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#33316 - 01/06/03 03:25 AM The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I’m furious! I could spit bile I’m so angry! Where do they get off telling a survivor to forgive and thumping the Bible to do it. I dont want to be told to forgive by an actor who is condescending to me and using biblical quotes to prove he is right in a so-called “intimate moment.’. He says something about God, not man, is what the faith is about. Well no shit Shakespeare. What I heard him say is that survivors should back off and just forgive. What a bunch of religious/corporate/political crap. Survivors don’t need to be told to forgive before any accountability has been established. I’m still waiting to see some true contrition, and it hasn’t happened even yet. They are fuckin clueless. Look at church history, talk about ethnic cleansing and genocide and callous disregard for human life. They wrote the book that is followed by some fundamentalists today. This church has been about oppression masked as love. When I was in high school I saw a nun grab a boy, not older then 10, by the hair and slam him against the wall so hard he bounced off the wall and continued to fall down two flights of stairs. I saw another nun with a look of disgust and shock when she was suddenly not getting resistance as she was shaking my classmates head by his hair. She was left still holding a clump of his hair in her fist. They would sometimes say “we will someday look back on these times as the best times of our lives.” It doesn’t take much of a crap detector here. They got away with that kind of crap all the time. “The boys must have been doing something wrong” is the answer we would have gotten if we complained. What it was doing was teaching one-upmanship in terms of disrespect. I have no use for any organized religion. The messages were “do as I say not as I do.”

This period is about grief for survivors. Anger is a stage of grief. Before I moved on, a righteous anger is what I needed. I need to hold my perps accountable for this pain that lasts a life time. Healing does not make the hurt go away, it just hurts a little less as time goes on, but it still H-U-R-T-S and it was a life crippling event that was hell working to feel “recovered”. If I want to be angry at a God, I have every right to be. It’s called G-R-I-E-F you plastic Hollywood assholes!!!!!! This God shit is pissing me off. I have done some really beautiful healing work without God being in my recovery vocabulary. Put it in your plastic incense burner and shove it. I don’t need any
joy-aholics telling me to look at the bright side. Sonething I said a long time ago was,”if this jesus were in my family he would have fucked me too.” Don’t even say "he cried with me." That just makes me want to beat the crap out of someone.

The Church should have been the leader in human understanding eons ago, even before Freud but instead, as usual, it it has fought science all the way or anything that might cause a slip in its grip. This is not the first time it has become complicit in history.


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#33317 - 01/06/03 12:57 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
To RJD - AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO READS THIS.

I have decided to leave this on the forum and unedited for now. I wont even lock the post for now.

I realise that some people might well be upset, but please don't let it become a flaming session if at all possible.

My view is it's an expression of RJD's anger, and based on the good supportive, and thoughtful, posts he usually writes I hope this is a vent - not at individuals here.

Before I decided to do this I read most of his other posts, and I'll quote from two of the posts RJD has written on the 'Forgiveness' topic.

Quote:
Then I read somewhere that in order to be able to let something go, you first have to have it in your posession. = So if it is not in your posession you have nothing to let go of. = You have to have anger before you can let go of it. You have reason for your anger so lets look at why it is there. Then you have a choice whether anger is going to rule your life, or are you going to claim your life for yourself, with anger only being a portion of it.

I’ve held on to this rage partially because I don’t know what life would look like without it. As archnut says,” I’m dead without it..” It has been a concious part of my recovery to find a respectful place for anger and not have it be a focal point of my life. My anger kept me shut down emotionally (understandably) and numbness substituted for my emotional life. Don’t hurt, don’t be angry mentras by nature also shut out feelings of joy, grief, nurturing, and being nurtured, and more. I guess I could say that beside my anger, I also stored my pain in my back.
Anger and forgivness are difficult subjects that we all face, and the circumstances of our lives make us reflect them in different ways.
So rather than just lift this post I would much prefer to see it as a way of expressing the anger and frustration that so many of us feel.

Thanks
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33318 - 01/06/03 01:52 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Thanks for that tempering Dave.

Sometimes art isn't "pretty" either, even though it may be masterful.

Recovery can get downright ugly, and I can see beauty in that.

In no way do I mean any of it as a slam on spirituality. I do mean it as a challange to accountability. If the image of Jesus crying for your pain works for you and is comforting that's wonderful, and I encourage it. It is just not me. It just trips my anger. I do not want to add to anyone's barriers to healing. I'm just speaking my truths.


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#33319 - 01/06/03 01:59 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
i believe, so i have my own take on things. Christ warned us that many would come in His name, but that he didnt send them. yes, there have been many evils committed in the name of God and church, but He is not in them. we are to meassure people by thier fruits. if thier fruits are evil, opression or any negative thing, i think it tells a Christian all they need to know. i am sorry church has come to mean such things to you, for i have found strength and comfort there. i cannot imagine healing without believing in a higher purpose and an ultimate justice. it must be hard for you. no wonder you are filled with such anger. i hope you find peace and happiness. it upsets me that these people who are supposed to represent a loving and forgiving God have done these things, and have hardened you so much.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#33320 - 01/06/03 03:48 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I think the hardening is less about me and more to do with the church. To have such anger has to do with having great heart and care. Indifference is about hardening of the heart.
Thank you for making my point so well zadok1 to measure people by their fruits, and I do believe in the spirit of Christianity. It is a wonderous thing, this spirit, that I believe can be found in many religions. I believe the spirit of the law can be far different than the letter of the law.

I have found an immense peace in my heart on my recovery path. What you see above is about feelings. It is the feeling of a wounded heart that cries out for accountability for transgressions by indifferent hearts. They are hearts that continue to hold on to their own indifference.

Zadok1 your words are comforting to me because I know they are from your heart.

I don't think my beliefs are too far out of line from yours. I guess I believe in the "WHAT IFS." What if there was a genuine loving father who really cared. And what if I could learn to accept that love. As a loving father I would just hold my son who was in pain just like I held my daughters. I would accept my daughters verbal expressions of anger as evidence that they really cared about something, and that I needed to listen. If I shut their anger down, they would also have to shut other feelings down, including the freedom to express their love. I really wouldn't be shutting off their anger, it would just shift to a different mode of expression. I would much rather hear their anger verbally then to have them act it out. Because of this, I know a loving father wants to hear my anger. The word God is missing here from what I would expect you would see belongs here. I'm just not there yet. Perhaps I'm still at the bargaining stage of my grief work around these issues. As a loving father (tears are puddling my eyes again) I would think it was just wonderful wherever my children are emotionally, as long as they know they are loved. Feelings need no judgement, they just are. I believe they can be said to be a “God given gift” that we need to learn their place in our lives. They help us understand the “spirit” of love.


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#33321 - 01/06/03 04:17 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
michaelb Offline
Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 211
Loc: cincinnati, ohio
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU......The "church" has initiated many of human beings worst periods in history....I'm not against religion, if that is what you choose to believe, but organized religion seems to be very lacking for me.

My belief system is really lacking when it comes to religion. I have tried going to church, but it simply hurts too much. I know I was at a wedding a few weeks ago when the priest started talking about God loving all of us...I got up and bolted out of the church and could not go back inside..This is not the first time this has happened to me...I sure as hell do not think God loves me, if he did, how did he allow such horrible things happen to me, why have I been so miserable for so long???????

I think abuse robbed me of the possibility of believing in God...How can i believe in a God that would allow such terrible things to happen to me and to other people?????? If there is a God, he has a very cruel side to him/her.....

michael


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#33322 - 01/06/03 04:39 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
RJD ...a tough hitting post. I can understand your rage. It sure does pose a whole bunch of questions about the nature of God and religion. I guess I look at religion & God as being very separate concepts, the former being a human structure, made up of men & women who have the franchise to choose, and sometimes they choose badly, this franchise to choose was God's greatest gift to us, I believe. However, God, I believe is all about spirituality and universal love and values. He/she is what is best about all of us, what we aspire to be, the innate truth that is in us all, what we know in our hearts to be right and just.

I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how it affected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal. This is how I have come to think of them. I feel sorry for them in a way. So forgiving them would only be useful in helping me, helping me put aside my own anger and get on with my life. Cause.. unless I put aside my own grief and anger...I am being victimized every day. Victimized by my own history. Peace RJD...Andrew


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#33323 - 01/06/03 04:52 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Andrew

Quote:
I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how it affected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal.
Every time I see a documetary on TV, read an eyewitness account of abuse, talk with survivors who have confronted their abusers, this is the response I have come to expect.
They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught.

Our anger at them is wholly understandable, as is our lack of forgivness.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33324 - 01/06/03 05:28 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Just a couple of thoughts:

Ghandi is supposed to have said something like "I have come to admire Jesus Christ and His teachings. What a pity He has so few true followers."

If I were to look to TV or movies to learn how to be a loving man I would go up to the next beautiful woman I see and say: "Wow, you're beautiful, lets F***, because that is exactly the way relationships are shown on most of TV and movies today.I just have to believe that in reality it must not be that way.

To think that the way some director shows religion is the way it is for all people at all times would be the same kind of thing.

I absolutely HATE the tv show M*A*S*H. In that show the physicians and surgeon did magic every week between their bouts of shenannigans. The only real idiot on the show was the Catholic priest.
FU mr. director.

There is human debris all over the world due to the idiocy of so called men of God. Jesus has every right to be rageing angry at the way we have perverted him and his message. At the same time there are at least a couple of sincere people, and at least a couple dedicated clergy somewhere in the universe.

It certainly is good to express the feelings we have, we just do not need to be blinded by them.

Peace to us all.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#33325 - 01/06/03 05:58 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I think a lot of people do things totally contrary to the wishes of God in his name. Here are a few:

1. The crusades
2. the 9-11 highjackers
3. the nun in RJD's post
4. the salem witch trials
5. the spanish inquisition
etc.
etc.

I also think about movies like Indiana Jones where he pretty much breaks every one of the ten commandments to get hold of the box that contains them. What an idiot! I don't think God wants you to shhot some guy so you can get the box that holds the tablet that says "thou shalt not kill". Same thing with the third Indiana Jones Movie.

By the same token though:

1. The "son of Sam" serial murderer blamed his dog (who was named Sam).
2. The Manson family blamed the Beatles for writing "helter skelter" which supposedly caused them to kill.
3. The guy who shot president Reagan supposedly did it for Jodie Foster.

I dont blame Sam (the dog) for serial murders, I don't blame the Beatles for the manson family murders, I don't blame Jodie Foster for president Reagan's attack and I don't blame God for stupid things people do and blame on him.

I agree with this statement:
Quote:
Ghandi is supposed to have said something like "I have come to admire Jesus Christ and His teachings. What a pity He has so few true followers."
Those nuns were not followers of God when they did those things. If you listen to his words he condemns people like that, and people who did stuff like I mentioned above supposedly in his name. I used to blame God for stuff like that, then I read the bible and went to church and listened and found out he doesnt condone any of that stuff.

This is something most people dont do:
Quote:
Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words.
-St. Francis of Assisi

Most people think that if you go to church and listen or pick up the bible and read, you are going to find all the stupid behaviors of people who claim to follow him I listed above, but you will really find quite the opposite. I was shocked when I actually sat down and read the bible and saw what Jesus said to do after 32 years of watching people who claimed to follow him (and didn't) do the opposite.

Now that I think about it, Jesus himself even talked about the guys who claimed to follow God and didn't. He said something like: "Do as they say, but not as they do."

Quote:
Can't we all just get along?
I think we can

peace
Mo_Healing (Les_Angry)


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