no argument that i see.

i understand we each have different views about "the end," so we embrace these differences in the name of diversity. i believe in love. and maybe that is the same as saying i believe in god. i don't know.

i just know that love is real, it is something that i know exists. it existed inside of me before the rape. it came back a decade later, and it is the most powerful emotion and bond that humans can feel for each other. what a gift! if there is a god, indeed he gave us that gift! so we need to use it -- or we disappoint god.

given what you wrote, i should clarify my definition of "meaningless." in my view, helping others or doing one's job, living to the best of our ability - may not be meaningless as such. my definition in this context is more of an ultimate achievement obtained while maintaining those other 'meaningful' tasks day-to-day. i guess i consider those tasks "a given" while we are alive, these are carried out without second thought or any effort.

fascinating to me though that you wrote "...I have never been in love and probably never will be..."

do not take this the wrong way or personally please, but how the hell can anyone say "probably never will be?"

is this society so hurt by past emotions; broken hearts; being gay; broken trust; our parents; that we are directed to practice safety as the ultimate happiness and key to success? just being "good enough" buddies, or good enough husbands/wives is the only way in which no one gets hurt?

i'm a risk taker - in matters of the heart (obviously not in career! lol.) but i am this way due to the recovery process. sounds simple, but that is an extremely powerful conclusion. the ability was taken from me, and i learned how to find it again.

i relearned how to love. i relearned how to love myself... i learned how to share that love, by giving it without condition (extremely difficult). its just unfortunate that both those times, way past, that the men in those two cases feared love.

i realize many men are not there yet. here. and off here. have dated far too many men in my life who could not even feel, outside of sex, and thus could never imagine themselves in love. naturally, they were not good matches for me - even back in the '80s when i was just starting therapy.

and maybe what you wrote -- signals that more men have adopted the same approach. they will never find love either, because they do not think they will - so why bother taking the risk, why bother trying?

in the meantime, i'm here with open arms! ha, what irony!


teach me please, someone. is it that guys don't care to work towards finding a relationship? is the risk of being a broken man so great in our day, so intense an emotion, that only a few can handle it?

no risk on cragislist, right? guys want to see what is out there.... because that is "good enough" and they get touched once and awhile in return during their busy day. why would they need more than that if they believe "i could never fall in love."?

Hey, Jeff.

"do not take this the wrong way or personally please, but how the hell can anyone say "probably never will be?" "

Actually, I do take that personally, but don't worry, I'm not taking it the wrong way. You haven't offended me at all; it's VERY hard to offend me, buddy.

Now it's MY turn to clarify what I wrote (seems we're doing a great job of communicating here, aren't we? ) When I said I probably never will be in love, I meant it. But that only applies to me, because I was abused and lost my trust. The majority of men out there have not been abused (1 out of 6 boys are abused - the current statistic, as far as I know), so their problems with love and intimacy are probably not the same as my own.

So I think you still have a good chance of finding someone. And as you are a risk-taker, I'm going to add that it's probably just a matter of time before you do.

Good luck, Jeff. I hope I helped you in some small way.

Your friend,

Bobcat

bobcat, not quite sure what to say. i hear where you are coming from, i think, based upon our shared abuse experience. i would hope that one day your trust can be restored -- as it was for me and others.

somewhat of a passing thought - but it seems to me that matters of heart for men don't just affect those of us with abuse issues. after all... where is "love education" for men? instead, we get mechanical sex education. pointless and whacked, especially for gay men who do not exist in first place. lol.

when are we ever told that we WILL suffer from a broken heart just because shit happens? are we taught this from our dads? from the public education system? when are males ever taught to embrace their emotions outside of football? when are men told - dude, its cool to cry at a movie!

why do men spend so much time working on controlling their emotions? because we are indirectly all victims of a macho society that equates emotion with the weaker sex. in my view, at least, that is my assessment and i believe we are the weaker sex as a result. women have the strength because they don't have to hold back!

straight and non-abused heart break also sends a guy into a very lonely and alone place. i think he does make the decision to protect himself by saying 'i'll never fall in love again.' shutting off is as safe for them as it was for us.

so, while i don't really buy into virtual emotions of sorts - lol -- i do send you a "big fat long hug."

and i'd whisper into your ear: "i believe in you. and i firmly believe that you will trust once again."

thanks for the b'day wish btw.

Jeff, buddy,

I agree with you completely here. You raise a lot of good points. I especially like the "love education". If we can't pass that on to the schools, how about turning it into a new television show?

And I think you're right that males suffer more because we can't be close and share our emotions with each other. I've heard many guys tell the old joke that their support group has six members - a six-pack of beer. And some women might also be responsible for this rift, but I think what is really tragic is that it is other MEN causing men to be distant from each other! Imagine this scenario for a moment: You hugging another man in front of a group of women. NOW imagine you hugging another man in front of a group of men. Which one is more frightening?

However, I think things are slowly starting to change. And all of us, sharing and being close to each other here at MS - we are in the front line of a battle to show men that it IS okay to show vulnerability, emotions, and love (not just sex) for others. We're pioneers. (Hmm... You'd almost think there was an idea for a movie or book in there somewhere.)

Anyway, I agree with you, Jeff. Happy birthday again, buddy.

Your friend,

Bobcat

I only read your post before posting this.
I did that to a woman once. We met online etc... and when it came time to meet I panicked and left before she arrived. It was shallowness on my part that made me panic. I apologized on the phone to her. She was normal enough to chew me out for my rudeness and that was it for her she moved on and I never heard from her again.
At that point in time I had been burned by a half dozen women who all turned out to be over 200lbs. I am not attracted to that kind of woman in a sexual way. I feel a maternal sort of attraction, no sex. anyway I guess I'm justifying.

Your anger, I do think it's related to the abuse. There is no apparent contemporary reason that connects it but the connection is there in my opinion. I have anger like that and I'm not prone to mental illness or irrationality. It is a combination of a level of aphasia inflicted by the torture and unresolved feelings. I'm 48 so I have all that time being frustrated in my communications, hell I just had a coniption because I couldn't think of the word contemporary, and having all that unresolved emotion hidden behind the ECT created barrier in my mind so I am either already angry when I rise or it comes up so easily it might as well be there all the time. I think I'm getting better and that is due to being able to talk here and openly process things. So I think the emotional volitility will subside as you begin to feel more in control as emotions germain to the situation come up and irrational things like fear or anger don't. Oh yea fear also makes me angry.

this circles us right back to the thread you started from a point i made on the 'net approach to life.

i'm glad you can share and feel close to other men here / online. so, do i not have the ability, or skill or will -- maybe all? how do i find that answer?

look at the online dating scene: extreme example, but works fairly well to use your movie>