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#333640 - 06/13/10 12:21 PM Aaron vargas
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-fort-bragg-killing-20100612,0,2242136,full.story

If it matters to you maybe go to the website and send an email asking them to edit this comment at the end of this article to include information that this idea of one having to have been abused to be an abuser is untrue.
A comment from one of McNeill's daughters is posted on Vargas' website. "Before you can be an abuser, you must be a victim. Who was Darrell's abuser?" she asks, then describes what she calls 100 years of secrecy and inaction.




Edited by kidneythis (06/13/10 12:37 PM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#333824 - 06/15/10 06:41 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: kidneythis]
Nony Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 9
Aaron Vargas was sentenced today to 9 years in prison. He could be paroled in 4 years. I fervently wish he'll appeal but, "Vargas' lawyer told ABC7 he will look into an appeal but does not know if there are grounds to file." I really wish his website, family and lawyer had dealt with the crime more with the "male" sexual abuse perspective (rather than just child abuse) and called experts in this field.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/state&id=7499590


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#333831 - 06/15/10 08:58 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: Nony]
Pattycakes Offline


Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 109
Loc: Canada
well, I think it isn't too bad considering how harsh the justice system seems to be in the USA. I thought he'd get around 15 years at least after reading about the story.

Nony: you're right, with the right experts, they might have gotten an eaven shorter sentence.

All in all it's half a victory that doesn't make up for a battle lost in childhood...

Sad...
Pattycakes

_________________________
If you judge people, you have no time to love them.-Mother Theresa




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#333832 - 06/15/10 09:03 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: Nony]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
This Judge and District Attorney should read the declaration of independence, it would scare the crap out of them. People like the law enforcement, judges and prosecutors of Mendocino County are a top rate example of why the Second Amendment was put in the bill of rights, because at the end of the day, government really does not give a damn about the governed or their safety. You have to protect yourself. That is what the judge is really afraid of.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#333889 - 06/16/10 03:15 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: Pattycakes]
Nony Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 9
Aaron accepted a plea bargain with the maximum sentence being 10 years. Supporters had hoped he'd get off with probation and time served--18 months-- and mental health counseling.


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#333912 - 06/16/10 06:59 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: Nony]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
What is kind of weird is that he was convicted of voluntary manslaughter but as part of his harsh sentencing the judge cited his belief that the killing was intentional. I would be researching case history of the propriety of such a reason being used for sentencing on a voluntary manslaughter charge, particularly where the widow who witnessed the act testified urging leniency. Considering the entire establishment of that county either ignored or refused to act on multiple reports of McNeil's wrongdoing, I question whether the NAMBLA party line of "sexual orientation" holds sway in that county. It is very leftist and "forward thinking".

BTW: My reference to sexual orientation insinuating it is illegitimate in regards to pedophiles is based on the difference that attraction to ones one sex practiced with consenting adult partners is a legitimate practice (regardless of your view of sinfulness) while an attraction to a child who does not have the requisite maturity or knowledge to consent in the relationship is not legitimate or moral in any context.



Edited by catfish86 (06/16/10 07:07 PM)
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#333914 - 06/16/10 07:09 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: catfish86]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Leftism and forward thinking doesn't = paedophile nor does it condone paedophilia

Merriam Webster definition;
Intentional-
1 : done by intention or design : intended <intentional damage>

Voluntary, note number 3 -
1 : proceeding from the will or from one's own choice or consent
2 : unconstrained by interference : self-determining
3 : done by design or intention : intentional <voluntary manslaughter>
4 : of, relating to, subject to, or regulated by the will <voluntary behavior>
5 : having power of free choice
6 : provided or supported by voluntary action <a voluntary organization>
7 : acting or done of one's own free will without valuable consideration or legal obligation

All things considered 9 years is a shorter sentence for killing someone than a man would get in more progressive Countries and states.
I think in most places its a 10 year minimum. Don't quote me on that.

You have to remember here that killing someone no matter how righteous or emotionally satisfying is wrong.



Edited by kidneythis (06/16/10 07:27 PM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#334027 - 06/17/10 10:55 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: kidneythis]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
First, my apologies for the perceived slam on leftists, I only meant that the NAMBLA line of attack uses "progressive" rhetoric that resonates with the left.

Killing someone is not always wrong. There is justified homicide. Self defense of self or others is such a case where deadly force is a legal right. I was in the Army for five years and mostly worked with special ops troops. I evaluated that for a long time. I did not say that he deserved no punishment but 9 years of a possible ten is excessive.

As to the use of voluntary in voluntary manslaughter, in the legal field specific terms have not only a definition, but elements which make up a given offense or crime. Because of this there is a type of book called a law dictionary that spells all of these out. Black’s Law Dictionary is essentially the ultimate authority in this regard:
According to Black’s Law Dictionary:
Voluntary Manslaughter: Manslaughter committed voluntarily upon a sudden heat of the passions; as if, upon a sudden quarrel, two persons fight, and one of them kills the other. It is the unlawful taking of human life without malice and under circumstances falling short of willful, premeditated, or deliberate intent to kill…
The absence of intention to kill or to commit any unlawful act which might reasonably produce death or great bodily harm is the distinguishing feature between voluntary and involuntary homicide.

In other words, by definition if Aaron Vargas was guilty of committing voluntary manslaughter, the judge had to find an absence of intention or premeditation. I have read numerous cases on sentencing where this type of inconsistency was overturned on appeal. The only reason Vargas’ attorney is unsure of appealing is likely whether the plea deal effectively precludes an appeal.




Edited by catfish86 (06/17/10 10:59 PM)
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#334031 - 06/17/10 11:25 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: catfish86]
sono Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
Hold on Catfish right there pal! There's nothing abou NAMBLA that resonates with the left. Why do you on the right have to bring such nonsense into your discussions? And while we're at it I'd re-examine those christian beliefs of yours if you think killng if sometimes ok. And that's the point, you can't go around killing people, even if you have a "good reason". I know, how leftist and unchristian of me to say such a thing. I cried as I watched the 20/20 report on his situation but you just can't solve problems like that.

Kevin

_________________________
the family
the perp

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#334047 - 06/18/10 08:46 AM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: sono]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Thank you for the apology Catfish I wasn't sure you meant that. I disagree that they use progressive rhetoric. You're trying to use the label formerly applied in positive de>


Edited by kidneythis (06/18/10 09:23 AM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#334070 - 06/18/10 11:38 AM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: kidneythis]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
Actually, the base difference between murder and voluntary manslaughter is premeditated intent to kill. Aaron Vargas, by almost all of the evidence, did not go there intending to kill. Which is why the prosecutor backed off and offered a plea for voluntary manslaughter. Then the judge, citing his determination that Aaron Vargas went there with the premeditated intent to kill, sentenced him based on that. You cannot find someone guilty of a lesser offence then sentence that person based on your belief that he actually committed a greater offense. That is where this judge is out of line.

I did not say he should not receive any punishment, but 9 years is excessive given the mitigating circumstances.

The only doubt about an appeal here is whether the plea deal precludes appeal and if so whether that clause is actually enforceable.

As to whether it is ever OK to kill someone, it often is. Those that say it is never right to kill are like the organizations that put hundreds of thousands of dollars into saving a sea lion and joyfully released it to observe a killer whale kill and eat it mere minutes after its release. History is full of examples of "peaceful" societies that were promptly enslaved and wiped out. As to my being a christian being the reason for my views on killing, there are many christians that disagree with me on that. But>


Edited by catfish86 (06/18/10 11:47 AM)
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#334077 - 06/18/10 12:28 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: catfish86]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
You're all over the place catfish. Now you've moved from thinking intent being used as an adjective for voluntary manslaughter to saying it means premeditated murder.!? What are you doing?
Why he went there, what his intent was when he went there have nothing to do with the sentence, what the judge said and what you complained about ie the use of the word intentional. I had thought you simply misunderstood the word or how it was used but now after being given definitions and exlanations you've moved on to another nonissue as if it were the same subject, trying to make it an issue in this discussion.
The judge when he said there was intent meant that when he pointed the gun at him and pulled the trigger he intended to kill him.

You really have some kind of issue with this case trying to come out I suggest you do some self reflection. Your accusations and assumptions are all distortions of the reality based on whatever thing this has triggered in you not the facts here. I think you want the world to tell you it is OK to kill your perp. That's what it seems like to me.

The sentence is short. He will only serve about 4 years if not less. He got a good deal yes he could have gotten better but he didn't. You can't let people take the law into their own hands and get away with it.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#334088 - 06/18/10 02:16 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: kidneythis]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
I reread the quotes of the judge from several sources. He stated that he went there with the intent of killing McNeil. That meets the criteria of premeditation. The use of intent with regards to manslaughter refers to whether at the moment he pulled the trigger he intended to kill McNeil. The judges reference fully meant premeditation, meaning when Vargas got in the car with the gun, his intention was to kill McNeil. Vargas stated his intention when he got in the car was to scare McNeil with the pistol. According to testimony, McNeil denied abusing anyone just before he was shot. Think about confronting your abuser, would a denial have sparked heated passion?

In the vast majority of premeditated murders, there are serious efforts put into getting away with the crime. First, he used a very rare type of gun which would have been very easy to trace (ball and cap civil war era revolver). He didn't hide his identity from the wife or attempt to intimidate or silence her. He laid the murder weapon, dismantled with his fingerprints all over it on the counter. He then went to a location that would be one of the first places the police would look for him.

I worked with a special ops unit. Those guys studied mass murderers who got away with it for methodology. Trust me, most law enforcement throughout the world are not CSI top guns and of limited motivation. Security and intelligence agencies kill people every day without law enforcement having a clue who did it. It is much easier than you think to a) kill someone and b) get away with it. The DC Sniper is a prime example. Had there not been a vague reference to a previous crime that he had gotten away with simply because the cops were too lazy or cheap to run a fingerprint, those two would never have gotten caught. Simple sniper basics of using a blind and one shot (they drilled a hole in the trunk of an old car to shoot from). Most of his shots were body shots from 50-100 FEET with a scope. I can reliably score a body hit with open sights out to 400 YARDS. I am an average soldier that qualified expert at times but only marksman at others.

Aaron Vargas made NO EFFORT to get away with it so one can only conclude that the evidence indicates a lack of premeditation.

Once you have convicted someone of a lesser offense, a judge CANNOT consider elements of a higher offense not included in the lesser offense in determining the sentencing. That is fairly common and strong precedent in most states. The reason is that the constitutional right to due process does not allow a court to make a determination than disregard the determination in sentencing. If the judge did not believe that Vargas' crime fit the lesser offense, the judge can still negate a plea deal. What he did was accept the plea deal than double cross the defendant at sentencing. Find a lawyer and ask them.



Edited by catfish86 (06/18/10 02:27 PM)
_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#334093 - 06/18/10 04:12 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: catfish86]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
[Q}What is kind of weird is that he was convicted of voluntary manslaughter but as part of his harsh sentencing the judge cited his belief that the killing was intentional.[Q]

I haven't read what you are refering to but this statement above says you are objecting to the judge saying he believed the killing was intentional. Which it was and Aaron plead guilty to that.
Now below this paragraph has a completely different assertion; that assertion being that you think the judge believed Aaron is guilty of premeditated murder.

These are two different things. The second if it is true I think the judge is guilty of misconduct for allowing the plea if he believed a 1st degree murder took place.
As for the denial causing heated reaction? I don't know seems it would be expected. I think it was smoething else in the interaction that set him off. He was thinking of his daughter and the crap this pervert had been saying about her.
The judge gave a sentence within the guidlines your beef is with the guidlines for voluntary manslaughter sentencing. He can use his personal read of the situation to determine the sentence. If he thought Aaron had more or less malice in him he can give 0 time to ten years and any number in between. That is the system.
I happen to think Aaron should have been sentenced to go to a hospital for a few years to get help with his abuse issues and the damage that helped him to devolve into a killer, not prison.

[Q]I reread the quotes of the judge from several sources. He stated that he went there with the intent of killing McNeil. That meets the criteria of premeditation. The use of intent with regards to manslaughter refers to whether at the moment he pulled the trigger he intended to kill McNeil. The judges reference fully meant premeditation, meaning when Vargas got in the car with the gun, his intention was to kill McNeil. Vargas stated his intention when he got in the car was to scare McNeil with the pistol. According to testimony, McNeil denied abusing anyone just before he was shot. Think about confronting your abuser, would a denial have sparked heated passion?[Q]

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#334114 - 06/18/10 09:13 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: kidneythis]
Nony Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 9
A petition is now being circulated to send to California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger asking him to commute Aaron's sentence. Please sign:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-aaron/770311398/taf

Also, a fund has been set up to help Aaron's daughter, Josie. You can contribute here:
http://www.saveaaron.com/

Thank you--the partner of a survivor.


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#334136 - 06/19/10 07:01 AM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: Nony]
catfish86 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/27/09
Posts: 821
Loc: Ohio
Kidney,

I think you finally got what I was saying. The judge accepted a voluntary manslaughter plea deal and convicted him of voluntary manslaughter, meaning the intent to kill was formed instantaneously or suddenly before Aaron pulled the trigger. The judge stated in his sentencing that the reason it was above the normal sentencing guidelines which would have meant probably 5 years and parole in a few months (crediting time already served) if not immediately, was that the judge believed Aaron went to the trailer with the intent to kill. The judge found him guilty of a lesser offence of voluntary murder but then sentenced Aaron based on his belief that he really committed a greater offence. Bottom line is that due process demands you cannot be sentenced for a crime you were not convicted of.

_________________________
God grant me
The Serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The Courage to change the things I can,
And the Wisdom to know the difference.

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#334345 - 06/21/10 04:41 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: catfish86]
Nony Offline
New Here

Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 9
Aaron Vargas needs support and encouragement. It would be wonderful if survivors and others would write to him. His address is:

Aaron Vargas, CDC# AD5532
San Quentin State Prison
West Block 370
San Quentin, CA 94974

www.SaveAaron.com



Thank you.

Nony-the partner of a Survivor


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#334427 - 06/22/10 04:42 PM Re: Aaron vargas [Re: Nony]
onlyakid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
Hopefully the Governator will do the right thing and commute Aaron's sentence.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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