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#33316 - 01/06/03 03:25 AM The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I’m furious! I could spit bile I’m so angry! Where do they get off telling a survivor to forgive and thumping the Bible to do it. I dont want to be told to forgive by an actor who is condescending to me and using biblical quotes to prove he is right in a so-called “intimate moment.’. He says something about God, not man, is what the faith is about. Well no shit Shakespeare. What I heard him say is that survivors should back off and just forgive. What a bunch of religious/corporate/political crap. Survivors don’t need to be told to forgive before any accountability has been established. I’m still waiting to see some true contrition, and it hasn’t happened even yet. They are fuckin clueless. Look at church history, talk about ethnic cleansing and genocide and callous disregard for human life. They wrote the book that is followed by some fundamentalists today. This church has been about oppression masked as love. When I was in high school I saw a nun grab a boy, not older then 10, by the hair and slam him against the wall so hard he bounced off the wall and continued to fall down two flights of stairs. I saw another nun with a look of disgust and shock when she was suddenly not getting resistance as she was shaking my classmates head by his hair. She was left still holding a clump of his hair in her fist. They would sometimes say “we will someday look back on these times as the best times of our lives.” It doesn’t take much of a crap detector here. They got away with that kind of crap all the time. “The boys must have been doing something wrong” is the answer we would have gotten if we complained. What it was doing was teaching one-upmanship in terms of disrespect. I have no use for any organized religion. The messages were “do as I say not as I do.”

This period is about grief for survivors. Anger is a stage of grief. Before I moved on, a righteous anger is what I needed. I need to hold my perps accountable for this pain that lasts a life time. Healing does not make the hurt go away, it just hurts a little less as time goes on, but it still H-U-R-T-S and it was a life crippling event that was hell working to feel “recovered”. If I want to be angry at a God, I have every right to be. It’s called G-R-I-E-F you plastic Hollywood assholes!!!!!! This God shit is pissing me off. I have done some really beautiful healing work without God being in my recovery vocabulary. Put it in your plastic incense burner and shove it. I don’t need any
joy-aholics telling me to look at the bright side. Sonething I said a long time ago was,”if this jesus were in my family he would have fucked me too.” Don’t even say "he cried with me." That just makes me want to beat the crap out of someone.

The Church should have been the leader in human understanding eons ago, even before Freud but instead, as usual, it it has fought science all the way or anything that might cause a slip in its grip. This is not the first time it has become complicit in history.


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#33317 - 01/06/03 12:57 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
To RJD - AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO READS THIS.

I have decided to leave this on the forum and unedited for now. I wont even lock the post for now.

I realise that some people might well be upset, but please don't let it become a flaming session if at all possible.

My view is it's an expression of RJD's anger, and based on the good supportive, and thoughtful, posts he usually writes I hope this is a vent - not at individuals here.

Before I decided to do this I read most of his other posts, and I'll quote from two of the posts RJD has written on the 'Forgiveness' topic.

Quote:
Then I read somewhere that in order to be able to let something go, you first have to have it in your posession. = So if it is not in your posession you have nothing to let go of. = You have to have anger before you can let go of it. You have reason for your anger so lets look at why it is there. Then you have a choice whether anger is going to rule your life, or are you going to claim your life for yourself, with anger only being a portion of it.

I’ve held on to this rage partially because I don’t know what life would look like without it. As archnut says,” I’m dead without it..” It has been a concious part of my recovery to find a respectful place for anger and not have it be a focal point of my life. My anger kept me shut down emotionally (understandably) and numbness substituted for my emotional life. Don’t hurt, don’t be angry mentras by nature also shut out feelings of joy, grief, nurturing, and being nurtured, and more. I guess I could say that beside my anger, I also stored my pain in my back.
Anger and forgivness are difficult subjects that we all face, and the circumstances of our lives make us reflect them in different ways.
So rather than just lift this post I would much prefer to see it as a way of expressing the anger and frustration that so many of us feel.

Thanks
Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33318 - 01/06/03 01:52 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Thanks for that tempering Dave.

Sometimes art isn't "pretty" either, even though it may be masterful.

Recovery can get downright ugly, and I can see beauty in that.

In no way do I mean any of it as a slam on spirituality. I do mean it as a challange to accountability. If the image of Jesus crying for your pain works for you and is comforting that's wonderful, and I encourage it. It is just not me. It just trips my anger. I do not want to add to anyone's barriers to healing. I'm just speaking my truths.


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#33319 - 01/06/03 01:59 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
i believe, so i have my own take on things. Christ warned us that many would come in His name, but that he didnt send them. yes, there have been many evils committed in the name of God and church, but He is not in them. we are to meassure people by thier fruits. if thier fruits are evil, opression or any negative thing, i think it tells a Christian all they need to know. i am sorry church has come to mean such things to you, for i have found strength and comfort there. i cannot imagine healing without believing in a higher purpose and an ultimate justice. it must be hard for you. no wonder you are filled with such anger. i hope you find peace and happiness. it upsets me that these people who are supposed to represent a loving and forgiving God have done these things, and have hardened you so much.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#33320 - 01/06/03 03:48 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I think the hardening is less about me and more to do with the church. To have such anger has to do with having great heart and care. Indifference is about hardening of the heart.
Thank you for making my point so well zadok1 to measure people by their fruits, and I do believe in the spirit of Christianity. It is a wonderous thing, this spirit, that I believe can be found in many religions. I believe the spirit of the law can be far different than the letter of the law.

I have found an immense peace in my heart on my recovery path. What you see above is about feelings. It is the feeling of a wounded heart that cries out for accountability for transgressions by indifferent hearts. They are hearts that continue to hold on to their own indifference.

Zadok1 your words are comforting to me because I know they are from your heart.

I don't think my beliefs are too far out of line from yours. I guess I believe in the "WHAT IFS." What if there was a genuine loving father who really cared. And what if I could learn to accept that love. As a loving father I would just hold my son who was in pain just like I held my daughters. I would accept my daughters verbal expressions of anger as evidence that they really cared about something, and that I needed to listen. If I shut their anger down, they would also have to shut other feelings down, including the freedom to express their love. I really wouldn't be shutting off their anger, it would just shift to a different mode of expression. I would much rather hear their anger verbally then to have them act it out. Because of this, I know a loving father wants to hear my anger. The word God is missing here from what I would expect you would see belongs here. I'm just not there yet. Perhaps I'm still at the bargaining stage of my grief work around these issues. As a loving father (tears are puddling my eyes again) I would think it was just wonderful wherever my children are emotionally, as long as they know they are loved. Feelings need no judgement, they just are. I believe they can be said to be a “God given gift” that we need to learn their place in our lives. They help us understand the “spirit” of love.


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#33321 - 01/06/03 04:17 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
michaelb Offline
Member

Registered: 04/21/01
Posts: 211
Loc: cincinnati, ohio
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU......The "church" has initiated many of human beings worst periods in history....I'm not against religion, if that is what you choose to believe, but organized religion seems to be very lacking for me.

My belief system is really lacking when it comes to religion. I have tried going to church, but it simply hurts too much. I know I was at a wedding a few weeks ago when the priest started talking about God loving all of us...I got up and bolted out of the church and could not go back inside..This is not the first time this has happened to me...I sure as hell do not think God loves me, if he did, how did he allow such horrible things happen to me, why have I been so miserable for so long???????

I think abuse robbed me of the possibility of believing in God...How can i believe in a God that would allow such terrible things to happen to me and to other people?????? If there is a God, he has a very cruel side to him/her.....

michael


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#33322 - 01/06/03 04:39 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
RJD ...a tough hitting post. I can understand your rage. It sure does pose a whole bunch of questions about the nature of God and religion. I guess I look at religion & God as being very separate concepts, the former being a human structure, made up of men & women who have the franchise to choose, and sometimes they choose badly, this franchise to choose was God's greatest gift to us, I believe. However, God, I believe is all about spirituality and universal love and values. He/she is what is best about all of us, what we aspire to be, the innate truth that is in us all, what we know in our hearts to be right and just.

I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how it affected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal. This is how I have come to think of them. I feel sorry for them in a way. So forgiving them would only be useful in helping me, helping me put aside my own anger and get on with my life. Cause.. unless I put aside my own grief and anger...I am being victimized every day. Victimized by my own history. Peace RJD...Andrew


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#33323 - 01/06/03 04:52 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Andrew

Quote:
I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how it affected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal.
Every time I see a documetary on TV, read an eyewitness account of abuse, talk with survivors who have confronted their abusers, this is the response I have come to expect.
They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught.

Our anger at them is wholly understandable, as is our lack of forgivness.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33324 - 01/06/03 05:28 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Just a couple of thoughts:

Ghandi is supposed to have said something like "I have come to admire Jesus Christ and His teachings. What a pity He has so few true followers."

If I were to look to TV or movies to learn how to be a loving man I would go up to the next beautiful woman I see and say: "Wow, you're beautiful, lets F***, because that is exactly the way relationships are shown on most of TV and movies today.I just have to believe that in reality it must not be that way.

To think that the way some director shows religion is the way it is for all people at all times would be the same kind of thing.

I absolutely HATE the tv show M*A*S*H. In that show the physicians and surgeon did magic every week between their bouts of shenannigans. The only real idiot on the show was the Catholic priest.
FU mr. director.

There is human debris all over the world due to the idiocy of so called men of God. Jesus has every right to be rageing angry at the way we have perverted him and his message. At the same time there are at least a couple of sincere people, and at least a couple dedicated clergy somewhere in the universe.

It certainly is good to express the feelings we have, we just do not need to be blinded by them.

Peace to us all.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#33325 - 01/06/03 05:58 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
I think a lot of people do things totally contrary to the wishes of God in his name. Here are a few:

1. The crusades
2. the 9-11 highjackers
3. the nun in RJD's post
4. the salem witch trials
5. the spanish inquisition
etc.
etc.

I also think about movies like Indiana Jones where he pretty much breaks every one of the ten commandments to get hold of the box that contains them. What an idiot! I don't think God wants you to shhot some guy so you can get the box that holds the tablet that says "thou shalt not kill". Same thing with the third Indiana Jones Movie.

By the same token though:

1. The "son of Sam" serial murderer blamed his dog (who was named Sam).
2. The Manson family blamed the Beatles for writing "helter skelter" which supposedly caused them to kill.
3. The guy who shot president Reagan supposedly did it for Jodie Foster.

I dont blame Sam (the dog) for serial murders, I don't blame the Beatles for the manson family murders, I don't blame Jodie Foster for president Reagan's attack and I don't blame God for stupid things people do and blame on him.

I agree with this statement:
Quote:
Ghandi is supposed to have said something like "I have come to admire Jesus Christ and His teachings. What a pity He has so few true followers."
Those nuns were not followers of God when they did those things. If you listen to his words he condemns people like that, and people who did stuff like I mentioned above supposedly in his name. I used to blame God for stuff like that, then I read the bible and went to church and listened and found out he doesnt condone any of that stuff.

This is something most people dont do:
Quote:
Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words.
-St. Francis of Assisi

Most people think that if you go to church and listen or pick up the bible and read, you are going to find all the stupid behaviors of people who claim to follow him I listed above, but you will really find quite the opposite. I was shocked when I actually sat down and read the bible and saw what Jesus said to do after 32 years of watching people who claimed to follow him (and didn't) do the opposite.

Now that I think about it, Jesus himself even talked about the guys who claimed to follow God and didn't. He said something like: "Do as they say, but not as they do."

Quote:
Can't we all just get along?
I think we can

peace
Mo_Healing (Les_Angry)


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#33326 - 01/06/03 06:56 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I agree with you Dave and Andrew when you wrote

"I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are
beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how itaffected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal.

"Every time I see a documetary on TV, read an eyewitness account of abuse, talk with survivors who have confronted their abusers, this is the response I have come to expect.
They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught."

To me this the whole point of holding perpetrators accountable. Part of why they don’t
get it is because they bought the lies of their own perpetrator(s)/ repressors. (It doesn’t
have to be only overt SA here as I see it.) It is confusing to them that they should be
held accountable because their own perpetrators got away with it. ( I would wager that
their own perpetrator could not be disagreed with or face their own “death” as victims
of their perpetrators.) This forces a dilema for them that they will have to face their
own pain and monumental terror or continue to shore up the lies they were taught..
Somewhere deep down inside is the real truth that they felt they had to ignore no
matter what the cost.
Confrontation with too little place to hide from the truth is what is needed. It is even the
most loving thing that can be done for them. This confrontation is not about getting
even, it is about showing what accountability looks like.

I do believe they (the perpetrators and the church)are clueless.

With that accountability they might see the devastation caused by their own
perpetrator, and the perpetuation of this devastation that they continued on to the
lives of those they have victimized. Until they can see this, forgiveness of them is upsurd. Forgiving my own vulnerability is the least and most I can do.

But then again what about, “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” in terms of the church too. Like with my mother I do not have to be around while they spread their poison on themselves .

I believe that the process of holding perpetrators accountable is also healing for
survivors who have not yet found their voice and even those of us who have. Putting
the issue on the table also reduces at least some of the power of a perpetrator. They
hold all the cards as long as we are keeping the secret.

We all know the power of the
wizard behind the curtain is reduced as long as we declare his sighting.

Putting the issues on
the table also gives us a chance to identify the problem so that something can then be
done about it.

I hope my sentences are not too convoluted to understand. (I will be re-reading it i’m sure.)


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#33327 - 01/06/03 07:04 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Mark S Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 130
Loc: England
RJD

Your post really hit home with me. Your words so eloquently put. I have been searching for spirituality through-out my recovery.

Whilst I have have said on numerous occassions I wasn't abused by a priest but by another member of society that should be trusted, a male nurse. I have tired the standard religions only to find that I couldn't trust what they were preaching. Knowing there were so many BAD people preaching in the name of God, who could I trust? Who could I let see the real/vulnerable me?

I moved on to Buddhism and found their preaching even more alarming. They constantly run anger workshops on how to let your anger go, how to live a happy life. How anger serves no perpose and if you reach your goal you are assured rebirth in a higher life. Well IF I believed that I would be fine, I would be sure to come back a Buddha. You see and this is where it gets difficult for me and I start crying. I have NEVER been angry at my abuser. I have never been angry at anyone else other than me fullstop. I was angry at me for a long time but my abuser no!!! I have now curtailed the anger towards me, so in a Buddhist eyes I should be so happy. The only problem is I'm desperatly un-happy. I used to be a memeber of a disabilty forum much like this, but if I had a bad day and said so I was told I was whinging, to get on with my life. These are the cards that God dealt us and I should be gratfull. But should I be gratefull? Am I whinging when I say I'm not ok? Why did God see fit to deal this hand of cards to me/us?

I read your posts and the subsequent replies several times and each time my eyes welled up, initially for the distress in your initial post but then in the wonderment that your anger is part of your recovery. And judging from these post you understand that well.

I haven't given up on spirituallity, I will in time try other religions Hinduism and Shiekism are on the list. However I'm not setting myself a target and in the end maybe I follow my own spitiually and call it Markism, though it sounds rather like Marxism.

Thank you again RJD for a thougt provoking post and thanks Dave for having the courage and insight to allow the post to stay.

Mark


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#33328 - 01/06/03 07:13 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
For me my religious upbringing was driven out of me at the time the abuse took place, and I've never gone looking for it again.

My parents were Methodists, regualsr church goers and genuine believers.
I was raised that way and went to Sunday school until I was 11 yo.

Shortly after I went to boarding school and the abuse began. At that school we were marched in along crocodile line the two miles to church every Sunday, no exceptions.
And I can distinctly remember making the concious decision during these services that God didn't apply to me, so I would just sit and stand during the service out of conformity - something I still do at weddings and funerals, politness I suppose.

But it was a sudden, and surprisingly thought out thing for me as an 11yo to do, and I do remember it happening.
Maybe I thought that I was different, special ? That's what they were telling anyway.
Did I also think it was 'sinful'and that I had gone so far adrift I was beyond being a part of religion ?

Whatever the exact thoughts were the result was final, religion means nothing to me now - and it something I have thought about.

I have had a friendship with a Catholic Father, and I've seen my father in law return to the Catholic church and gain huge comfort from them.
And I know many of you here gain from your religion.
So I cant knock it, but neither can I believe in it.

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33329 - 01/06/03 07:43 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Matt

Quote:
" Offend me once, shame on the perp, offend me twice, shame on me & the perp if i know better what this person is doing to me, offend me three times, shame on me and the perp & law enforcement & who ever else might be involved.
That is just the truth........

Mo Healing
It's impossible to disagreew with your points about evil deeds, you're right - it's easy to blame something like a song. Unfortunately this easy blame is pounced on by lawyers and some - what can I call them ? lame brained do-gooders. How often do we have to suffer them offering stuff like that asa 'genuine' reason for evil behaviour.
If you want a good de>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33330 - 01/06/03 09:50 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Mark S Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 130
Loc: England
Dave.

I too watched the programme on Janathan King and his partners in his crimes. I found his attitude chilling. Always thinking of his losses without a second thought for his victims. Another remarkable resemblance to this (showbusiness) and religious institutions was the amount of alledged other celebrities who were in the know.

I also watched a recent programme on our BBC2 which followed peodaphiles and tried to get to the route cause of their actions. At first I feared this was going to be sensational journalism but it was far from it, Once again it highlighted just how sick these peolpe are. One man justified his actions of abuseing a multitude of children (both girls and boys) because female circumsision is worse. What planet does he come from. Abuse of anyone by anyone is wrong!!!! I agree people like him will never show remorse and the longer they are safly locked away the better.

I have one query though. My abuser (Male Nurse) risked being caught. He would often leave machines on till the alarm went off. I mean the machines that record heart rate, oxygen saturation etc. I know he involved another member of staff who worked as his look out. (She had befriended me and I only realised her involvement through dreams and therapy) But did he know what he was doing was wrong and wanted to be caught or was he so confident of himself. I feel the later is more likely.

Mark


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#33331 - 01/07/03 12:13 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Whew!

As I read the posts in this thread over & over, I am thankful that it is here and that it has remained here undisturbed to this point. The words of woe & wonder, anger & awe, in these posts are incredible. Thank you RJD for starting it, Dave for leaving it, and all of you for contributing to it so meaningfully.

I grew up in a very not only atheistic but anti-Christian home in which I was also fiercely abused
thruout childhood. Then at 13 I'm placed in a Baptist children's home & am going to church 3-4 times a week. As soon as I got outta there I got outta church too, until I became a Christian 5 years later.

One of the big ongoing struggles of my faith journey has been in trying to separate Jesus Christ Who Is perfect from the Church His people who are imperfect, then separating that Church from the people who go to church.

The Church is not buildings or an organization or institution, tho these may be part of it. The Church in my belief is the faithful people of God thru faith in Jesus Christ. Everybody who goes to church is not Christian anymore than everyone who goes to watch a Super Bowl is Super Bowl Champs! And even Christians are not perfect--I know I'm not!

None of this of course is any excuse for abusive church organizations, churchgoers, or even professing Christians who go astray from the life & teachings of Jesus Christ; nor is it intended to be.

I full well relate to & empathize with those who have anger & misunderstandings with God, with Jesus Christ, with the Church, with Christians, with churchgoers, with church organizations. I've had more than my share of that anger & misunderstanding, both as an agnostic & as a Christian.

I have more questions than answers, so I offer no answers. I do still have my faith, but I sure don't expect anyone else to have it. We must each come to our own faith, in whoever or whatever or nothing, in our own way, for ourselves. That is the right of each individual that must be respected.

I am grateful for the open sharing & mutual respect being shown in this dialog on such a controversial matter as religion.

I wonder if we would do as well with politics!?...(I know, let's not push our luck!) ;\) \:D

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33332 - 01/07/03 12:26 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
"As for perps being rehabilitated, that is a joke in itself, any therapist who says a sex offender is rehabilitated and won't ever re-offend is a " QUACK " and i have ocean front property to sell them in iraq."

Matt, you sure do have a way with words. I don't think we can say for sure a sex offender is rehabilitated & won't reoffend any more than we can say, for instance, an alcoholic or drug addict is cured & will never drink or shoot up again.

"Organized religion is a joke, to those who want to bible thump, i have a church in ethiopia to sell them, this way they can preach to the air because all they preach is hot air why not add more to where it belongs."

All I can do, beyond chuckle at this \:D , is agree,
and offer a bit of my vast fortune :rolleyes: to the windbags so they can buy that church & go somewhere where they won't do so much damage!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33333 - 01/07/03 12:31 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
"Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words.
-St. Francis of Assisi"

Actions speak louder than words. It's time for people, of all religions or no religions, in fact, to put up or shut up. And that means me!

"Can't we all just get along? I think we can."

Me too, Mo!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33334 - 01/07/03 07:54 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mark
what you said about the nurse taking huge risks is interesting.
And I think it shows how close the behaviour is between acting out and abusing another person, to me it does anyway.

For me a huge part of my acting out was the thrill of the risk, the risk of being caught performing sex acts with strangers in public places during the day are enormous. And I'm talking about very public places here.
So the thrill was just huge, enough to make me high in a way no drugs ever did.

I also had a little phrase that ran through my mind more or less constantly from the time of my abuse.
"I do things they don't - I know things they don't"
this was always with me, telling me I was different, telling me I was better and invincible. It reflected the confidence I had that what I was doing was right for me, that I was doing NOTHING wrong.
But I was still believing their lies.

Also to have got caught might have answered my very confused cry for help, possibly I believed that suddenly everyone would understand and feel sorry for me. I don't think it works that way though !

My guess is your nurse was on the same kick, it's a feeling that's hard to beat unfortunately, and one I haven't been able to create any other way.
Not even extreme off roading comes close to giving me the adreniline rush acting out did, maybe the fact that it's a purpose built machine with a big steel cage and all the safety gear takes the risk away. I know that a multiple roll wont hurt me.
Acting out had no safety net.

What your nurse did bordered on stupidity, or even insanity ( in his eyes ) but he thought he could control that risk, and that's where the the core of abuse lies I think.
It's more about the perp's power and control of his situation than about sex.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33335 - 01/07/03 08:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
There is a time and place to speak and keep silent. I feel that I need to say that God is not in all things. Men have their own will, and are quite capable of doing evil upon evil of their own accord. When bad things happen it is easy to blame a God that has been falsely represented by those who claim to be His teachers and messengers. Here are a few truths about God. There are things He will not, and cannot do. Forced love isn’t real. God did not want mindless minions, but a loving, caring family. Love comes from inside each of us, and can’t be simply planted there. It is the summation of a whole range of things, and God will not impose His will on those that He gave their own will by design. He wants your love, freely given from the heart.

There are many who by their own will do evil, and God is not in them. They abuse, rape and kill, and God is nowhere around. If you have made a choice to walk through life alone, then why do you ask or expect God to help when the moment of terror comes? If you don’t waste a thought on Him or what He wants for you, then where can you fault Him for not running to your side when something goes wrong? He warned over and over that flesh man would come in His name, to fill you with falsehoods and lies. He warned that the church would be polluted by traditions and doctrines, and yet we are too lazy to even open the letter He wrote to find out what He says. We rely on the false teachers that He warned us about to teach us what is written, and they use it to fill us with platitudes and lies.

Lucifer was God’s high priest, and a favorite. Yet, God would not force Lucifer to love and follow Him. He will not force Manson to love, or Hitler, or even me. Evil things happen for a whole range of reasons, some with heavenly reasons, but most are simply man being man. What about the abuse that happened to you? What came of it? Did it forever drive you away from God? Maybe, the abuser served a higher purpose, not a good one, but a higher one. In a hard moment, did you fail the test? How would you like for wife to run away and leave you at the first sign of trouble? You break a plate doing dishes, and she runs for her mother’s and never talks to you again. No, you expect your wife and children to be there through thick and thin. That is what love is about, but it is a two way street, you have to give to get.

The world is cursed because we endure and cherish evil and hate, not because God does. He tried to lead a people, standing right in front of them, and they failed time and again. Men will be men, no matter what He tries, so now we are allowed to be men, and are allowed to choose what we will do. Before you blow off what is there, you owe it to yourself to look and find what He is about. Don’t rely on men, but on God to show you what is there for you. I am not one to say such things, but I was pained by what men have done to you all. It grieves me to see the despair and pain, especially when I have come to know what is there for everyone. Perhaps, I shouldn’t post this, but I have to say what I feel.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#33336 - 01/07/03 11:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Dave, your post makes a very good point, about perps, potential perps, those of us who act out, and all of us survivors. Thanks for reminding me.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33337 - 01/07/03 12:36 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
...Forced love isn't real. God did not want mindless minions, but a loving, caring family. Love comes from inside each of us, and can't be simply planted there. It is the summation of a whole range of things, and God will not impose His will on those that He gave their own will by design. He wants your love, freely given from the heart.
So each person has the right to choose whether or not to love God, or even to believe in Him--or how to believe, for that matter. Again, I'm talking about my understanding of & feelings about the Christian faith, for what they're worth.

As much as I falter in practicing it, I believe what I believe deeply. And becuz I do, I believe deeply in the right of each person to believe and even behave as they choose--as long as they're willing to face the consequences.

Quote:
There are many who by their own will do evil, and God is not in them. They abuse, rape and kill, and God is nowhere around...
I think I know what you might be saying, but I don't like to ass-u-me. So I'll just say that when people abuse, rape & kill, God is around (becuz He is everywhere) but He is not in it.

That is, the heart of God is not in evil. I believe this is becuz God is not in the heart, or being taken to heart, by people when they do evil. God is there trying to work in them, help them be who He made them to be in His image. But He is not with them, or any of us, in evil-doing.

Quote:
He warned that the church would be polluted by traditions and doctrines, and yet we are too lazy to even open the letter He wrote to find out what He says. We rely on the false teachers that He warned us about to teach us what is written, and they use it to fill us with platitudes and lies.
Z, tragically, you are so right. And it's those pious platitudes that really piss me, and obviously many other, off. There is no excuse for religion that makes excuses for evils contrary to that religion, whether done in the name of that religion or not. Furthermore, in my understanding,
that is not true Christianity as the Bible describes it.

The key as you indicate is that we have gotten away from that Bible, from the teachings & example of Jesus and His faithful followers thru the ages. Much evil & abuse is the tragic result.

Quote:
The world is cursed because we endure and cherish evil and hate, not because God does. He tried to lead a people, standing right in front of them, and they failed time and again. Men will be men, no matter what He tries, so now we are allowed to be men, and are allowed to choose what we will do.
Z, I believe as you do that God loves us, hates evil & what it does to us, but gives us the choice to do evil if we choose. I believe this becuz I believe the Bible and I believe my own experience & that of many others.

However, I also know this is not the experience of many others, whom I admire & respect a great deal. Nor was it my own experience for 22 years. Nor has it been in the last 24 years an experience with a lot of struggles & doubts. So it's not hard for me to understand why so many don't want to believe or find it so hard to do so.
It sure ain't easy for me!

Quote:
I am not one to say such things, but I was pained by what men have done to you all. It grieves me to see the despair and pain, especially when I have come to know what is there for everyone. Perhaps, I shouldn't post this, but I have to say what I feel.
Yes, clearly so many of us have in some way been hurt by the direct or indirect abuse, the apathy & neglect, the uncertainties & inconsistencies, of religious people & sometimes even the true Church, when it is not being true to Christ. Like you, Z, I grieve for them, for all of us.

Z thanks for sharing your sincere feelings of care & compassion for all of your fellow survivors, whatever paths they have chosen to walk in survival & healing. My hope & prayer for each one is that each one of us may find their journey full of joy & peace, and the fullness & vitality of healing & really living, of becoming whole, their best & complete & truest self, survivors & thrivers.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33338 - 01/07/03 12:48 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I honor your courage to say what you feel zadoc1. I believe I understand your need to speak and to be clear on these matters. At least I hope I understand.

I have a need to put things in order also and try to be clear. When awful things happened to me it was way beyond my capacity to understand, because I was a child. I could not make sense of anything because all parents are like gods to their children, and god/ parents knew better than I did as a child. As a child my parents have control over my very life and death. My fear, as a child, might be if mommy doesn’t love me I might die. Who would feed me? Who would care for me? What I believe is a fact, is that children fashion their understanding of God by the modeling they see in their parents. Our parents are all powerful to us when we are growing up. This is where my understanding comes in, of the spiritual breech that occurs with severe child abuse. I know this is where my lack of connectedness comes in to my relationship with a ( pardon my detachment here) so called higher power or God. I’m still in the negotiating stages for trusting myself as well as outside of myself. The risk of trusting has a life and death feel to it. I might die if I trust or I might die if I don’t trust. Trusting my mother felt like my soul was dying. It has been a lifelong task to re-learn to trust. It has not been that long ago that I began to understand(pardon the expression) the leap of faith that it takes to re-establish trust. As a matter of fact that understanding came from such a mundane place as an Indiana Jones movie where they had to walk across a deep precipice over an invisible bridge to reach a cave on the other side. In my suspended disbelief it was a powerful moment.

I have a half-sister who is a nun who has no doubt and thinks it is foolish to begin to doubt because that would be so illogical.

I know we all have choices but as children we do not have the capacity to see those choices. The compulsive masturbation and distorted fantasies were resulting from the warped love loyalties that were far beyond my capacity to understand or make right. The sexual over-stimulation was far beyond my capacity to control for so young a man. The “normal” couse of sexual/emotional was prevented for which there were consequences that again were way out of my control.

I’ve always had difficulty with the so-called age of reason being set at seven years old. This magic moment when choice becomes free.
My mother was taking me to bed with her from about the age 14 to 17. I know when I look at a fourteen year old boy today that it was no contest with my mother. She had absolute control when I see it rationally, but as a 14 yo, I understood that my culpability started when I was 7 and I was going to burn for eternity in hell for what I was doing night after night, after night..

What a bunch of crap I was fed..


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#33339 - 01/07/03 01:33 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
I have no doubt in God, but that is me. i will defend the right of everyone to choose and live as they please, as long as they don't usurp the rights of others to do the same. if belief is not in someone, then it isn't in them. that is something that cannot be given by another. i have always wished that i could reach inside, and allow others to feel and share what i have. that isn't possible, so i have said my peace, and wish each of you only the best.

perhaps life has dealt many pains that they cannot overcome, but that is for the thousand year time of teaching. our Father loves us, and dont ever think you will be condemn to eternal death based on what we know now. all will have thier chance, and only those that are completely corrupt will perish. i know each and every one will get the justice and love they earn.

zadok(hebrew)-God's elected or justified ones

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#33340 - 01/07/03 04:57 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
The Dean Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 2080
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
It is always sad for me to see the depth of harm done to really good people who have lived a truly phony life of religion and promoted a truly sick idea of God.

If I could give an answer to the mystery of evil I would be a very wealthy man and probably have gotten a Nobel in some area. I have come to a point where I no longer try to understand any part of it.

Before I was sexually abused I have been physically abused for years. I have no idea why God allowed any of it. I play with the idea of free-will and it helps a bit.

Many years ago I came to the conclusion that Gods knows my innards better than I ever will--so I have trusted His patience and understanding of me and my many failings. If I am wrong about God and God's understanding of us--then I am damned beyond any doubt. I choose to believe that I am correct in my relationaship with God.

If anyone really worries in their mind or heart that God might damn them to hell for what they have felt, said, thought, done etc. I just disagree completely. God knows us and the horrific pain and damage that has been done to us.
If God gets his nose out of joint over those things, given the damage done to us, then he is not the God I know and my whole life has been futile. I choose to elieve it has not been futile.

Bob

_________________________
If we do not live what we believe, then we will begin to believe what we live.

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#33341 - 01/07/03 05:40 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Mark S Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 130
Loc: England
Dave.

Thanks for your reply, regarding the actions of my perp. I found your post illuminating. As we have now reached our 1000th member for me this highlights the value in a site such as this. The pool of knowledge is truely immense on here.

On Saterday 11th January on Channel 4 at 7pm is a documentary named Abused and Catholic. I'm hoping to video it, so I can watch it in my own time and pause it if I so wish.

Mattandrew.

I thank you for your reply too. I scares me just how many perps are drawn towards becomimng health professionals. I don't think my ex girlfriend would mind me saying, she didn't have a vast array of friends and yet when my abuse became knowledge and she spoke to her best friend, (with my knowledge) she found out that her best friends brother had been raped/abused in hospital too. Sadly he committed suicide. I only wish he had found this marvellous, supportive community he may be here now if he had.

Thanks everyone for being there when I've needed you. Mark


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#33342 - 01/07/03 09:24 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
RJD: You are so right about how our understanding of & relationship with God is so vitally shaped or mis-shaped by our parenting or lack of it. I too still have difficulty trusting God, and I sure have my doubts at times.

I'm not sure where that age 7 age of reason comes from but I sure don't agree with it. I think its different ages for different people for different things. I also think that a child of any age, sometimes even as an adult, is very much under the power of their parents, as adults are under the power of bosses for example.

No one can stand & judge who will or won't go to hell, or heaven. But I do know that if God condemns people who have been abused & controlled & live with those consequences, He is a God too small for me. Kinda like Bob, I choose to believe He is bigger & better than that.

Bob: I very much share the kinds of beliefs & feelings you express in your post, about God, about the problem of evil.

The way I see it, if God is small enuf for me to completely understand, what do I need Him for? He's then way too small for me! I of course choose to believe that He is not, and to live with what I don't understand about the evils & abuses in this world.

So I don't have some questions answered. They weren't answered before I believed either.

I think it's like now I'm learning to just ask different questions?...

MarkS: Thanks for mentioning that documentary, and the good idea of taping it. That's probably the only way I could watch it, if I can...

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33343 - 01/08/03 03:23 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
Dear MattAndrew, I so agree with your sentiments about this posting. The opinions are so divergent and the stories so heartbreaking. I, like you, don't really have a clear understanding about God, at least not the God described to me as a child. But I do know there is something greater and more powerful than you and I, and for now, that is enough. And I'll give you a couple of examples as to how I know. Whenever I think back to when I was little, I remember knowing that something was wrong, very wrong; that some of the adults didn't fit or balance with my innate knowledge of what was just and fair. I believe we all have this instinctive knowledge or sense of universality. Where did this come from? Certainly not from the adults around us. All I learned from them was fear and how to hide from their anger. Then later, while in my twenties, and in a deep depression, I had the opportunity to be atop of Mt. Seymour in British Columbia. What lay before me was the most spectacular, almost surreal, canvas of colour and literal sense of splendour I have ever experienced. Man hadn't made any of it. And yet it was too perfect to not have been designed. It was a very humbling experience, I a mere speck on a magnificent and majestic landscape. Then in more recent years...holding and watching our babies, who are now 9 & 11 years old, watching their faces, totally trusting wonderous eyes, their smiles, their small hands clutching my little finger. Man o man...the feeling I get from that comes from somewhere wonderful MattAndrew.

I think it is so vital that each of us remember we still have the wonderous, trusting sides as a continuing part of ourselves. You were so betrayed MattAndrew and there are very few words that I can find to make you feel better. A young boy should always be able to trust his Dad. So it is even more remarkable that through all your struggles MattAndrew,the one thing that keeps on coming through is your love. Your love of justice, and your love for the people on this forum. How ironic,how miraculous. Now where did that come from? Peace, and God Bless you. Andrew


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#33344 - 01/08/03 07:20 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
Mattandrew, you are missing a very important part of this all. We are here in the flesh to be tested, to choose who we will obey and follow. What is sixty or seventy years compared to an eternity? When this is all over, these years we have spent in mortal bodies will be nothing but a blink of the eye. People show their lack of faith in the way they deal with death, and with challenges they face. I was abused, just as the rest here. I am not perfect, but I understand that whether heavenly inspired, or merely the will of man, that abuse served to drive me and mold me. Change one moment of what was, and everything from there forward would change. Perhaps, I wouldn’t have met my wife, or had my sons, or matured into the self-aware and faithful man I am now.

Without understanding the whole, we miss the point. Your brother is home, and feels no more suffering, no more pain. Even if he had never repented once, he is with God, awaiting a chance to be taught and tested. No judgment has happened, nor will it until after all that is written has passed. The flesh was created to teach us and test us, it is meant to die. It gives us a taste of death so that we can fully understand what is at stake if we fail to overcome. When the flesh dies it is only temporary, but if your soul dies at judgment, it is truly forever. We are asked to endure pain and suffering for a few years, to measure what kind of people we are. A flesh lifetime is nothing in the overall picture of things.

Look at our children for a moment. Have you punished your kids by grounding them, sending them through a period where they can think about things, and hopefully teach them something? That is what we are here for. Think of it as being grounded for a week, and when we are through with our punishment, we will emerge into the brilliant, painless life waiting just beyond the door. In comparison to an eternity, these few years mean very little.

God never promised us a trouble free walk under the sun. In fact, He warned us again and again that we would have problems to face and overcome. If you give a child everything, and he faces no adversity, why would he ever seek a higher purpose? We would never seek God if we were not given the troubles that drive us to look for answers. BE NOT SURPRISED AT THE FIERY TRIALS.

WHY DO THE HEATHEN RAGE SO? comes to mind as well. Truly evil men rage now because they have no eternity to look for. They are so polluted and corrupt that they have no hope of overcoming, so instead their hearts are bent on making things miserable for the rest. They are drowning men, dragging as many down with them as they can. Never forget that there are both good figs and bad figs here. For every good thing, there is an evil thing. God loves balance, and even in this there is balance and equality. Because a soul is evil, should he be denied the same chance to repent as the rest? No, God gives even the darkest souls a chance to overcome. He will not remove that chance for the sake of another, because this flesh is temporary anyway.

God is concerned with the whole. It is like a coach, it is impossible to spend all the time you need with each person, so you instruct and teach to the whole. It is up to each person to take those teachings and work to improve and grow. God’s plan for us is complete and whole, only it is no longer taught as it was meant to be. Preachers must adhere to the doctrines and accepted practices of their sects, and are not free to teach the word freely as it is written. They have been so polluted with men’s beliefs that even the truly well meaning ones can no longer see what is in front of them. It is ultimately up to each person to learn and decide what is right and wrong.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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#33345 - 01/08/03 07:21 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
I've recently read 'The People of the Lie' by M. Scott Peck, I mentioned it earlier.

It has a subtitle "The hope for healing human evil" a noble hope.
It's worth a read, there is some very interesting stuff about evil, forgiveness, and the why's and how's of people becoming evil.
Peck is deeply religious, and as an atheist I find a lot of what he writes does fall into giving religion the praise for the 'good' he writes about where I think that same 'good' can come about without religion.
Also there's a chapter on excorcism that I feel can be explained in more logical ways.
But that's just the way I see it.

Here's a quote from it.

*****************************************

If evil were easy to recognise, identify and manage there would be no need for this book. But the fact of the matter is that it is the most difficult of all things with which to cope. If we, as objectivley mature adults, have great difficulty coming to terms with evil, think what it must be like for the child living in its midst.
The child can only survive by virtue of a massive fortification of its psyche. While such fortifications or pyschological defences are essential to its survival through childhood, they inevitably distort or compromise its life as an adult. It happens then, that the children of evil parents enter adulthood with very significant pyschological disturbances.
We have been working with such victims, often very successfuly, for many years without having to employ the word "evil" . But it is doubtful that some can be wholly healed of their scars from having had to live in close quarters with evil without correctly naming the source of their problems.
To come to terms with evil in ones parentage is perhaps the most difficult and painful pyschological task a human being can be called on to face. Most fail and remain its victims.
Those who succeed in developing the necessary searing vision are those who are able to name it. For to 'come to terms' means to 'arrive at the name'.
As therapists it is our duty what is in our power to assist evil's victims to arrive at the true name of their affliction.

****************************************

That's strong stuff.
His main theory throughout the book is that 'evil' was never recognised as a true human condition, and he belives it should. I agree with him.

He also goes into great detail about what constitutes an 'evil' person. And that's where he gets very interesting.
Nomally we save the title of 'evil' for the cruel murderers, torturers, rapists and abusers of this world. Peck argues, convincingly, that 'evil' goes way beyond that - or should that be - back from that ?
He argues that 'evil' can be as little as parents being ignorant and selfish to a childs needs. They might never harm the child physically, might provide everything the child needs and would unfailingly love the child. But something in the parent prevents them from allowing the child to flourish and develop properly.
It isn't 'evil' with malice - just ignorance of some kind.

It's a difficult - uncomfortable - read, but interesting.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33346 - 01/08/03 07:45 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
guy43 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 450
Loc: Minnesota
not once has the word spirit or spirituality been mentioned here. what good is faith without it?

i believe evilness and the potential for it lives in all of us. its up to us to choose which path we take regardless of what has happened to us in the past. how wonderful it is that some can react with such anger toward that evil done to them in the name of religion or positions of authority. but what then? stay stuck in anger or rage?

I would close with these words but i don't know all the words to it..................

can someone (hint hint mo_healing or the other poets among us here) please post the words to the song "the rose" as sung by bette midler in the movie of the same name?

jer


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#33347 - 01/08/03 10:24 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Jer

Quote:
how wonderful it is that some can react with such anger toward that evil done to them in the name of religion or positions of authority. but what then? stay stuck in anger or rage?
I agree, we have to move on from our anger somehow, either dispell it, conquer it, give it back to those who gave it to us - whatever we do with it we have to move away from it.

The anger that RJD felt right at the start of this post about a TV show, and the attitudes expressed there, will always come back and bite us. And rightly so.
But if we're not overloaded with the 'baggage' of our old anger then we'll deal with new angers as they come.

Forgive me for quoting again - but I like this by the French guy Jean Paul Sartre.

"If you are not already dead, forgive. Rancour is heavy, it is worldly; leave it on earth. Die lightly."

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33348 - 01/08/03 10:33 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
The Rose
Artist: Bette Midler
Words & Lyrics by: Amanda McBroom


Some say love, it is a river that drowns the tender reed.
Some say love, it is a razor that leaves your soul to bleed.
Some say love, it is a hunger, an endless aching need.
I say love, it is a flower, and You its only seed.

It's the heart, afraid of breaking, that never learns to dance.
It's the dream, afraid of waking, that never takes a chance.
It's the one who won't be taken, who cannot seem to give.
And the soul, afraid of dyin', that never learns to live.

When the night has been too lonely,and the road has been too long,
And you think that love is only for the lucky and the strong,
Just remember in the winter far beneath the bitter snows,
Lies the seed, that with the sun's love, in the spring becomes
The Rose.


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#33349 - 01/08/03 11:35 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
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Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Not the type of song I usually like, but I'm starting to understand why I always liked that song...

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33350 - 01/08/03 12:14 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
As a 36 year old married white male, I don't think I'm in Better Midler's "target demographic". But the words are telling, and who knows, she probably went through the same stuff we did Jer. I just down load lyrics online, though, I don't have any talent for hearing them. When I was a kid I thought that '70's song "Still the one" was "Steal the worm".

Mo Healing


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#33351 - 01/08/03 04:19 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
Les_angry thanks for your support.

also thank you andrew-almost 52

Thank you Bob”the Dean,” In the same spirit I want to say FU Sally Jesse Raphael who
aparently believes from birth on, men are always culpable for all that happens in to us
and the lives we come in contact with.

Thanks back at you too Victor, I’ve also been saying. Whew!

Bless you too guy43.

Life is more complicated than what I initially posted. What was not in my opening post
was even good people do bad things. There is a place for anger in the raw and a
place for focused anger that has been reasoned out.. I lnow that everyone is doing
their best and life is overwhelming ...period. The church is more complex than my
knee jerk reaction speading one color over all churches and participants. There are
nuns that really are all about love, even the ones who have expressed their personal
hurt violently onto others. We are all capable of hurting others. Words can hurt too, as we all know.

What I fight are the images of perfection, I guess. Don’t look now, but maybe what I fight are images of infallable authority? I resent the power of doctors and nurses as infallableimages. I resent the image of priests and nuns as infallable. I resent the
images of cops as infallable. I resent the images of “pillars of society” as infallable. I
am especially resentful of the image of the “cult of the Madonna” otherwise known as
MOTHERHOOD(surprise, surprise). Its always my word against a brick wall of so
called “sainthood” or doers of good deeds who are unimpeachable. I’m also
uncomfortable even wearing a cloak of authority. Do you think I might have unfinished
issues from my adolescent period? Enough sarcasm about myself.

michaelb your anger is righteous, laden with care, support and hope. Because of that
it is filled with love. Thank you for bringing it here. I too have left services where in one sentence it was about God's love for all
and the next sentence was about who the "all" included

Bless you back Mark S

Hope is what I see all through this thread.

mattandrew your final words on one post was:
________________________________________________

For me i think my religion is going to be none right now,
until i can really hammer out this issue.
________________________________________________

My heart skipped a beat and filled with tears of joy.

Your statement said to me that you believe there might be a time in the future when
you might even entertain the idea that some father’s can be loving. Now is not the time
but you have hope. Does this fit with what you were saying mattandrew?

The visual immage you provided for me is one of determination and hope. I’m
hammering out issues myself. A piece of this image I share with you is in my choice of
the word “tempering” in expressing my gratitude to “Lloydy” at the very beginning.
These are terms used when working with steel. Each of us is recreating ourselves by
rearranging the powerful raw materials, in us, to forge this steel. This healing process
is much like that to me. I feel like I first have to go through the fire.

My struggle is with mother love. Brother love is also contaminated for me and is
related to your experience as I see it mattandrew. My own kind, that was supposed to
show me what being a man was all about, painted a poisoned image. If being a man
is about what he did to me, I didn’t want to grow up to be that man.

Determination, hope and love is every where on this thread.

I hesitated to post this anger piece. It was pretty raw in reaction to what I saw on
television, but I knew you guys could relate to it. When I sat down at the computer my
modem for access to the internet was dead and I thought the cosmos were saying
don’t do it Bob, but the passion was there. The next day the passion was still there, but
still no modem. I typed it anyway as a way to get rid of the anger and stop carrying
it around. Later my wife found the loose wire. I still held on to this piece and after a
while in the wee hours I released it by posting.

Well what if someone is hurt by it? what if they don’t understand? What if it elicits
hate. What if they never let me back here? Then I said to myself, it’s just the way I feel.
If they can’t deal with it, so be it , and I will mourn that loss too. I’m not arguing
theology. I’m hurting and anger is protecting that hurt.

As I look back, what seems to have happened is that the anger that was expressed, as
in “gotten rid of,” opened other possibilities. All the responses are dazzling to me.
There is so much heart here. A part of me expected a lot of; how wrong I was, I don’t
know what I’m are saying, I shouldn’t be like that, and when are you going to get over
this. What I really got was a ton of real love shared with one another. WOW!!!!

From a discussion between my wife and myself:
Doubt, and belief that is encased in doctrine, are intellectual concepts or in the
language of the brain. They are more finite in their scope. They are about
being up in the head which is often about defenses.

Hope , faith and charity, confusion, pain and love are the language of the
heart, rather than language of the brain . They keep you educable, or open to
possibilities.

Bless all of you, and I hope this keeps going.


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#33352 - 01/08/03 07:56 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
RJD

Quote:
Hope , faith and charity, confusion, pain and love
Well.......
we've had all of that here, and more.
I for one started with 'confusion' when I saw the origional post, I moved on to 'hope' - read the first few replies and had a sudden rush of 'faith'
The 'charity' is everyone accepting each others point of view, no matter how much 'pain' it might cause.
That just leaves 'love' - and there's been a load of that as well !

Dave \:D

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33353 - 01/08/03 11:42 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
As a 36 year old married white male, I don't think I'm in Better Midler's "target demographic". But the words are telling, and who knows, she probably went through the same stuff we did Jer.
Mo I'm not sure if Bette did in fact suffer CSA; I'll check into it.

Quote:
I just down load lyrics online, though, I don't have any talent for hearing them. When I was a kid I thought that '70's song "Still the one" was "Steal the worm".
Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk, gee that's funny, Moe! :p Maybe on the Music Forum it would be fun to share some of the lyrics we heard wrong in funny ways. \:o \:D

Thanks for the inspiration, Mo!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33354 - 01/09/03 12:07 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
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Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
RJD:

Little brother;), this thread is so much of what MS & surviving & recovery & support are all about!

We can't mention every aspect of every thing we bring up every time we post. Forget the lack of time, energy & necessity to do so; we probably haven't even thot of & can't comprehend certain aspects until we start with something & just post!

I could see how your ideas, feelings, etc seemed to change each time you posted as the thread progressed and more & more people responded to you and to others. It's great when this happens, and it was great to see it happening with you.

It was my privilege to follow with you in your struggles, your "growing pains," in this thread; especially with "images of perfection," and particularly "the cult of the Madonna" aka motherhood--those, I really relate to!

Thanks for having the courage to start a thread so powerful & so real, a thread that has really shown some of the best of MS!

Blessings my brother \:\)

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33355 - 01/09/03 12:21 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
andrew-almost52 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 243
Loc: canada
Amen to Victor's words!


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#33356 - 01/09/03 06:50 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Couldn't find anything on Bette Midler's childhood in any detail. If anyone finds anything relating to CSA or other childhood abuse, please post it here and/or in Music forum. Thanks.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33357 - 01/10/03 04:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Muldoon Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Well this topic hit home for me in so many ways.

"God wants you to do this for me"
Where the words Father Ryan said to me when i was 11 YO. Ya he took God's name in evil. I was tring to stop him from taken my paints off but when he said that it got to me. What the hell ,God wanted me to let Father Ryan rape me???????
I was a child and was always told that the priest was to be obeyed. After he started raping me all I could think about was why would God want this to happen to me. After a few moments I started tring to get away from him because MY GOD, Ya MY GOD didn't want this to happen.
My God did hear my crys and sent the housekeeper down to that room in the basement to stop Father Ryan. She keep knocking on the door until Father stopped his evil . I was able to run out of there never to be a altar boy again.
I have believed in MY GOD ever sense that day but couldn't have anything to do with the church. Like others here I have a super hard time being in a church,and when at weddings I always set in the back ready to run out. Spirituality is what it is all about for me and in so many ways god has been in my life since that day. Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#33358 - 01/10/03 10:44 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Quote:
"God wants you to do this for me"
Where the words Father Ryan said to me when i was 11 YO. Ya he took God's name in evil. I was tring to stop him from taken my paints off but when he said that it got to me. What the hell ,God wanted me to let Father Ryan rape me???????
If that isn't taking Gods' Name in vain, then I don't know what is! That "priest" usurped God's authority & used it to take control over you!

Muldoon, my friend, I'm so sorry about the horrible things that so-called priest did to you.

Yet I'm glad, and somewhat amazed, that even as you went thru this living nightmare, you were able to make the distinction between the "man of God" (NOT!) and God, your God, as opposed to the "priests'" God, which was something different altogether... \:o

Muldoon, I'm glad this evil man was stopped. I don't wonder that you have a hard time being in a church. Your continuing faith in your God, church or no, is inspiring. Becuz as you obviously know, there is a big difference...

Take care friend

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33359 - 01/10/03 11:24 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey Muldoon,

My perp tricked me into closing my eyes so I couldnt see how he was about to trick me. When he was threatening me afterwards, he was yelling at me for what he told me to do. I said "you told me to!" Even though I couldn't see, so I didn't know what he was tricking me into doing. After I said that he told me that no one would ever know that. I said "God knows". He said "There is no God!".

3 years later I had a really bad athsma attack and I cried out and foolishly assumed I recieved no answer. After that I was an athiest for 12 years. When I think back I used to say "There is no God" probably just like he did. It wasn't easy to live without the idea of a God for that long. (Now I'm 1000 percent sure there is one, its a long story). My conscience wouldn't allow me to do what anything at all anyway.

Anxiety, despair and imposible burdens characterized that time for me, as well as a constant search for any reason to wake up the next morning. This is what it says about that in the bible: Mark 9:41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. 42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea."

I was lucky enough to find a really good example of someone who claimed to be a christian, I hope you do to.


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#33360 - 01/10/03 08:07 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Victor Thanks for you words and understanding of my beliefs in not being part of organized churches. It makes me lonely at time when I see others who get so much love from their faiths. Maybe someday that can be part of my world but not now.
Les-Angry
Quote:
I said "God knows". He said "There is no God!".
I am so sorry that you went through so much of you life with no god but you now have a full faith in Your GOD. Thanks for all your quote from the bible,I don't read the book put i enjoy your imput to our discussions. Below our some more of my throught on GOD

I have always had great respect for all spiritual beliefs. The nuns and me use to get into big arguments about their bullshit about only Catholic’s going to heaven. Ya back in the early 60.s the nuns would tell us that only THE TRUE BELIVERS (Catholic) would go to heaven and we should try to convert our none catholic friends so they would be up there with us. I would tell the nuns that my God would let all GOOD people go his heaven.

I grew to believe in the Beliefs of the American Indians, which gave me some inner peace and hope for my life.
"We want to know Christianity through our ancient ways, not just through the ways of non-Indian. We want to believe that what we know within us is true. To be forced to believe otherwise is to destroy what we are."
From the book, Land of the Four Directions about the Indians of Maine.
It angered me to learn what the Christian faiths where doing to kill Indian spiritual beliefs. This just drove me farther away from the Christian churches.
Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#33361 - 01/10/03 10:10 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Les_Angry Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 195
Hey Muldoon,

I think those nuns may have meant well, but they don't represent the views of their church. Here are the official words on the subject. They are taken from the most recent Catechism of the Catholic Church. The words regarding this subject were based on the Vatican II council which took place in the early '60's at the same time as those conversations.

Discussions on the subject are included in chapters 839 to 845 (specifically in chapter 843) in the Catechism:

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/church3.html#Apostolic

I'll paste them here in case you cant get to the website:

Quote:

The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[332]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[333]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334]
I dont know what those nuns were thinking, maybe they truely believed that and thought they were saving you. It violates Matthew 7 to jump to conclusions about thier motives. Maybe this quote from chapter 844 of the catechism applies, who knows:

Quote:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator.
I think maybe in a nutshell they are saying: "cant we all just get along?"

Mo Healing


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#33362 - 01/11/03 03:50 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I'm not here to be corrected. It is my heart that needs healing. For that to happen, my heart must feel safe. My heart does not feel safer just because words have been written. Just because something is written somewhere, it doesn't make it so. I'm here to express the pain of my experience. There are still plenty of people who say "God" has taken away their pain so they don't need therapy, then go on to inflict misery on the hearts of othere. I also believe that 3 therapy sessions is not going to cure the results of profound trauma. There are still people acting on pain from their histories and passing this pain on to others, then justifying it. The church isn't the only entity that needs a call to accountability for the harm done to children.


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#33363 - 01/11/03 05:28 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
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Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
RJD, my brother, your post is so right on in so many ways.

Quote:
I'm not here to be corrected. It is my heart that needs healing.
This is something that even we as survivors can have difficulty remembering about each other, our ourselves.

Me, I still can get pretty aggravated with people who try to fill me with info & advice as tho just the "right" (if it is right) knowledge about something will help me feel better about it.

Sometimes I've got more knowledge than I can handle. It may make me feel better, or worse.

The right info can help when given at a time & in a way that it can be received. For me that usually means when I ask for it, and not when I'm venting feelings.

It's like people trying to comfort me & help me feel better may not help much when I'm asking for info about say where a support group meeting is or for some book titles about dealing with flashbacks. Well intended, but of limited value, & sometimes even irritating.

Quote:
There are still plenty of people who say "God" has taken away their pain so they don't need therapy, then go on to inflict misery on the hearts of othere. I also believe that 3 therapy sessions is not going to cure the results of profound trauma. There are still people acting on pain from their histories and passing this pain on to others, then justifying it.
Neither spirituality or psychology is a magic pill or pre>
_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33364 - 01/13/03 12:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Ross Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/02
Posts: 34
Loc: Vancouver, BC Canada
Dear RJD:

As a survivor of physical and sexual abuse by Catholic clergy I appreciate your views and anger at the TV episode. I have spent many years of my life reflecting on what happened to me and God's role in it. I was abused as an inmate in a catholic reformatory as a young teenager. For many years I carried an immense hatred for the church, catholic priests and other such elements.

I do not think that the district's writers or producers really understand the complexity of what sexual abuse does to victims. I am being polite but their point of view seemed idiotic as described and portrayed.

I personally believe that any level of forgiveness, "backing off" or "letting" issues "go" is the sacred property of the victim. The victim should decide if, when and how. Others should not intrude on that issue without respect and sensitivity; and then only with permission. So many well meaning others have said we should let go and get on with our lives. I find it particularly galling when a person uses the bible to suggest that course of action.

I notice that Jesus was pretty loving but even he took a moment or two to drive the money changers out of the temple for committing such an obvious error. I have reached the point in my life where I am not pissed off at God as much as I was. In addition, I refuse to let those that abused me escape any level of responsibility for their actions under the technicality that "God made everything". I may sound casual here but that point was very difficult for me to deal with for a long time. I have made choices as to what position or feelings I have maintained towards my abusers. They are mine alone and although I had help to understand my feelings; I as the victim was in charge of decisions regarding forgiveness or letting go. I also must note that I view justice and forgiveness as two different things in regards to child abuse.

I feel each of us must come to our own conclusions as to the issue of forgiveness or any level of acceptance that it happened, etc. I am grateful I had some help to sort it out but my therapist was very creful about the process and never pushed or led the issue. I also learned a few things in the process:

1. My anger was like a stallion. A thrill to ride but often in charge and out of control.
2. I rode my anger out of many good and bad places until it was all I had left to have or to give.
3. I still ride my anger at times. It is more of a gelding now. It is fast and fun to ride at times but it does not fight so much with my other rides like loving and being loved. It also knows to head to the barn sooner and I don't have to walk home so much after getting thrown off.
4. When I pull on the reins of my anger it now responds quicker. As a result it has been a while since I have been dragged along fences, thrown into trees or tangled up in wires.

Sincerely

Ross


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#33365 - 01/13/03 01:01 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Muldoon Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 1428
Loc: St Paul MN
Ross I love this throught and will have to remember it next time the anger gets to me.
Quote:
It also knows to head to the barn sooner and I don't have to walk home so much after getting thrown off.
Muldoon

_________________________
Teach the Children to Never Hide in the Silence

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#33366 - 01/13/03 10:35 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Ross:

I agree with Muldoon, and that's a great metaphor for anger you use. I gotta remember that too!

"I feel each of us must come to our own conclusions as to the issue of forgiveness or any level of acceptance that it happened, etc. I am grateful I had some help to sort it out but my therapist was very creful about the process and never pushed or led the issue."

Ross I sure affirm that too; and I'm also fortunate enuf to have a T like that.

This I especially appreciate:

"In addition, I refuse to let those that abused me escape any level of responsibility for their actions under the technicality that "God made everything"."

Good for you. Do they think God "made" what they did to you?! Stupid arguement for them!

In fact, in my belief, it is just becuz God made everything that their actions were inexcusable and the measure of their responsibility--and accountability to God--is full!

You were/are made by God in God's own image, sacred & special, as we all are. Thus to abuse you, to abuse anybody, is detestable! Especially for those who should know this and who should know--and do--better! \:o

Ross, I'm glad you have a good T and that you are working your recovery, your process, your way. WTG & take care.

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33367 - 01/13/03 03:52 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I like what you wrote Ross, but I'm not so sure about the metaphor. I've not been raised around horses, but from what I understand of what it takes to become a gelding I think I might prefer a frontal lobotomy that kind of produces the same effect


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