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#33326 - 01/06/03 06:56 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
RJD Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 326
Loc: jefferson City, Mo,usa
I agree with you Dave and Andrew when you wrote

"I'm not sure we can really ever forgive our perpetrators RJD. I honestly think they are
beyond receiving forgiveness because they don't really understand what they did, how itaffected us. Oh sure, they might realize that society and the law view their actions as punishable, but they themselves are probably incapable or unwilling to feel our pain. They don't understand it. In their minds, what they did was normal ... not that big a deal.

"Every time I see a documetary on TV, read an eyewitness account of abuse, talk with survivors who have confronted their abusers, this is the response I have come to expect.
They know no different. The reaction is one of dissapointment at getting caught."

To me this the whole point of holding perpetrators accountable. Part of why they donít
get it is because they bought the lies of their own perpetrator(s)/ repressors. (It doesnít
have to be only overt SA here as I see it.) It is confusing to them that they should be
held accountable because their own perpetrators got away with it. ( I would wager that
their own perpetrator could not be disagreed with or face their own ďdeathĒ as victims
of their perpetrators.) This forces a dilema for them that they will have to face their
own pain and monumental terror or continue to shore up the lies they were taught..
Somewhere deep down inside is the real truth that they felt they had to ignore no
matter what the cost.
Confrontation with too little place to hide from the truth is what is needed. It is even the
most loving thing that can be done for them. This confrontation is not about getting
even, it is about showing what accountability looks like.

I do believe they (the perpetrators and the church)are clueless.

With that accountability they might see the devastation caused by their own
perpetrator, and the perpetuation of this devastation that they continued on to the
lives of those they have victimized. Until they can see this, forgiveness of them is upsurd. Forgiving my own vulnerability is the least and most I can do.

But then again what about, ďForgive them, for they know not what they doĒ in terms of the church too. Like with my mother I do not have to be around while they spread their poison on themselves .

I believe that the process of holding perpetrators accountable is also healing for
survivors who have not yet found their voice and even those of us who have. Putting
the issue on the table also reduces at least some of the power of a perpetrator. They
hold all the cards as long as we are keeping the secret.

We all know the power of the
wizard behind the curtain is reduced as long as we declare his sighting.

Putting the issues on
the table also gives us a chance to identify the problem so that something can then be
done about it.

I hope my sentences are not too convoluted to understand. (I will be re-reading it iím sure.)


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#33327 - 01/06/03 07:04 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Mark S Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 130
Loc: England
RJD

Your post really hit home with me. Your words so eloquently put. I have been searching for spirituality through-out my recovery.

Whilst I have have said on numerous occassions I wasn't abused by a priest but by another member of society that should be trusted, a male nurse. I have tired the standard religions only to find that I couldn't trust what they were preaching. Knowing there were so many BAD people preaching in the name of God, who could I trust? Who could I let see the real/vulnerable me?

I moved on to Buddhism and found their preaching even more alarming. They constantly run anger workshops on how to let your anger go, how to live a happy life. How anger serves no perpose and if you reach your goal you are assured rebirth in a higher life. Well IF I believed that I would be fine, I would be sure to come back a Buddha. You see and this is where it gets difficult for me and I start crying. I have NEVER been angry at my abuser. I have never been angry at anyone else other than me fullstop. I was angry at me for a long time but my abuser no!!! I have now curtailed the anger towards me, so in a Buddhist eyes I should be so happy. The only problem is I'm desperatly un-happy. I used to be a memeber of a disabilty forum much like this, but if I had a bad day and said so I was told I was whinging, to get on with my life. These are the cards that God dealt us and I should be gratfull. But should I be gratefull? Am I whinging when I say I'm not ok? Why did God see fit to deal this hand of cards to me/us?

I read your posts and the subsequent replies several times and each time my eyes welled up, initially for the distress in your initial post but then in the wonderment that your anger is part of your recovery. And judging from these post you understand that well.

I haven't given up on spirituallity, I will in time try other religions Hinduism and Shiekism are on the list. However I'm not setting myself a target and in the end maybe I follow my own spitiually and call it Markism, though it sounds rather like Marxism.

Thank you again RJD for a thougt provoking post and thanks Dave for having the courage and insight to allow the post to stay.

Mark


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#33328 - 01/06/03 07:13 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
For me my religious upbringing was driven out of me at the time the abuse took place, and I've never gone looking for it again.

My parents were Methodists, regualsr church goers and genuine believers.
I was raised that way and went to Sunday school until I was 11 yo.

Shortly after I went to boarding school and the abuse began. At that school we were marched in along crocodile line the two miles to church every Sunday, no exceptions.
And I can distinctly remember making the concious decision during these services that God didn't apply to me, so I would just sit and stand during the service out of conformity - something I still do at weddings and funerals, politness I suppose.

But it was a sudden, and surprisingly thought out thing for me as an 11yo to do, and I do remember it happening.
Maybe I thought that I was different, special ? That's what they were telling anyway.
Did I also think it was 'sinful'and that I had gone so far adrift I was beyond being a part of religion ?

Whatever the exact thoughts were the result was final, religion means nothing to me now - and it something I have thought about.

I have had a friendship with a Catholic Father, and I've seen my father in law return to the Catholic church and gain huge comfort from them.
And I know many of you here gain from your religion.
So I cant knock it, but neither can I believe in it.

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33329 - 01/06/03 07:43 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Matt

Quote:
" Offend me once, shame on the perp, offend me twice, shame on me & the perp if i know better what this person is doing to me, offend me three times, shame on me and the perp & law enforcement & who ever else might be involved.
That is just the truth........

Mo Healing
It's impossible to disagreew with your points about evil deeds, you're right - it's easy to blame something like a song. Unfortunately this easy blame is pounced on by lawyers and some - what can I call them ? lame brained do-gooders. How often do we have to suffer them offering stuff like that asa 'genuine' reason for evil behaviour.
If you want a good de>
_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33330 - 01/06/03 09:50 PM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Mark S Offline
Member

Registered: 08/25/02
Posts: 130
Loc: England
Dave.

I too watched the programme on Janathan King and his partners in his crimes. I found his attitude chilling. Always thinking of his losses without a second thought for his victims. Another remarkable resemblance to this (showbusiness) and religious institutions was the amount of alledged other celebrities who were in the know.

I also watched a recent programme on our BBC2 which followed peodaphiles and tried to get to the route cause of their actions. At first I feared this was going to be sensational journalism but it was far from it, Once again it highlighted just how sick these peolpe are. One man justified his actions of abuseing a multitude of children (both girls and boys) because female circumsision is worse. What planet does he come from. Abuse of anyone by anyone is wrong!!!! I agree people like him will never show remorse and the longer they are safly locked away the better.

I have one query though. My abuser (Male Nurse) risked being caught. He would often leave machines on till the alarm went off. I mean the machines that record heart rate, oxygen saturation etc. I know he involved another member of staff who worked as his look out. (She had befriended me and I only realised her involvement through dreams and therapy) But did he know what he was doing was wrong and wanted to be caught or was he so confident of himself. I feel the later is more likely.

Mark


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#33331 - 01/07/03 12:13 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
Whew!

As I read the posts in this thread over & over, I am thankful that it is here and that it has remained here undisturbed to this point. The words of woe & wonder, anger & awe, in these posts are incredible. Thank you RJD for starting it, Dave for leaving it, and all of you for contributing to it so meaningfully.

I grew up in a very not only atheistic but anti-Christian home in which I was also fiercely abused
thruout childhood. Then at 13 I'm placed in a Baptist children's home & am going to church 3-4 times a week. As soon as I got outta there I got outta church too, until I became a Christian 5 years later.

One of the big ongoing struggles of my faith journey has been in trying to separate Jesus Christ Who Is perfect from the Church His people who are imperfect, then separating that Church from the people who go to church.

The Church is not buildings or an organization or institution, tho these may be part of it. The Church in my belief is the faithful people of God thru faith in Jesus Christ. Everybody who goes to church is not Christian anymore than everyone who goes to watch a Super Bowl is Super Bowl Champs! And even Christians are not perfect--I know I'm not!

None of this of course is any excuse for abusive church organizations, churchgoers, or even professing Christians who go astray from the life & teachings of Jesus Christ; nor is it intended to be.

I full well relate to & empathize with those who have anger & misunderstandings with God, with Jesus Christ, with the Church, with Christians, with churchgoers, with church organizations. I've had more than my share of that anger & misunderstanding, both as an agnostic & as a Christian.

I have more questions than answers, so I offer no answers. I do still have my faith, but I sure don't expect anyone else to have it. We must each come to our own faith, in whoever or whatever or nothing, in our own way, for ourselves. That is the right of each individual that must be respected.

I am grateful for the open sharing & mutual respect being shown in this dialog on such a controversial matter as religion.

I wonder if we would do as well with politics!?...(I know, let's not push our luck!) ;\) \:D

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33332 - 01/07/03 12:26 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
"As for perps being rehabilitated, that is a joke in itself, any therapist who says a sex offender is rehabilitated and won't ever re-offend is a " QUACK " and i have ocean front property to sell them in iraq."

Matt, you sure do have a way with words. I don't think we can say for sure a sex offender is rehabilitated & won't reoffend any more than we can say, for instance, an alcoholic or drug addict is cured & will never drink or shoot up again.

"Organized religion is a joke, to those who want to bible thump, i have a church in ethiopia to sell them, this way they can preach to the air because all they preach is hot air why not add more to where it belongs."

All I can do, beyond chuckle at this \:D , is agree,
and offer a bit of my vast fortune :rolleyes: to the windbags so they can buy that church & go somewhere where they won't do so much damage!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33333 - 01/07/03 12:31 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Wuamei Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 2700
Loc: The left turn I should have ta...
"Preach the gospel always, if necessary use words.
-St. Francis of Assisi"

Actions speak louder than words. It's time for people, of all religions or no religions, in fact, to put up or shut up. And that means me!

"Can't we all just get along? I think we can."

Me too, Mo!

Victor

_________________________
"I can't stand pain. It hurts me."
--Daffy Duck

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#33334 - 01/07/03 07:54 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mark
what you said about the nurse taking huge risks is interesting.
And I think it shows how close the behaviour is between acting out and abusing another person, to me it does anyway.

For me a huge part of my acting out was the thrill of the risk, the risk of being caught performing sex acts with strangers in public places during the day are enormous. And I'm talking about very public places here.
So the thrill was just huge, enough to make me high in a way no drugs ever did.

I also had a little phrase that ran through my mind more or less constantly from the time of my abuse.
"I do things they don't - I know things they don't"
this was always with me, telling me I was different, telling me I was better and invincible. It reflected the confidence I had that what I was doing was right for me, that I was doing NOTHING wrong.
But I was still believing their lies.

Also to have got caught might have answered my very confused cry for help, possibly I believed that suddenly everyone would understand and feel sorry for me. I don't think it works that way though !

My guess is your nurse was on the same kick, it's a feeling that's hard to beat unfortunately, and one I haven't been able to create any other way.
Not even extreme off roading comes close to giving me the adreniline rush acting out did, maybe the fact that it's a purpose built machine with a big steel cage and all the safety gear takes the risk away. I know that a multiple roll wont hurt me.
Acting out had no safety net.

What your nurse did bordered on stupidity, or even insanity ( in his eyes ) but he thought he could control that risk, and that's where the the core of abuse lies I think.
It's more about the perp's power and control of his situation than about sex.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#33335 - 01/07/03 08:42 AM Re: The District, Saturday, Jan 4th 03 "CAUTION" CUSSING
zadok1 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/02
Posts: 188
Loc: Ohio
There is a time and place to speak and keep silent. I feel that I need to say that God is not in all things. Men have their own will, and are quite capable of doing evil upon evil of their own accord. When bad things happen it is easy to blame a God that has been falsely represented by those who claim to be His teachers and messengers. Here are a few truths about God. There are things He will not, and cannot do. Forced love isnít real. God did not want mindless minions, but a loving, caring family. Love comes from inside each of us, and canít be simply planted there. It is the summation of a whole range of things, and God will not impose His will on those that He gave their own will by design. He wants your love, freely given from the heart.

There are many who by their own will do evil, and God is not in them. They abuse, rape and kill, and God is nowhere around. If you have made a choice to walk through life alone, then why do you ask or expect God to help when the moment of terror comes? If you donít waste a thought on Him or what He wants for you, then where can you fault Him for not running to your side when something goes wrong? He warned over and over that flesh man would come in His name, to fill you with falsehoods and lies. He warned that the church would be polluted by traditions and doctrines, and yet we are too lazy to even open the letter He wrote to find out what He says. We rely on the false teachers that He warned us about to teach us what is written, and they use it to fill us with platitudes and lies.

Lucifer was Godís high priest, and a favorite. Yet, God would not force Lucifer to love and follow Him. He will not force Manson to love, or Hitler, or even me. Evil things happen for a whole range of reasons, some with heavenly reasons, but most are simply man being man. What about the abuse that happened to you? What came of it? Did it forever drive you away from God? Maybe, the abuser served a higher purpose, not a good one, but a higher one. In a hard moment, did you fail the test? How would you like for wife to run away and leave you at the first sign of trouble? You break a plate doing dishes, and she runs for her motherís and never talks to you again. No, you expect your wife and children to be there through thick and thin. That is what love is about, but it is a two way street, you have to give to get.

The world is cursed because we endure and cherish evil and hate, not because God does. He tried to lead a people, standing right in front of them, and they failed time and again. Men will be men, no matter what He tries, so now we are allowed to be men, and are allowed to choose what we will do. Before you blow off what is there, you owe it to yourself to look and find what He is about. Donít rely on men, but on God to show you what is there for you. I am not one to say such things, but I was pained by what men have done to you all. It grieves me to see the despair and pain, especially when I have come to know what is there for everyone. Perhaps, I shouldnít post this, but I have to say what I feel.

_________________________
The world is a dangerous place, not because of those that are evil, but because of those who do nothing about them- Albert Einstein

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