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#328388 - 04/14/10 04:05 PM Re: no survivor here [Re: usmc97]
TheBobcatAgain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 507
Loc: AZ, U.S.A.
USMC97,

I have listened to you tell your story to me in chat, and I hope I was supportive; I wanted and tried to be. I told you that if you tell me something that sounds unusual, then I believe you. "Your word is damned good enough for me." I hope that sounds familiar, buddy.

I'm sorry that you have received hateful PMs - that is not the purpose of this site.

I would like you to consider this perspective. You said that survivors here are always suggesting this or that treatment for your recovery, but that their suggestions are largely useless for you. Buddy, it's how they are showing their support. In my experience, men are more apt to try to help "fix" another's problems, and less inclined simply to listen and offer sympathy. I try to fix others myself sometimes. But it's just how some men show that they care.

You have told me how you are still being abused - and I think I understand it. You don't think of yourself as a "survivor", and therefore, you feel you don't belong here at MaleSurvivor. I just want you to know that I have met other men here who are still being abused, and I consider them - and you - every bit my brothers as someone whose abuse is over.

You belong here, my brother USMC97. As others have said before me, you are family.

I hope this message is helpful to you.

Your loving brother,

Bobcat


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#328396 - 04/14/10 05:21 PM Re: no survivor here [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Hey Kevin:

Alan, Andy, and I met Scott Zkhatt 10 days ago in Broomfield, and Scott and I have been talking about a group get-together in either the Springs or maybe we will do some 4-wheeling uphill and end-up in Cripple Creek for some prime rib and crab legs. You would be welcome to come along, my pickup will hold 5 guys in a pinch, it's a 4-door Dakota. Or maybe we will drive two cars, and Scott will bring his wife along too. Problem is, we live almost 100 miles apart, and there are only so many opportunities to get down there, or for you to come up here. You could drive up here every weekend if you want to, but that would become kind of expensive for you too. You want more social life with guys who have some understanding of this condition, there are a bunch of us around Denver. Heck, I even have a couple of Avs playoff tickets for next Sunday night that are still unspoken for. Maybe meet early downtown for dinner and then experience an Avs playoff game at the Pepsi Center Sunday night?

Wish you could have made the NYC conference, even Mike Lew's workshop there, just for the opportunity to make all of the connections that I was able to make there. Every day I get emails from somebody from Mike Lew's group, just between yesterday and today I must have received 10 emails from this group, plus a number of our members were in attendance too, and I'm certain that some of them will be lifelong friends. You complain about a lack of friends, and if you would just make a little effort, maybe attend one of these groups, you would literally have dozens of people to talk to who have some understanding of this issue, and who won't look down on you or need to know how you're still suffering, people who will accept you for who you are, not for who you were or what happened in your past.

I don't know what you do for work, nor do I know if your boss is as supportive as my boss in Denver was for me. I don't know if you are on disability. What really helped me achieve what I have in recovery is enjoying some understanding support from a number of people. My stepdad was a wonderful guy, very supportive and understanding, my stepdad's friend Jeff had achieved his own success in his own recovery back in the early 1990s and he was quite supportive, after my mom got her Master's degree in counseling with an emphasis on an awareness of sexual abuse recovery issues, and with the support and guidance of my stepdad, we were able to repair our relationship, and then my bosses at work were both very supportive guys, especially our General Manager, who was one of these guys who loved to praise his workforce and supply them with opportunities for his praise.

Like you, I had learned most all of the recovery knowledge, the challenge as with anything is attempting to put that knowledge into daily practice. I got lucky. I had lots of understanding and supportive help in my life, even though as an over-the-road trucker, these people certainly weren't around on a daily basis either. I talked to my boss once or twice per day on the phone and saw him once or twice per week, I talked to my mom and stepdad once per week or less, I saw my stepdad's friend Jeff a couple of times per year on average. I also had a small group of friends here around Denver who knew of my struggle, who were supportive of my progress, and who I saw on the weekend when I was home. To get to where I am these days I had to be willing to take some chances, I had to be willing to risk failure in order to possibly gain from success, and I had to have some better coping skills than withdrawing and acting out or inwards with cocaine too. The process of rebuilding my self-esteem and self-confidence was a large part of my success, as doing so enabled me to take greater steps entailing greater risk without a fear of failure, and for your recovery to be successful, we will need to figure-out a way to build your self-esteem and self-confidence too.

This is what really worked for me, this is what got me away from obsessing about my past to gradually moving away from the restrictions of from my past, to the point where I was gradually able to "let-go" of my past and ever more confidently embrace a future increasingly unafficted by my past. I had to have understanding and supportive help to accomplish this transition, I couldn't have done this on my own.

Do you have a copy of Ken Singer's new book, EVICTING THE PERPETRATOR? If you don't, I would be willing to let you borrow mine. In my own opinion, Ken's book is a great book for those of us trying to move beyond mid to advanced stage recovery, much as Mic Hunter's book ABUSED BOYS is a great introductory text for those just coming into recovery. Occupying the middle ground is Mike Lew's book VICTIMS NO LONGER, and all 3 books do overlap some.

Anyhow, we can't change the past, all that we can do is resolve to make a fresh start, be willing to make a few "baby steps", take a few small risks, be willing to open ourselves-up just a little bit, and try to meet people who might be able to help us halfway, even part of the way. There are 8 MS members around Denver who are all working their way through mid to advanced recovery, plus an unknown number of other guys attending either Kempe or Wings recovery groups too. I know that Wings has 3 Denver-area groups weekly plus a group in Boulder. I do not know what the Kempe Center offers, I attended a Wings group in Lakewood myself in 1996.

So in my own opinion Kevin, the key to moving forward through advanced recovery is in finding enough in the way of supportive and understanding people who are willing to overlook our faults and praise our strengths to eventually regain the self-esteem and self-confidence that has been missing from our lives. Once we are secure in ourselves and our abilities it becomes much easier to "let-go" of the past and embrace our future unafflicted by our past. I won't kid you, it is a gradual process, and there may yet be some setbacks to overcome too. If you are willing to take a chance and keep taking chances, I'm willing to try to meet you halfway, I'm sure that Andy and Alan would be too.

You have to be willing to take a chance and meet us halfway, you have to be willing to try to have an open mind, you have to be willing to try to let-go of the past and its many setbacks and attempt to move forward once again without your past.

Let us know,

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#328413 - 04/14/10 09:04 PM Re: no survivor here [Re: Trucker51]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I donít have the ability to leave things in the past or ďlet goĒ because things are not just in the past, maybe thatís too much to comprehend. I do have friends and work really hard to maintain my relationships with them, it just gets really tough with all the limitations of time and distance combined with the restrictions I have. I am on disability, it donít much show in appearance but yes the issues are there. I do everything that I am capable of doing when I am able, I am not always able, I donĎt get to choose.

Itís impossible for me to travel by myself most of the time and takes forever when I do, takes 3 hours or more just for me to go to Denver which is the farthest Iíve been able to go alone for years.

Iíve been to WINGS, they failed me miserably, they deemed me and what I deal with as too much. The VA has done what they can and also failed to even provide general safety for me to be assaulted in their care. Groups of ďsurvivorsĒ hasnít been he best experience for me, Iíve found that what I go through is not accepted when it comes down to it with most folks. I donít have enough left to play around with failure and taking ďrisksĒ, I donít respond as others do, I know myself and I know what I was before. Thereís no practice to be had with coping or anything else, it doesnít help, I know what helps just donĎt get to have much of it. Problem is not having very much relief to combat all I have to go through, I donít get anything to self medicate or take anything away. This is real, no "playing victim" crap.(other post got me upset to read that because I don't know how many times I've been labeled)

I would like to meet you guys all together but I donít want to give a false expectationÖ I donít get to choose who I feel safe around, it just happens. Iíve met Alan before, and Andy I feel is pretty close to me. I also met a couple other guys from up there but itís been so long, MarkK and KenKen, if youíre still out there.

I do understand people try to care, I don't know how to balance good intensions with the hurt it might cause, I'll tell someone that they are not helping. If I haven't said that directly to someone, then you haven't made me feel hurt.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#328416 - 04/14/10 10:40 PM Re: no survivor here [Re: usmc97]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
"I donít have the ability to leave things in the past or ďlet goĒ because things are not just in the past, maybe thatís too much to comprehend".

I used to feel that way myself, always blaming this, that, or the other thing for my actions or current thoughts, never being able to separate my past from my present. I know how much it hurts to lose something too, at one time I was a teenage gang member in Pontiac, MI and I had lots of friends, and lots of people who either respected me or feared me. When my parents moved away to Cleveland when I was age 19, it kind of yanked the rug out from under me. It hasn't been until recently that I have been able to enjoy a social group anywhere near as large as the one that I was forced to leave behind in Michigan in 1975.

I still firmly believe that in order to get to where you would like to be, you will have to learn how to separate yourself from the bad parts of your past, and separate the bad parts of your past from who you are in the present. It may be a lengthy struggle, trying to cut away this part or that, or you could do what someone else suggested, get an old suitcase, put all of your "baggage" in it, and toss it out of the car window on the freeway at high speed, try to make a quick break from your past. You have to learn to live in the present, and learn to build for the future, you have to be willing to let the past go.

Years ago after so many of their old steel mills closed and the jobs were lost, the city of Youngstown, Ohio paid a noted urban planner from England to come to Youngstown to see if he could help the city recapture its past glory. He took one look and told them to tear down all of the old abandoned steel mills and get that memory out of their mind, he told them that with all of the abandoned mills sitting there, and all of the finger-pointing as to why the past had left them, that they were never going to be able to embrace their present reality and plan to move forward without their past. Much as they didn't like what he had to say then, he was right.

I know that it is hard when the present seems so intertwined with the past, but in order to get to your future without your past affecting it, you have to start to let-go of your past somewhere. You know all of the recovery information, you even think that you know what works and what doesn't. Nothing is going to work if you keep hanging on to your past and keep blaming it for your present. You have to start somewhere to release your past Kevin, and let me remind you that recovery is a whole lot easier when we have supportive people around us than it is alone.

I will be busy with school through the first weekend in May, then I will have a few weeks to give. Would you like to try to plan a get-together for mid-May? Alan has never taken Gold Camp Rd yet, I think that he would enjoy that, maybe take a look at the Broadmoor Hotel then head uphill, hit the American Eagle overlook in Victor, just us at the top of a mountain, surrounded by miles of CC&V gold strip mine, it would be a good remote place to talk and get to know one another. Then hit Cripple Creek for a casino buffet, have you home in time for supper???

Let us know, there is a way to move away from your past.

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#328430 - 04/15/10 01:08 AM Re: no survivor here [Re: Trucker51]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
You hear me but you are not listening to me!!!

It's not some emotional feeling it is how my life is, I was not always this thing I am now. There is no separation between my past and what I go through now, I don't know how to make anyone get that. This is what I ment by having to both be abused in an approved format and then "recovering" by a "survivor recognized" standard. I know it is not your intention but it is belittling to tell me that I don't know what I know. I am not just stuck in some psychological loop. Please don't come at me with this preconceived approach. I just went through the process of all of this on here, I already said this is the type of thing that's said to me and to what it translates into.




with the other part I could not commit to something like that, I'd need a safer initial meeting.

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#328433 - 04/15/10 01:41 AM Re: no survivor here [Re: usmc97]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
Recovery for me means to unlearn a whole lot of what got us to this point, and to learn then put into practice a better way to proceed. In my case this meant separating myself from my past, which happened gradually, as I put into practice more positive thoughts and actions, and gradually abandoned the negativity of my past thoughts and actions, as I learned to overcome my shame and my penchant for blaming others and events in my past.

What you are in effect saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that you are in worse shape now after lots of time in recovery, than you once were before your recovery even started? If that is true, then you are dealing with the effects of PTSD, one of the symptoms is starting to remember bits and pieces of what you have blocked-out from your active memory, then as more negative memories pour out, it gradually leads to a disabling condition.

How much of your victimization did you have good memories of your entire life since it happened? In my case, I remembered all of it the entire way since it happened, I never blocked any of it out. I do suffer from mild dissociation from time to time, but that nothing but a minor annoyance to some people when I drift off in conversation or I lose my keys. Are we talking recovered memories here, where you had a good life before you started remembering, then everything since has been a slippery slope? I'm not asking you to block-out your good memories, just your bad memories from who you are at present.

Bring your gold card, we'll go to the Broadmoor for dinner instead of going 4-wheeling.

Here are some photos of where I proposed going, just 40 miles west of where you live.

http://stevegarufi.com/americaneagleoutlook6.jpg

http://stevegarufi.com/americaneagleoutlook7.jpg

http://stevegarufi.com/americaneagleoutlook11.jpg

http://www.broadmoor.com/restaurants-colorado-springs.php

Mark

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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#328436 - 04/15/10 02:18 AM Dissociative Disorder [Re: usmc97]
recovery Offline
New Here

Registered: 03/11/07
Posts: 39
what is dissociative disorder. i don't think. there are two people inside of me. but, sometimes. i have triggers. and feel like their are two parts of me. i will look at something. and space out. and have a trigger. like my emotional pain is stuck in my subconscious mind. the emotional pain is like another ego. but, not too people inside of me.


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#328506 - 04/15/10 02:35 PM Re: no survivor here [Re: Trucker51]
usmc97 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 437
Loc: Colorado
I don't blame anybody for things I am responsible for, I seem to have the rare reality where there is a direct effect upon my life at the hands of my perps.

I don't claim to be in recovery, again, something that would have to be after the fact. I'm an expert on PTSD, it's the closest clinical diagnosis but it does not give explanation to all the things I experience. I didn't block things out, my memory was taken from me, something induced. The problem is not having bad memories, I had plenty of those before even if this stuff wasn't included. The problem is what was done to me then and what is done to me now.

I've been disabled from the military for years, 100% because of the things done to me. I don't know how to explain everything in a way to be understood.



I can't meet that way, not safe

_________________________
Semper Fi

The statistics? 1 in 4, 1 in 6?
...then there's me the imaginary number

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#328507 - 04/15/10 02:46 PM Re: no survivor here [Re: usmc97]
Trucker51 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 2826
Loc: Denver, CO
I'm out the door heading downtown to school, where would you suggest that would be safer?

_________________________
"We stay here, we die here. We've got to keep moving". Trucker Mark



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