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#33356 - 01/09/03 06:50 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Couldn't find anything on Bette Midler's childhood in any detail. If anyone finds anything relating to CSA or other childhood abuse, please post it here and/or in Music forum. Thanks.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33357 - 01/10/03 04:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Well this topic hit home for me in so many ways.

"God wants you to do this for me"
Where the words Father Ryan said to me when i was 11 YO. Ya he took God's name in evil. I was tring to stop him from taken my paints off but when he said that it got to me. What the hell ,God wanted me to let Father Ryan rape me???????
I was a child and was always told that the priest was to be obeyed. After he started raping me all I could think about was why would God want this to happen to me. After a few moments I started tring to get away from him because MY GOD, Ya MY GOD didn't want this to happen.
My God did hear my crys and sent the housekeeper down to that room in the basement to stop Father Ryan. She keep knocking on the door until Father stopped his evil . I was able to run out of there never to be a altar boy again.
I have believed in MY GOD ever sense that day but couldn't have anything to do with the church. Like others here I have a super hard time being in a church,and when at weddings I always set in the back ready to run out. Spirituality is what it is all about for me and in so many ways god has been in my life since that day. Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#33358 - 01/10/03 10:44 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
"God wants you to do this for me"
Where the words Father Ryan said to me when i was 11 YO. Ya he took God's name in evil. I was tring to stop him from taken my paints off but when he said that it got to me. What the hell ,God wanted me to let Father Ryan rape me???????
If that isn't taking Gods' Name in vain, then I don't know what is! That "priest" usurped God's authority & used it to take control over you!

Muldoon, my friend, I'm so sorry about the horrible things that so-called priest did to you.

Yet I'm glad, and somewhat amazed, that even as you went thru this living nightmare, you were able to make the distinction between the "man of God" (NOT!) and God, your God, as opposed to the "priests'" God, which was something different altogether... \:o

Muldoon, I'm glad this evil man was stopped. I don't wonder that you have a hard time being in a church. Your continuing faith in your God, church or no, is inspiring. Becuz as you obviously know, there is a big difference...

Take care friend

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33359 - 01/10/03 11:24 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey Muldoon,

My perp tricked me into closing my eyes so I couldnt see how he was about to trick me. When he was threatening me afterwards, he was yelling at me for what he told me to do. I said "you told me to!" Even though I couldn't see, so I didn't know what he was tricking me into doing. After I said that he told me that no one would ever know that. I said "God knows". He said "There is no God!".

3 years later I had a really bad athsma attack and I cried out and foolishly assumed I recieved no answer. After that I was an athiest for 12 years. When I think back I used to say "There is no God" probably just like he did. It wasn't easy to live without the idea of a God for that long. (Now I'm 1000 percent sure there is one, its a long story). My conscience wouldn't allow me to do what anything at all anyway.

Anxiety, despair and imposible burdens characterized that time for me, as well as a constant search for any reason to wake up the next morning. This is what it says about that in the bible: Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. 42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."

I was lucky enough to find a really good example of someone who claimed to be a christian, I hope you do to.


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#33360 - 01/10/03 08:07 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Victor Thanks for you words and understanding of my beliefs in not being part of organized churches. It makes me lonely at time when I see others who get so much love from their faiths. Maybe someday that can be part of my world but not now.
Les-Angry
Quote:
I said "God knows". He said "There is no God!".
I am so sorry that you went through so much of you life with no god but you now have a full faith in Your GOD. Thanks for all your quote from the bible,I don't read the book put i enjoy your imput to our discussions. Below our some more of my throught on GOD

I have always had great respect for all spiritual beliefs. The nuns and me use to get into big arguments about their bullshit about only Catholicís going to heaven. Ya back in the early 60.s the nuns would tell us that only THE TRUE BELIVERS (Catholic) would go to heaven and we should try to convert our none catholic friends so they would be up there with us. I would tell the nuns that my God would let all GOOD people go his heaven.

I grew to believe in the Beliefs of the American Indians, which gave me some inner peace and hope for my life.
"We want to know Christianity through our ancient ways, not just through the ways of non-Indian. We want to believe that what we know within us is true. To be forced to believe otherwise is to destroy what we are."
From the book, Land of the Four Directions about the Indians of Maine.
It angered me to learn what the Christian faiths where doing to kill Indian spiritual beliefs. This just drove me farther away from the Christian churches.
Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#33361 - 01/10/03 10:10 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey Muldoon,

I think those nuns may have meant well, but they don't represent the views of their church. Here are the official words on the subject. They are taken from the most recent Catechism of the Catholic Church. The words regarding this subject were based on the Vatican II council which took place in the early '60's at the same time as those conversations.

Discussions on the subject are included in chapters 839 to 845 (specifically in chapter 843) in the Catechism:

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html#Apostolic

I'll paste them here in case you cant get to the website:

Quote:

The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[332]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[333]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334]
I dont know what those nuns were thinking, maybe they truely believed that and thought they were saving you. It violates Matthew 7 to jump to conclusions about thier motives. Maybe this quote from chapter 844 of the catechism applies, who knows:

Quote:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator.
I think maybe in a nutshell they are saying: "cant we all just get along?"

Mo Healing


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#33362 - 01/11/03 03:50 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I'm not here to be corrected. It is my heart that needs healing. For that to happen, my heart must feel safe. My heart does not feel safer just because words have been written. Just because something is written somewhere, it doesn't make it so. I'm here to express the pain of my experience. There are still plenty of people who say "God" has taken away their pain so they don't need therapy, then go on to inflict misery on the hearts of othere. I also believe that 3 therapy sessions is not going to cure the results of profound trauma. There are still people acting on pain from their histories and passing this pain on to others, then justifying it. The church isn't the only entity that needs a call to accountability for the harm done to children.


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#33363 - 01/11/03 05:28 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
RJD, my brother, your post is so right on in so many ways.

Quote:
I'm not here to be corrected. It is my heart that needs healing.
This is something that even we as survivors can have difficulty remembering about each other, our ourselves.

Me, I still can get pretty aggravated with people who try to fill me with info & advice as tho just the "right" (if it is right) knowledge about something will help me feel better about it.

Sometimes I've got more knowledge than I can handle. It may make me feel better, or worse.

The right info can help when given at a time & in a way that it can be received. For me that usually means when I ask for it, and not when I'm venting feelings.

It's like people trying to comfort me & help me feel better may not help much when I'm asking for info about say where a support group meeting is or for some book titles about dealing with flashbacks. Well intended, but of limited value, & sometimes even irritating.

Quote:
There are still plenty of people who say "God" has taken away their pain so they don't need therapy, then go on to inflict misery on the hearts of othere. I also believe that 3 therapy sessions is not going to cure the results of profound trauma. There are still people acting on pain from their histories and passing this pain on to others, then justifying it.
Neither spirituality or psychology is a magic pill or pre>
_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33364 - 01/13/03 12:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Ross Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Vancouver, BC Canada
Dear RJD:

As a survivor of physical and sexual abuse by Catholic clergy I appreciate your views and anger at the TV episode. I have spent many years of my life reflecting on what happened to me and God's role in it. I was abused as an inmate in a catholic reformatory as a young teenager. For many years I carried an immense hatred for the church, catholic priests and other such elements.

I do not think that the district's writers or producers really understand the complexity of what sexual abuse does to victims. I am being polite but their point of view seemed idiotic as described and portrayed.

I personally believe that any level of forgiveness, "backing off" or "letting" issues "go" is the sacred property of the victim. The victim should decide if, when and how. Others should not intrude on that issue without respect and sensitivity; and then only with permission. So many well meaning others have said we should let go and get on with our lives. I find it particularly galling when a person uses the bible to suggest that course of action.

I notice that Jesus was pretty loving but even he took a moment or two to drive the money changers out of the temple for committing such an obvious error. I have reached the point in my life where I am not pissed off at God as much as I was. In addition, I refuse to let those that abused me escape any level of responsibility for their actions under the technicality that "God made everything". I may sound casual here but that point was very difficult for me to deal with for a long time. I have made choices as to what position or feelings I have maintained towards my abusers. They are mine alone and although I had help to understand my feelings; I as the victim was in charge of decisions regarding forgiveness or letting go. I also must note that I view justice and forgiveness as two different things in regards to child abuse.

I feel each of us must come to our own conclusions as to the issue of forgiveness or any level of acceptance that it happened, etc. I am grateful I had some help to sort it out but my therapist was very creful about the process and never pushed or led the issue. I also learned a few things in the process:

1. My anger was like a stallion. A thrill to ride but often in charge and out of control.
2. I rode my anger out of many good and bad places until it was all I had left to have or to give.
3. I still ride my anger at times. It is more of a gelding now. It is fast and fun to ride at times but it does not fight so much with my other rides like loving and being loved. It also knows to head to the barn sooner and I don't have to walk home so much after getting thrown off.
4. When I pull on the reins of my anger it now responds quicker. As a result it has been a while since I have been dragged along fences, thrown into trees or tangled up in wires.

Sincerely

Ross


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#33365 - 01/13/03 01:01 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Ross I love this throught and will have to remember it next time the anger gets to me.
Quote:
It also knows to head to the barn sooner and I don't have to walk home so much after getting thrown off.
Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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