This is really hard to post. Not that it's easier for anyone else but I never talk about this.

If I don't start somewhere and try to put an end to this, or try to understand myself better, I'm afraid I won't ever turn back and this isn't exactly the safest or healthiest road to go down.

Just when I think I'm the only one going through something I see a post that I can directly relate too and even though I wish there wasn't a need for a place such as this, I hope this is one of those things that at least one other person out here can relate too as well.

I am straight. 100%, no doubt in my mind. I love women, all women! I am not attracted to men physically, emotionally or otherwise. I am, however, attracted to (or turned on by) the actions of a stronger man who can over power me.

To say it like it is... a father figure.

It's not an attraction to the "person", it's an attraction to the "act". Does that make any sense?

Obviously this has to be directly related to my abuse right? Since my father was the main abuser.

If this was just something I thought about or fantasized about it might be easier to deal with. But it's not. This is something I act upon and I wish I had a dime for every time I re-visited the trauma I went through as a child vicariously through someone else.

I have spoken in general about this with my therapist but I'm not ready to sit there and let it all out face to face. I makes me feel like shit.

Any thoughts/opinions/advice are appreciated as always.

Thanks!
Justin

Justin,

Thanks for having the courage to start exploring what this is and what it means to you. Starting here means you are a step closer to working on it with your therapist.

I think about the abuse too, I replay it in my mind and feel the sexual charge in it now that I didn't realize then because I really didn't understand sex. My father had died four years earlier and I'd been away from my mother for several years so I was scared and felt abandoned by all adults.

I think about my abuser and play through what happened to me in my mind as much as I can remember. I think I do it to feel a connection to the sexual part of myself that was devastated and lost so many years ago. It's one of the few ways I can have that feeling of sexual connection.

I also identify with the older, father, or power dynamic you talk about. I feel like my abuse sexualized the power dynamic between men. Whenever I notice the power imbalance there is something very sexual about it. When I feel vulnerable I can move into fantasies about the power dynamic, I used to explore it with porn, but now I'm aware of it and I haven't acted out in person.

I'm a gay man and I'm in a long term relationship with a guy younger than me and a very different physical type to my abuser.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say that this is to do with your abuser. From the way you wrote about it, it may be the act, or the power relationship in the act, which is the core of it for you. Are you always in a specific role in these encounters? What are your feelings before, during and after?

-efm

Thanks for the reply, I like that; "power dynamic" that's a good way to say it.

I don't exactly think about the abuse nor do I feel any sexual charge with regard to anything my father did to me. As far as I can remember, after the initial confusion, shock and anger at what was happening I simply learned how to play his game and numbed out. That was it.

Even though I hate to say it, thanks for being able to relate to this. It's just one of those things I am NOT comfortable with.

When I get in that "zone" where I go looking for it, there are a lot of feelings tied up there. Before, I'm just a shell of a person on a mission. I could care less what happens to me, I could care less if I die, I just know what I "need" and I need to get hurt. The more I think about it the stronger the desire is.

During, it's hard to say, sometimes I feel like a 10 year old again, sometimes I feel scared, sometimes I feel really good about it like I'm serving some kind of great purpose, like I am good at it and have this false sense of power. Sometimes I just want it to stop and usually by then it's too late, then I get off on knowing I have no choice in the matter. So, a lot of feelings there.

After? that's easy, guilt, shame, humiliation swearing to myself that I'll never go back there and once in a while a quick trip to the ER.

When you say specific role what do you mean?

Thanks again.

Hmmm. I was asking if you saw yourself as the most powerful person in the encounter, or the least powerful.

-efm

The least

Yeah, that's where I am, too. Do you feel like you have less power than others in your life in general? In other words, is this experience a "holiday" from being in charge all the time...

-efm

No way, in my life in general I'm always the one making the decisions, the plans, telling people what to do, etc. So yes I guess it's like a "holiday" from all that. It's an interesting way to look at it.

Like I said, if this was just me having bad thoughts or fantasies that would be one thing. But it's not.

I'm in a relationship with a girl and she knows about it. She tries her best to do whatever it is I need, but it's not the same.

It just makes me so sick I can't stand myself. I get nothing out of doing this.

Joe Kort, Ph.D., has a blog called "Straight Guise" that addresses the very issue you are bringing up. Joe will be doing a guest column here on sexuality in the near future. In the meantime, you can get some info on this at:

http://www.joekort.com/articles91.htm

It sounds like some attraction toward re-victimization, where you have some sort of attraction toward re-living the abuse, perhaps hoping that the end result will be different, or perhaps as a sign of ownership over one's own body. Such a desire is not a terribly unusual symptom of this affliction either, it is down the same path as a number of symptoms of either acting-out or acting inwards. People who cut or otherwise abuse themselves operate from a similar position, perhaps somewhat similar to hard-core drug addicts and/or those who enjoy receiving sexual pain and/or enjoy being restrained and/or dominated, being put in a position over which they have no control. Perhaps you might benefit from our acting-out or acting-inward forums. You would have to PM Ken Singer to discuss entering either of those forums.

The good news is that there is hope to overcome this problem through your recovery. Part of the solution is overcoming your negative shame, and a re-victimization loop continues to reinforce negative shame. Victims enjoy the initial act but they find the act shameful later. The process of rebuilding your self-esteem and self-confidence, in effect learning to love and value yourself enough so that you wouldn't want to hurt yourself, is also part of the solution in moving beyond these negative re-victimization behaviors. I'm not an expert, just a layman, you should try to bring this up with a qualified therapist, Ken Singer would be as good a choice as any.

Hope that this helps you a little,

Mark

JBells, you are onto something here. Keep examining it. I can relate to what you are going through, and also the not wanting to reveal it in order to get help, but look, you did take that step, now take another. Surround yourself with support. Use the support to help you.

As for the comment of... I get nothing out of it.... I would submit that you get shame out of it. The feelings of shame, they are so freakin strong. Take a deep breath, I say to myself.

Peace.

JBells,

I can see similarities and differences between our present experiences. I don't know if this will help you or not, but I'll tell you about myself. You were honest with me, so I will be honest with you.

I also feel I am straight, and was before the abuse, but as I have no sexual experience, I might be in denial. I don't know. I do not feel gay in any way other than in my fantasies, which are random variations of my abuse.

More often than not, I fantasize that I am being physically overpowered - which is odd in itself, as I was not physically overpowered during my abuse. I won't go into details that might be triggering or inappropriate, but when I am done with the fantasy, I feel ashamed of myself for having it.

Trucker Mark may have hit upon the reason - perhaps I am trying to relive my abuse in order to change it in my mind. I have noticed more and more frequently that I am getting angry in my fantasy about being overpowered. Perhaps one day I'll fantasize that I will say, "NO!" and that will change it.

I'm not sure if this is helpful, but I thought at the very least you would like to hear that someone else has similar experiences.

Good luck in your recovery, buddy.

Bobcat

I also like what Mark had to say. I think for so long I wanted to relive my abuse, it was all I knew. I was defining my entire sexuality by that my csa. I guess I've had to learn how to get away from that thinking, realize there is so much more to me, so much more to my sexuality.

In regards to the father figure, I think for so long I wanted that as well, and I know I still have moments where I feel like I really crave it. I think I have this craving for being babied if you can understand that logic. Like you I feel like I always have to take care of myself and look out for myself and sometimes I just want a break, want someone else to take care of me. I think Mark touched on that a bit as do I think you did Justin.

Very powerful post.

There is a part of me that I think is really loathing my abuser and the abuse cause I feel like I had to grow up so much before my time and didn't really get that time to be a kid. Had to learn how to defend myself.

Great post, thanks for sharing.

Charles.

Thanks everyone, it's all good information and it all helps. I want too (need too) deal with it but then again I don't.

The blog was interesting, I could write pages and pages about various items there and how it directly relates to how I feel.

I guess I'm not too concerned with where it comes from, I already know where it comes from. I'm more concerned with how I get rid of feeling like I need to do these things. And I guess that's why I'm here talking about it, as shameful as it is.

Brother2none you're right, I do get shame out of it but not until after it's over, then there's more guilt than shame. But those are two tiny pieces of it.

Bobcat, yes what you wrote is helpful and thanks for letting me know that you share similar experiences.

I keep thinking in my head, I hated it so much back then when I didn't have a choice so if I hated it so much then why would I subject myself to it now? Is it a combination of wanting to change the outcome? Looking for a father figure? Would I have been into this lifestyle even if I wasn't abused? Maybe I'm just out of my damn mind! All I really know for sure is I'll more than likely go back again at some point. I love it but I hate it, I want it but I don't, it makes me feel good and it makes me feel like shit, it's exciting but it's terrifying.

Thanks again everyone.

Justin

And when I'm feeling particularly triggered and/or overwhelmed is when I want to go there. Just let someone else take over and give me pain to focus on so I don't have to think about anything else for a while.

Your last post is a great insight, Justin. I think that is a great place to start talking about this with your T the next time you see him.

Just remember you aren't alone, lot's of us are trying to understand how we are wired in the wake of our experiences.

-efm

*

Jbells, thanks for sharing this topic with us and bring it up.

I too, feel this way sometimes, but maybe it is for different reasons.
It sounds to me that you have as Joe Kort puts it "Father Hunger." But then again I am not an expert.

For me I sometimes fantasize about me being abused again, like me being the victim and being over powered and then I feel so disgusted for felling that or even thinking like that. I feel so much Shame and Guilt for thinking this way. I have acted out with much older guys and at the time aI had not idea why the hell I was doing it, just that I felt this compulsive urge to do so. come to think of it, I still have no idea as to why I do, did or would ever feel that way.
I find women attractive and like to fantasize about them but acting with them sexually feels scary and dangerous. I know that i have certain fears of women and am working on them right now in therapy.

I have to go
My dad's home

Logan

J, while I can't tell you what makes you act out the occurrence of your abuse, I can tell you with absolute certainty that you are not alone. I too revisit my abuse and even relive it physically , but by my own hands. I have somehow developed the strength to over power myself, both mentally and physically, and like you I feel disgusted and worthless afterward, however I continually repeat it.
HOLD FAST my brother, we are here for you and want to help you find the answers while we search for our own. Be kind to yourself.

It's like a drug isn't it?

I used to self harm but after a while it just wasn't good enough.

I don't remember the moment I thought going back to one of my abusers was a good idea. I remember needing something and feeling overwhelmed and anxious and the next thing I remember was being at his house.

The strange thing is, I hate being there, I hate him and what he does to me, I hate myself for being too weak to control myself but I felt safe. How does that happen? How does a person feel safe in an abusive and potentially dangerous situation?

Am I misinterpreting the feelings? Am I thinking I feel "safe" when really I'm just responding to what I'm used to, what I felt was normal for so long? Why is it that on my way there it's the best feeling in the world yet the minute I walk through the door I'm full of regret?

Why can't I say "no".

Why do I feel like need to be used in this way to feel valuable?

Jbells, I feel all that you feel, the guilt and shame. The difference between the two is important. And guilt comes from compromising your own morals, so I can see why that it is much stronger for u, it all fits together so cruelly. Find a positive intervention act.or behavior when you feel triggered. Do it once and see.

*

J Bells,
May I offer my opinion? This comes from someone who has lived the hell you describe.

I was shown a number of years ago that the only difference between sex and rape is consent.

At the age of 10 you were legally and developmentally unable to consent to something that you knew no implications of.

I was shown that it is a survival technique that we use in order to minimise the continuing pain and trauma that we go through, that we re-live those experiences - deliberately putting ourselves in detestible situations - in order that we can apply a veneer of consent. Us going back to those abusive situations is an attempt to make them feel less traumatic. Of course it only lasts while it is happening and afterwards we feel re-traumatised.

So what do we do about it? I was shown that it helps if we can put in a delay tactic then we can outlive the drive to act out. For example, for me that meant I would say to myself "OK, I feel the need to go and engage in 'risky behaviour' and act out, but I'm going to wait until my day off and see how I feel then and if I still feel like it then OK off I go".

Often the crisis would pass in a few hours or days and I didn't act out. I felt good. I learned that it is possible to avoid the bad feelings. Still I tripped and fell - it wasn't plain sailing. But I learned to extend the deadlines. I learned to substitute the acting our for ever softer porn.

Using this technique I have not acted out in about 3 years. Its many months since I set out to look at naked men on line. I feel that I have re-claimed my sexuality and preserved my 28 year marriage.

Shyte it has not been easy. I have made some friends along the way that have been OK with me calling them late at night - without telling them that their answering the phone will mean that I don't go out and do something that I will regret.

Yes I am in counselling - and have been for 6 years but this is one subject that I have dealt with alone - one last vestige of privacy in an otherwise life laid bare.

I offer this to you as a way that has worked for me. First understanding, then delaying then avoiding and then celebrating what I have achieved.

I do not offer myself as a super human - I am a man tormented as you are by an objectionable period in his growing years.

I know, categorically KNOW that it is not a place that you have to remain in. There is a way out into however you wish to celebrate your sexuality of choice.

I wish you well and encourage you to have a go.

Endure and Prevail

ADen

Again, thank you to all who have replied to this.

Aden, thanks for the input.
When you say the only difference between sex and rape is consent. I would agree with that but I am also conflicted about that on a personal level.

Sure, I voluntarily go over there and put myself into these situations. I consent to getting into a scene with this person, but once I'm there and things start to roll there is no more consent and it sure as hell feels like rape to me. As sick as this may sound and as messed up as I am about it, that's what thrills me about it. I truly hate myself for feeling that way but I can't deny that I have these feelings.

Do I blame him for all this? Well, yeah when I was 15 years old and he, a guy much older than me took advantage of my bad and vulnerable situation, yes that was wrong. But now that I'm older and can make my own decisions and take responsibility for my own actions, no I don't blame him. After all, if I don't respect myself why should he?

And continuing to be honest with myself, you know the whole thing about the BDSM lifestyle is that it's about trust and safety and consent and safe-words and all of that.

Somehow I took this so far with him that none of that applies any longer. Once I'm in the position where I'm powerless, I am truly powerless. It doesn't matter what I say, what I do, what condition I am in mentally or physically, he only stops when he's ready too and when he's done, I'm gone, tossed out like yesterdays garbage. Sometimes that feels good to me and hours later I'm always full of suffocating regret.

Well I've laid it all out on the table now and I'm pretty ashamed of myself. I'm burning with embarrassment but as I said above, I have to be honest with myself if I want to get through all this. So I'll take my medicine as bitter as it might be. No sugar coating please!

This isn't all that I am but it's a big part of who I am. I don't know if I can accept that.

*

JBells,

I read your last reply, and I knew I needed to respond to it. So here goes...

First, understand that you are not alone in how you feel and act. I replied earlier that I reenact my abuse through masturbation, and that I feel ashamed of myself afterward. I think you and I are facing roughly the same issue. So the rest of this reply is as much for myself as it is for you.

First, let's ditch our shame of ourselves, buddy; you and me. Shame doesn't accomplish much by itself, and it certainly hasn't changed our behaviors. In fact, the more we abuse ourselves, the more shame we feel, and that isn't healthy for either of us. This might help us to abandon that shame:

Abusing ourselves is a coping mechanism. It's not a good one, but I don't see it as much different than abusing alcohol or drugs. The ways in which you and I abuse ourselves are not immoral, or sinful, or criminal, or hurting anyone else; they are just coping mechanisms. So let's you and I understand that these coping mechanisms, while not terrific, have at least brought us to this point in our lives. Now let's start getting rid of our shame (which wasn't warranted in the first place) that we had to use these coping mechanisms, and start looking for better ones. Do you agree, buddy?

Next, I want to look at these statements in your last reply:

"I truly hate myself for feeling that way..."
"After all, if I don't respect myself why should he?"
"Well I've laid it all out on the table now and I'm pretty ashamed of myself."

I have said these same words too, buddy, countless times. My thoughts are that we don't love or respect ourselves. So let's relax a little, you and I - we've both been there and now we each know someone else who is/has been there as well. Since our respective abuses are likely to blame for our lack of self-love and self-respect, let's skip that and move on to what we are doing about it.

My theory is that my being raped fantasies during masturbation and your desire to be overpowered sexually are both similar attempts to recreate our abuses. Why would we do that? I think we do it to justify not loving ourselves. If we truly loved ourselves, would we try to recreate our abuses? Probably not. I think you and I are trying to punish ourselves, because it's easier to punish ourselves than try the much harder alternative - loving ourselves.

Here's my train of thought:
* We felt we were good people once, and then we were abused. When we were abused, we were taught to feel guilt and shame.
* If we feel guilt and shame, then we must not be good people anymore.
* If we are not good people anymore, then we shouldn't love ourselves.
* If we don't love ourselves, then we should hate ourselves and punish ourselves and feel shame in order to change.
* How should we punish ourselves? Here's a thought: let's hurt ourselves the way our perps hurt us; that was successful, after all.

I think that explains why you and I punish ourselves by our reenactments. I think you and I are trying to change our lives while simultaneously punishing ourselves for the abuse. Since the two don't seem to work well together, let's ditch one of them. How about...let's ditch the punishments?

Okay. How do we do that, though? Well, let's work backward through my train of thought:
* If we don't punish ourselves, we might learn not to hate ourselves.
* If we learn to stop hating ourselves, we might learn to love ourselves.
* If we love truly ourselves, we might learn to let go of the shame and guilt we were TAUGHT to feel.
* If we let go of those teachings of shame and guilt, then we might truly understand that our abuses were not our faults, and that we still are - AND ALWAYS WERE - good people.
* And that will reinforce us to love ourselves.

There's our motivation, buddy. Now comes the hard part: the work. #1: We need to stop punishing ourselves, and it won't be easy. Punishing ourselves is easier than learning to love ourselves, but we've been punishing ourselves for a looong time, and if it's so effective, why are we looking for a better solution? Punishing ourselves doesn't help you or me, buddy; learning to love ourselves will.

JBells, do you want to punish yourself the rest of your life for something that wasn't even your fault in the first place? I don't think you do, and I know I don't. Let's try this together, okay? We'll climb this mountain together. If you slip, reach for my hand, and I'll help you back up. I hope I can depend on your hand to help me up too, buddy. Conquering our abuses will be much easier if we help each other, instead of trying it alone.

Give me your hand, buddy, and let's try living a better life.

Send me a PM if you are interested, okay?

Your MS brother,

Bobcat

Wow, you have no idea how much I needed to read something like this. Thank you. I will PM you.

Ditto for the "WOW."

Bobcat, that was really helpful. Thank you very much for sharing that!

your pal,
Logan

Aden, I am so totally understanding your clarity in your last post. You described it so completely.

Another Ditto for the WOW Bobcat.

Gentlemen,

Thank you for posting this thread.

All I know from my time in recovery, is that i acted out alot in my older teens, with older men, evneutaly it stoped but, still felt guilty about it. I understand how you feel Jbells, and I hope you'll still keep in contact with me and others, for help.

Hi, my fraternal brothers.

WOW, my brother Bobcat, surely spelled it out, along with my other brothers here.

Acting out...Sometimes i still do it. It's a work in progress.

Heal well, my fraternal brothers, heal well.

Pete..Irishmoose.

Thanks for starting this thread Justin, it was very brave, and as you can see, as we start to talk about these things openly it helps many other people along the way, and we see that we are not alone in this.

And Bobcat, i couldn't say it any better than you have! very good response, and spot-on.

Lewis

I needed this thread right now more than you can know. Thanks.

I can fully relate to feeling that I was once a good person, and then bad stuff happened and I have been defective ever since, or at least since I remembered. And I have punished myself for that for a long time. It greatly affects my relationships. It fuels distressing and dangerous behaviors. I need to quit punishing myself. When I am able to get to my core, I really am a decent person. But I still act on the shame and guilt, and feelings that I am not a good person. I really puts me in a bad place. Thanks again.

Eric