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#330388 - 05/01/10 12:12 AM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: Ever-fixed Mark]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
It blows me away that Catholic clergy feel they are exempt from secular laws in the countries that they operate in. Nevermind for a minute that a priest is accused of sexually abusing a child. In the country I'm from it is also the law that a professional in a position of trust or authority over someone vulnerable, or oversees someone in charge of caring for vulnerable individuals, has a duty to report abuse, neglect, etc if they have knowledge of it. If not then they are considered liable for not acting. Cardinal or Pope, Ratzinger was aware from the beginning that a confessed perpetrator (the priest who sexually abused multiple deaf boys)was in his midst and ultimately he decided to do nothing. As a professional who works with a vulnerable population I would have been let go immediately if I failed to act like he had so in my mind he has no excuse. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#330424 - 05/01/10 10:20 AM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: jls]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
Thanks everyone for the relevant insightful replies, especially David & Mark.

Can we be honest here. Someone mentioned it was both girls & boys that were molested by pedophile priests. That's true but as Paul Harvey said, let's hear the rest of the story.

The percentages are wildly disproportionate towards little boys being sexually abused by the Catholic clergy. I've read up to 85% homosexual pedophilia vs. heterosexual abuse. (I fully admit my bias as a csa survivor from both sexes but mostly homosexual)

The problem, whether or not we chose to admit or accept it, is gay men (not all but even one's too many) with pedophile proclivities joining the Catholic Church in order to have access over our little boys in a position of trust no less.

I can't think of too many more diabolical plans than to spend years of training, pretending to care about others, having thousands or more look up to you and yes, worship you as a messenger of God all so you can have access to little boys to rape/molest for your own perverted vile putrid pleasure.

There's a NAMBLA aspect to this entire sick sordid fiasco but I think many of my CSA brothers ignore this equally outrageous part of the abuse, whether due to hatred of the Catholic Church, sexuality or other factors.

The Catholic Church as a long way to go in terms of dealing with and recovering from the priest abuse scandal but there are other groups that also need to be called out for their roles in either advocating for or openly supporting the molestation of little boys. Let's give it to them as well.

Just something to consider.

Jay

P.S. Before you try, if that's your line of reasoning, to label me a homophobe or intolerant, please read my CSA story & know that I am a proud to admit I enjoy being bisexual.


_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#330555 - 05/01/10 11:12 PM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: westsidej]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Westside, I'm not into labelling people so I don't call you a homophobe. However, I do strongly disagree with your comment that gay men are responsible for the sexual abuse of male children in the church. Homosexuality is an orientation and pedophilia is a disorder, period. Its apples and oranges, as they say. Sure a homosexual can also be a pedophile but if you read the statistics regarding who sexually abuses children, boys or girls, the majority of perpretrators are straight. On this note I would also add that prepubescent boys are more feminine in appearance than masculine so why would gay men be attracted to this? Anyways to me the greater issue in the church doesn't have anything to do with sexual orientation. Rather, it is about a corrupt power structure that represses human sexuality it its teachings and doctrine which is passed down the chain of command and manifests itself in abuse. Just my thoughts. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#330579 - 05/02/10 12:35 AM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: jls]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: jls
Westside, I'm not into labelling people so I don't call you a homophobe. However, I do strongly disagree with your comment that gay men are responsible for the sexual abuse of male children in the church. Homosexuality is an orientation and pedophilia is a disorder, period. Its apples and oranges, as they say. Sure a homosexual can also be a pedophile but if you read the statistics regarding who sexually abuses children, boys or girls, the majority of perpretrators are straight...


JLS,

I'm taking this offline, in keeping w/ ms.org policy, but wanted to correct something you wrote.

I didn't say it was solely gay men responsible for the sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church. You may want to separate homosexuality from pedophilia in this case and I don't blame you, but the statistics say otherwise. It was a super majority homosexual priests abusing young boys to the tune of at least 85% of all known, key word known, instances of abuse. Given that boys are more reluctant to come forward than girls to report csa, the percentage may be even higher.

However, my point was and still is that we should not rush to judge solely because we have a vendetta against Pope Benedict, Catholic Church or organized religion in general.

There's too much glee from some brothers about the short and long-term repercussions stemming from the pedophile priests on the Catholic Church & specifically the Vatican.

I'm just suggesting that it's not a good outlet for anger or how you are inadvertently (at least I hope) insulting other brothers who are Catholic and use their faith to both heal from the csa and as a road map for their lives.

Take care my brothers and have a great week.

Jay

_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#330587 - 05/02/10 01:25 AM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: westsidej]
Geeders Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 1901
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
From: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html

"Conclusion

The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children. "

I had read recently that approximately 85% of males who sexually offend against children self-identify as heterosexual. I think I accept the conclusion drawn above better.

Jim

_________________________
My name is Jim
WoR Mysthaven 2008, Level 2 WoR Alta 2009, Kirkridge 2010, 2011, Oprah 200 men

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#330595 - 05/02/10 02:27 AM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: westsidej]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Just because the abusive acts involve an adult and child of the same sex doesn't make it homosexual with regards to orientation. Like I said in my last reply, gay men are attracted to other men, not children, regardless of their gender. Sure there are gay and lesbian pedophiles out there but they don't make up the majority of offenders. How can they when they are minorities in the first place? The numbers just don't add up.

To do with the church I don't take any glee in what is happening. As a Canadian I can attest that this country was in shock many years ago when the Mount Cashel story broke, followed by successive news of residential school abuses involving the church and state colluding to keep it quiet over the decades, not just amongst Catholics but among other Christian denominations also. I suppose its no wonder I've lost faith in organized religion, as well as my government. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#330646 - 05/02/10 02:00 PM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: jls]
pufferfish Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6864
Loc: USA
This is of course inappropriate:

In a small cathedral a janitor was cleaning the pews between services when he was approached by the minister. The minister asked the janitor, "Could you go into the confessional and listen to confessions for me? I really have to go to the bathroom and the Widow McGee is coming. She tends to go on but never really does anything worthy of serious repentance, so when she's done just give her 10 Hail Mary's and I'll be right back."

Being the helpful sort, the janitor agreed. Just as expected the Widow McGee came into the booth and started her confession. "Oh Father, I fear I have done the unforgivable. I have given into carnal thoughts and have had oral sex."

Stunned, the janitor had no idea how to handle this situation. Surely 10 Hail Mary's would not do. So, in a moment of desperation the janitor peered his head out of the confessional and asked an altar boy, "Son, what does the minister give for oral sex?"

In reply the altar boy said, "Two Snickers bars and a Coke."


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#330710 - 05/02/10 06:16 PM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: pufferfish]
westsidej Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 150
Loc: Minnesota
Pufferfish, that's so old it makes the shroud of Turin look like a prop in a Macy's window on 42nd Street. wink

_________________________
My CSA story TRIGGERS!!!!

The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict. Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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#330724 - 05/02/10 06:46 PM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: pufferfish]
petercorbett Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 2435
Loc: TEXAS
Hi, my fraternal brothers.

Allen, you sure got my funny bone on that one.

But, my brothers, i do not condone what has happened about all the sexual abuse, etc. Committed by the religious of the Catholic church.

But, my brothers, i am ONE of the ones that were saved by the intercession of a Catholic family & parish priest. I have said it before if it wasn't for them. i in all probability would have been either maimed or killed by my "mother", as in her fits of rage she would throw knives at me, and use anything that was handy to beat me.

As one can see, on the bottom of my posts, is the institution where i was saved. As long as i was in their care i was safe from all perpetrators, and when i was away from their protection (summer school vacations) i was fresh meat once again to all my abusers.

For the last 50+ years either in the military or in civilian life, when i was asked my religious preference i answered.....
Catholic retired. But we can't put that down. I told them if i can be retired from the military, then why can't i be retired from my religion?

Also, like i have said before, when another one of my fraternal brothers, here in the MS web site contacted me and told me that he went to that same orphanage/Home.............
But unlike me, who was safe from my perpetrators. He was sexually abused by one of the religious brothers there.

So my haven....was his HELL.

Just some one elses perspective.

Sure is a sad state of affairs, my brothers, real sad.

Heal well, my fraternal brothers, heal well.

Pete..Irishmoose.

_________________________
Working Boys' Home 10-14 yrs old, grades 5-8. 1949-1953
____________________________________________________________
A very humble alumni of the WOR Dahlonega, GA.
May 15-17 2009, Alta, Sep. 2009. Sequoia, 2010.
Hope Springs, 2010.


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#330759 - 05/02/10 08:39 PM Re: Ratzinger was complicite! [Re: westsidej]
Ever-fixed Mark Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 729
Loc: United States
Hey Westsidej,

I think there are several points in your post that I'd like to draw your attention to.

First, handing disproportionate responsibility for the sexual abuse within the Catholic Church to "gay men" is based on misunderstandings and simplifications of human sexuality, and lacks any basis in the research. If you have peer reviewed research that supports your contention, please post the citations here so that we can all see them.

This is also one of the litany of scapegoat excuses that the church uses to deflect blame for their own culpability while achieving their political and social objectives to demean and dehumanize gay men.

Second, you are conflating a very specific discussion of sexual abuse by the religious and clergy of the Catholic Church with a much larger discussion about sexual abuse in society and it's completely unclear to me why you think this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Introducing a group like NAMBLA into the dialog is hyperbolic in the extreme. This tiny group is rejected by gays and straights alike because they don't seem to understand the very simple concept of "informed consent". They may try to identify themselves as gay, or you may believe them to be gay, but they are not. The link that Geeders provided earlier in this thread is most instructive on this point drawing out the distinctions between gays, pedophiles, and child molesters in a clear fashion.

If you want to understand the makeup of perpetrators in the broader society this will be useful background (all citations are in the original text):

Quote:
Approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children. Most sexual abuse offenders are acquainted with their victims; approximately 30% are relatives of the child, most often brothers, fathers, uncles or cousins; around 60% are other acquaintances such as 'friends' of the family, babysitters, or neighbors; strangers are the offenders in approximately 10% of child sexual abuse cases. Most child sexual abuse is committed by men; studies show that women commit 14% to 40% of offenses reported against boys and 6% of offenses reported against girls. Most offenders who sexually abuse prepubescent children are pedophiles; however, some offenders do not meet the clinical diagnosis standards for pedophilia.

If your goal was to say that sexual abuse is a problem that is much bigger than the Catholic Church you would get no argument from me, even though I'm obliged to remind you that we are only discussing the Catholic Church. However, if your contention is that gay men are the prime perpetrators of sexual abuse within and without the church, as this seems to imply, then I have to protest in the strongest possible terms and ask for citations to support this highly offensive claim.

-efm

_________________________

Everybody here's got a story to tell
Everybody's been through their own hell
There's nothing too special about getting hurt
Getting over it, that takes the work

- "Duck and Cover" by Glen Phillips

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