fellow man and committing high crimes and misdemenanors against him.

Look at the idiot wanting to burn the koran. He was just trying to whip up hate against islam so he could gain the power that those who bought into his crap gave him. it started with "I'm tired of backing down" to something nonspecific about the community center in Manhatten. He doesn't care what he says or how it affects anyone he just wants those angry self righteous "believer's" to show up at his church and donate money to him. He backed off when his amazing stupidity created a situation he couldn't control. Which is inevitable with all power seekers using religion to gain illegitimate power.



Edited by kidneythis (09/18/10 11:46 AM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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