Hi everyone,

I know my subject line is controversial, but I'm new to this site and I wanted to pose an idea. I will honestly not say that I can speak as an expert and if someone disagrees with me, then I desire to be disabused of my notions. I want to question that CSA has a profound effect on sexuality.

From my perspective, my CSA occurred when I was around 5 by the son of family friends. There was only one incident that I remember, but I'm not sure what else occurred. I grew up going to conservative catholic school and it was not a welcoming experience for me at all. As such, I didn't seek treatment or help for 16 years, I am 22 now. I never spoke about it with anyone, but I was shocked because when I started talking with people about my experience, I found out a lot of people I knew had gone through similar experiences. This is a subject that people talk about all the time, but almost never in a personal/concrete sense.

I want to question the notion that CSA affects sexuality because a lot of the posts on this forum seem to run along the line of "because I was sexually abused, I desire this". I was sexually abused when I was five; I couldn't have known what my "true" sexuality was before that point. I thought that I might possibly be gay for a long time, but after a lot of questioning, I realized that I'm mostly not attracted to men. I understand that I like sex a lot, but I like being that way in a consenting, comfortable environment. My CSA and education was the taking away of my sexuality. I wish to reclaim it, but only in a consenting, safe environment.

I would like to hear other perspectives on this issue since I really don't know what they are and I would like to write on this subject, but not at the expense of silencing or misrepresenting another person.

Thanks

i think you just answered your own question when you said :



ok, so there you admit that the experience affected you in some way, otherwise there would be nothing to reclaim.

sexuality is not just about physical response [ie getting 'boners' and engagin in sexual activity and behavior] but rather is also about 'attraction' and desire/libido which are pre-conscious. awareness of sexuality is an ever evolving process throughout a persons entire lifetime [yes even when you are 100, so the trappist monks at gethsemane confess], and mistakenly people think of sexuality as a fixed state: in other words, i was born 'this way' and i will die 'this way'. sexuality is for most, mercurial and ever changing throughout life.

i gave no thought to 'the birds and the bees' before my brother sexually initiated me. that moment changed my life immutably. i did not 'discover' sexuality, it discovered me by being imposed on me prematurely.

yes, the statistics are that 1 in every 6 boys has been sexually assaulted/abused by the age of 16. so it's no wonder that you are finding this out. what is surprising [to me anyway] is that you are finding other males [assuming they are self-determined bonafide st8] who admit that they engaged in sex acts with males in the first place. we know they do, but most are not admitting it, who also don't identify as unabashedly bi or gay.

it's all about the culture of shame, and the need to project an image of power and masculinity. for many men, they feel enmasculated by the experience of abuse, and thus will not go about bragging to the world about it. the opposite is true however, while having sex with a female is seen as a conquest and a cause for bragging rights.

also, for my experience, the abuse was not as damaging as the system in which it took place, ie, the family culture that chose to suppress it, deny it, and avoid it, and likewise the cultural taboo against males having sex with males. that's what left the greater legacy of abuse: leaving me no recourse for recovery, expecting me to pretend that nothing happened and that it bore no ramifications.

you see, there is a reason why it just didn't 'bother you' until something happened recently that caused you to stumble upon this organization.

the effects of abuse are progressive; for some of us it took years to allow ourselves to admit we were defeated by the ball and chain of the past. we see it more and more, and more and more guys are coming here at middle age having found out there is really no escape of the ghosts of the past, and we all take comfort in being able to process, perhaps for the first time, these experiences and the damages we have carried for so many moments, years and decades.

we discover the bad news, as you pointed out, that we are not alone in this experience of sexual abuse and assault, but the good news is that we are also not alone in the recovery and reclaiming of our lives.

great topic.... never be afraid to ask questions here .... we may not like the answers we get when we do, but we learn to accept the kernel of truth that spawned them, and further we learn that for many questions there are no answers but rather more, deeper and better more significant questions that we could have imagined had we not asked them in the first place!

warm regards,

ron

i wanted to add that sexuality never evolves in isolation from the entire personality. it become part of the seamless fabric of our entire emotional, psychological existence; all these aspects become intertwined as we evolve and develop, and so thus, it is really not very useful to talk about sexuality outside the frame of the essential wholistic human person.

First, I applaud you for taking the difficult first steps.

I have trouble remembering what different terms mean. To me sexuality is the whole enchilada - your sexual orientation (ya wan't men or women?), your gender identity (are you a man or woman inside?), your sexual desires (are OK if they don't hurt you or anyone else and are not illegal, and all the rest. A CSA can have a really profound effect on the victims. It made me very confused about all of the above for a very long time. Who I was didn't change, but how I viewed myself and my comfort level with myself changed because of the CSA and due to my recovery effort. I still want women (my age), I know I'm supposed to be a man (didn't always), but I'm still confused about some of my desires. I've worked out the personally destructive ones, but there are still things I can't figure out.

I can tell you that because I was sexually abused, there are certain things I *do* want sexually. I was sexualized at a time in my life (3 - 5y/o) when it was too intense for me to handle. That caused a lot of "fallout" for me; some of which are the non-destructive desires. I don't judge myself for them. You really don't need to judge the desires *or* yourself. Only behaviors. And then only if they are harmful.

You have every right to want (and expect) a consenting, safe environment to explore your sexuality with whomever you choose.

Mike

**PS Ron beat me to posting. I type slow.

I admit that my CSA affected how I deal with my sexuality, but I'm troubled by the notion that it affected my core desires (whatever that means). My CSA and my education affected my ability to communicate about what happened to me and to communicate what my desires were. They made me feel ashamed about my sexuality.

Again, correct me if I misinterpret, but if someone perceives themselves as straight yet engages in consensual sex with men it seems that we are calling it different things in different situations. If that person is not a survivor, then we would say that person is in the closet about their sexuality. If that person is a survivor, then we begin to question if it's simply some compulsion related to their abuse. Even if it is, shouldn't the focus be on allowing someone to be comfortable with their own sexual decisions instead of treating their consensual sexual decisions as a compulsion? From what I've read, it seems that a lot of men on here feel that their desires to have sex with men are simply compulsions to be wished away. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but shouldn't the focus be on helping someone to be comfortable with their own decisions because that ability to decide was taken from them?

friend,

check out dr. joe kort's straightguise site

he specializes in answering question such as yours.

also good to know, that he takes personal questions here on our website. you can pose a question from this link, which he will answer in the forum.

you're not alone in your struggle with this issues!

warm regards,

ron

WannaBeActivist,

Try not to be ashamed of your sexuality (sexual orientation?) or who you are. It was hard for me personally not to be ashamed of everything about myself. Not only sexual things - I just thought I was a failure. NO ONE is a failure by just being. You have to do something to be "a failure" or "bad."

It sounds to me like you are beating yourself up over having or wanting to have sex with men. Look, I was part of the catholic church for 20 years. I left for other reasons which don't relate to this board, but I know that the catholic church has a "sex-negative" attitude. That sex is *only* for procreation. And even then, its "bad" if you enjoy it. That is patently false. Homosexuality (I believe) is something you are born with. Just like heterosexuality. So I think it is simple to define. To sort it out after a CSA, not so much. If you (a man) engage in consensual sex with only men, you are a homosexual. If you (a man) engage in consensual sex with women, you are a heterosexual. If you go with either, then you're a bi-sexual.

I hope I am hitting close to the spot you're looking for. If not, let me know. I've been wrong before.

Peace, Bro.

It's evident that Ron composes and post MUCH quicker than I do. That's OK, he has good advice.

saber, it's funny, but i just happened to be around more today than usual, and paying attention to this particular thread, since i know how difficult this topic is for people who seem disaffected by the idea of not fitting in to one end or other of a culturally contrived binary sexual identity system.

this is one of the hallmarks of the survivor dilemma and so many men relate to this topic on so many levels.

warm regards and accompanying smiles,

ron

Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel like being a survivor means that you automatically feel like your pegged into one box or another regarding your sexuality. If I desired to have sex with men, I would do it, but currently the thought makes me uncomfortable (again, I don't know if it was the abuse, my upbringing, something organic, or something environmental) and I'm attracted to women more than men. That being said, I wouldn't be against the idea if I was in a safe comfortable situation with someone I was attracted to, I just haven't had that yet, but it doesn't particularly bother me beyond feeling like I should be one way or another. However, I'll admit that you touched upon something of note to me. I do find myself feeling uncomfortable when I'm hit on by a guy, but again I don't know where that comes from.

The question I had was more of a clinical one I suppose, how does CSA or SA affect one's sexuality in general? Because that seems to be a huge question for almost all survivors. For me, I'm comfortable knowing that whether or not it did, it's my sexuality to do with as I please as long as it's between consenting, competent adults. That may simply be the end of it (indeed, that's the most important part), but I'm still curious.

Joe Kort's ideas seem to be inspired by a lot of the work of John Money which worries me because, from what I understand, John Money was largely discredited in his field after the David Reimer case, but I'm not positive. I'll discuss it with my counselor. However, that's what worries me when we begin to discuss the idea of homosexual imprinting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but same sex attraction tends to occur to all people, indeed in many cultures homosexual activity is seen as simply part of life and not requiring a "life change" to affirm that decision. However, when we begin to say that someone who identifies as straight is simply acting off of this imprinting, it seems to me that we are discrediting what the person desires.

I googled homosexual imprinting and most of the pages I found were from Joe Kort's websites, an article by the National Review, a gay-to-straight site, a philosopher's page from the U of Minnesota, and the wiki page (which I found on google) on imprinting mentions that there's no empirical evidence. I'm not going to say that I don't think imprinting exists, but what empirical evidence is there to support it?

I second the recommendation for Joe Kort's website on this issue.

My personal experience is the my csa thwarted my normal sexual development and filled it with shame, rage, fear, and an inability to engage in healthy intimacy.

These were also compounded in the family system I grew up in, full of shame, rage, fear, and lack of healthy intimacy (expressing feelings, loving touch, respect for boundaries, etc.)

Quoting Wannabe: "Even if it is, shouldn't the focus be on allowing someone to be comfortable with their own sexual decisions instead of treating their consensual sexual decisions as a compulsion?"

My take is that you SHOULD be comfortable with your sexual decisions-and this requires a great deal of self-honesty and healing to gain clarity about one's sexuality.

If someone's sexual decisions even resemble what could be seen as compulsion, there is work to be done in recovery.

My perspective is as a man who became progressively addicted to acting out sexually with other men in order to satisfy a host of unfulfilled needs (revenge, anger, approval, dominance, competence, you name it-it wasn't healthy, intimate, loving, caring or anything like that.)

In fact, I had to go thru a period of complete abstinence from any sexual behaviors while I tried to get an idea of who I really was, and to detox from my sex addiction. At that time, I was absolutely open to being identified as gay or bi. I justed wanted to know myself truthfully.

During that time with no sex, no porn, no masturbation, no romance, no fantasy, I got to know myself and my body and spirit on such an intimate, trusting level that very little can shake me today, 8 years later. The worse thing I still do is hide behind rationalizations and excuses in my life and cut off my feelings instead of facing them honestly.

I've been given the opportunity to walk thru death of family members, separation from my wife for a second time, and explosion of memories of csa after my brother died. And I am comfortable with my sexuality and intimacy at all levels.

I don't really care how people view themselves sexually (gay, bi, straight), as long as they aren't wrapped up in lies, abuse, and dysfunctional relationships-that hurts to see people lost in their own pain.

I agree with you that if it's something that's a compulsion then they should get treatment for it, but what makes a desire a compulsion? If you make someone feel ashamed or bad about what they want to do, human nature tends to cause them to continue pursuing it regardless. It becomes a cycle that's pretty harmful. But, does that mean the thing they wanted in the first place is bad?

I get all the discussion on self-honesty, but what does that even mean? How do you know if you're being honest with yourself?

If Joe Kort's methods have helped you, then that's great and I don't want to undo that, but I'm troubled that he's using ideas that aren't based on empirical research. If there is empirical research, then I would like to see it. So many people have been hurt when pseudoscience is passed off as real science and I don't know if what he's talking about is real science, i.e. based on solid evidence produced in peer-reviewed journals. I may be wrong, but I want to see evidence before I change my mind.