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#327809 - 04/09/10 03:32 AM Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse?
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Europe
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"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#327810 - 04/09/10 04:47 AM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: learning2remember]
Sans Logos Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
learning,

i thought it was an interesting spin, but am curious as to what about it that particularly causes you to characterize it as offensive?

regards,

ron

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#327829 - 04/09/10 10:00 AM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: Sans Logos]
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Europe
I think she is saying that if women had equal status in the Church, the abuse would not have occurred or it would have been handled more appropriately.

A subtle propagation of the myth, "Women don't abuse."

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#327833 - 04/09/10 10:32 AM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: learning2remember]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: learning2remember
I think she is saying that if women had equal status in the Church, the abuse would not have occurred or it would have been handled more appropriately.

A subtle propagation of the myth, "Women don't abuse."


Wow, good catch! I agree.

There may be other reasons to argue for equal status of women in an organization; but "because there would be less child abuse" surely can't be one of them.

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Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#327839 - 04/09/10 12:21 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: melliferal]
JustScott Offline
Greeter Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2586
Just talk to anyone who was abused by a female and get their opinion..... (Personally, as a victim of a female, I feel the writer of the article is naive. I'd say stupid too, but that would just be mean).

Such a statement is both ignorant and sexist. Flip that kind of statement around, suggesting something would be better if a man.... and there would be so much public outcry it would be crazy!


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#327842 - 04/09/10 12:42 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: JustScott]
Sans Logos Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
sorry guys i missed that one by a mile. when i read the article my mind immediately doted on the mythical female pope joan and i missed the obvious. true, the statements are incredibly insensitive.

man are we ever seeing the world differently than most, ie, as it really is?!

sometimes it is excruciatingly painful, being a survivor and realizing this stuff and how the world reinforces it. woe is us!

warm regards,

ron

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#327888 - 04/09/10 10:23 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: Sans Logos]
pufferfish Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/26/08
Posts: 6875
Loc: USA
I don't think so!! frown

When women do abuse they are more vicious than men who abuse! Is that true? It is not capable of proof.

Anyway, what would you call her? Not "Nope", that doesn't have any class. How about "Popess", or "Popette". No those wouldn't do either! Those names would be easily corrupted by the riffraff.

Allen


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#327949 - 04/10/10 01:40 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: pufferfish]
melliferal Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Just "Pope", I think. I imagine such a woman would be called "The Holy Mother" rather than "The Holy Father", though - which may cause some confusion, as Mary (to my knowledge) is already known as "The Holy Mother". Hmm, I don't know - it would be weird for a while I suppose.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#327951 - 04/10/10 01:52 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: melliferal]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
You have to remember her schtick is to be coy and cute while showing off her nimble mind with her articles. She is bright but she plays her writing for the laugh more than the stern. I am not defending her I sent her an email chastising her.

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As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#327966 - 04/10/10 04:46 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: kidneythis]
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Europe
I can tell you are not defending her. I agree that part of the problem is the genre. Just as comedians should be funny, columnists need to be snappy, catchy, and provocative.

But that also means that they need to be careful what they suggest, unless they are willing to back it up or at least own up to what they are suggesting.

Did she respond to your e-mail?

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#327970 - 04/10/10 06:25 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: learning2remember]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
L2R no she didn't. the NYT has a screening process where someone looks at the email which is in a form not a true email, and I suspect the intended recipient rarely sees what is sent them. If it passes muster it is sent onward.
That is what I understand to be the process.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#328130 - 04/12/10 07:27 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: learning2remember]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I tend to disagree with you that more women in power in the Catholic Church wouldn't change things. Yes women abuse, that is not in doubt, but I think the greater issue is that an all male power structure like the one that exists in the church lends to other voices being ignored, namely those of women and children, and we know what being ignored or marginalized leads to with respect to the most vulnerable. One other thing to think about is why are all the victims in these recuring sex offences boys? Very rarely do you hear about a priest sexually abusing a girl. Again, I think part of this comes down to an all male power hierarchy, starting with the Pope right down to alter boys. If things were more equal with respect to the role of men and women in the church the outcome might be different with concern to respect for children as a whole.

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#328169 - 04/13/10 06:41 AM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: jls]
learning2remember Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 263
Loc: Europe
I think a Roman Catholic Church that treated men and women equally would be a different church, and could very well be one which abuse was dealt with more appropriately.

I strongly resist any suggestion, though, that the greater involvement of women would in and of itself be a solution or even part of the solution.

Yes, there are accounts of girls being molested by priests, and of nuns abusing both boys and girls.

Gender plays a role in abuse, but abuse is not about gender just as it is not acually about sex. It is about power, which is, of course, related to hierarchy, whether it is a male hiearchy, a female hierarchy or in integrated one.

_________________________
"This is not my shame, this is their shame." Mona Eltahawy

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#328179 - 04/13/10 07:57 AM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: learning2remember]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Divide and conquer right? Sex roles automatically gets the populace divided and looking away from the pulpit.
Still the sanctity of womanhood is a load of crap.

Anyway CBS news added a caveat to the churches new edict, "if"
That is "report all abuse IF it is legallly required". I'm sorry but who decides if? Its another loophole if you ask me.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#328247 - 04/13/10 05:40 PM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: kidneythis]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
I don't beleive in the sanctity of womanhood either. However, I think L2R is right when he said this is a matter of equality and that sex roles or gender shouldn't matter when compared to the church's hierarchy. It is an ancient institution that has roots in obtaining and maintaining power dating back to the Roman empire, often at the expense of women and children, or anyone else doomed to be a slave, so why are we surprised now? I would be if the church made an effort to change along the way but in so many hundreds of years there's been very little.

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#328797 - 04/18/10 09:59 AM Re: Woman Pope would mean Less Abuse? [Re: learning2remember]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
This seems the tight place to put this.

I just remembered that I had written a letter to mother superior at my aunts convent. This is the aunt who abused my right hand because I wouldn't reject my father and wanted to be like him. She also had a hand in other stuff.
Anyway the response I got? We'll pray for you. !!!
I didn't realy expect that they would try to get her to confess to what she did to me on her own and in cahoots with her mother and other sisters, they hated my mother for marrying Italian, but a dismissal like that still struck home as an insult.

I thought that would fit here as an example of roman catholic womanhood. I've not known many nice nuns. There were a couple at the catholic school I went to for a couple years when I got sent home to my family who would polay in the snow with us then bring us into the convent to have hot chocolate. That only happened twice before some other nun stopped it.

I don't think a nope would be any different, they all have twisted minds thinking of themselves as the saviors of mankind.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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