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#322761 - 02/20/10 03:39 PM Reminder that same age abuse is possible
onlyakid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
I was watching the coverage of Senator Evan Bayh's announcement that he will not run for re-election in the fall and I noticed something. At his press conference he brought out his wife and two sons. At first I thought they were atleast 2-3 years apart but it turns out that they are twins. Both are 14 but one looks very much younger and I can see how it would be possible for the bigger one to abuse the smaller one and they are the same age (ok, technically one was born before the other). Just a reminder to all of you who had abusers that were close in age to you.

Here's a snapshot of the press conference.





_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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#322774 - 02/20/10 05:38 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: onlyakid]
WalkingSouth Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 16264
Abuse happens when there is an imbalance of power and the more powerful person exercised that power in an abusive way over another. I personally know of at least one case that took place in a high school setting where the abuser was younger than the abused by a couple of years. It's the negative exercise of power, one person over another, that constitutes abuse.

_________________________
“Life’s journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting ‘Holy ____…! What a ride!’” ~Hunter S. Thompson

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#322789 - 02/20/10 09:24 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: WalkingSouth]
ericc Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1960
I've struggled with this. I can't say for sure what the power differential was between the peer and I. He did use unrelenting pressure to break me down. I didn't know how to stand up for myself at the time. I was pretty easy to kick around. I just can't except what happened as innocent experimentation. I didn't want to cross that line and all internal messages I was getting were telling me just that. I wanted him to stop pressuring me and drop the subject. I tried to make that happen but he kept going. I eventually gave in.

Eric


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#322797 - 02/20/10 10:28 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: ericc]
TheBobcatAgain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 506
Loc: AZ, U.S.A.
I hope this helps.

My therapist calls it "child-on-child" abuse, meaning the abuser can be the same age or even younger. She says there are three conditions that differentiate ABUSE from EXPERIMENTATION. These are:

1) Power, or illusion of power - The abuser need not physically force the victim into sexual abuse. Force can also be applied by coercion, manipulation, threats made against the victim, made against the victim's family, or even made against the abuser himself/herself if the abuser is someone the victim loves. In my own case, my abuser threatened to end his friendship with me, and I thought that would be the worst of my choices, at the time.

2) Improper sexual maturity on the part of the abuser - If the abuser is showing signs of sexual knowledge and experience unequal to his developmental age, then he has an advantage over victims who are sexually immature due to THEIR developmental age, thus making it easier for the abuser to abuse. (Probably also means the abuser was abused himself/herself.)

3) Prior sexual abuse history - If the abuser knows that the victim has been sexually abused before and takes advantage of that fact by abusing the victim even more, it is considered abuse.

My therapist told me that if any ONE of the three conditions apply to you, then it IS abuse. She said that many people in the field of psychology will tell you the same, regardless of whether laws do or not.

I'm actually going to go one step further. One of the things that started making me think I was abused - even before I went to a therapist - were my symptoms. I was manifesting MANY of the same symptoms as someone who had been abused. Since I thought I had been a willing participant, this started to change my mind into thinking that maybe I HAD been abused after all.

I hope this helps anyone who is uncertain of whether or not they were abused as a child.

Bobcat

_________________________
You don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

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#322800 - 02/20/10 11:34 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
Charlie24 Offline


Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 562
Bobcat this is very enlightening to learn this from you and your therapist.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom. Great to hear and get re-enforcements from it that I too was abused. It helps not knowing for the longest time made life so hard. But as they say knowledge is power. With that power then you can make a change.

Great topic and discussion. Very enlightening.

Charlie.


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#322817 - 02/21/10 05:12 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: Charlie24]
TheBobcatAgain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 506
Loc: AZ, U.S.A.
Thank you, Charlie. Glad to be of help.

Your friend,

Bobcat

_________________________
You don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

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#322822 - 02/21/10 05:49 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1929
Loc: durham, north england
In my case it was simple and literal wieght of numbers. What pisses me off is that while it's quite accepted that a gang of boys can s/xually taunt another, the idea that 3-6 teenaged girls can effectively and almost literally gang rape a boy their own age isn't knownw about at all, sinse teenaged girls are held up to be the most valuable, weakest, and most deserving of sympathy, ---- what, our litle princess behave like that? ---- impossible!

Condition 2 as regards lack of knolidge also applies to me. I had all the theory, but none of the practice. in fact, going on my experience, knolidge was actually unhelpful, sinse all my parents' careful explanations to me at the age of ten, ---- including explaining all the words and what they meant did not but made me think s/x was normal biology, and not worth the stupid amounts of ridiculous humour, taunts and obsession which everyone else at school seemed to spend on it. That lost created a huge distance betwene myself and others, ---- in fact I wonder if that isolation was what started it, and if that's now where my phobia about s/x comes from.


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#322842 - 02/21/10 11:51 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: dark empathy]
ericc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1960
Luke, I hate to break the stereotype you think exists but teenage girls can at times be some of the most cruel and viscous around. When I was in middle school the girls were catty as heck. And the worse part is that the guys would follow suit to win their admiration. Don't worry, there are plenty of us who get that girls that age are not always nice. I'm not saying they are all like this but I remember darn clear how it was. Maybe I'm a little bitter myself because it was girls of this age that really made my life hell when I moved into the new neighborhood which preceded the peer situation.

And by the way, thanks for the thread. I really need to read this sort of thing once in a while to remind myself I didn't deserve or nor do I own responsibility for what happened.


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#322852 - 02/21/10 12:23 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: ericc]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1929
Loc: durham, north england
Sorry Eric. You are right, I suppose I'm just fealing very abandoned and undeserving of sympathy at the moment.


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#322865 - 02/21/10 02:30 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
jls Offline


Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 1142
Thank you for your excellent post. Regarding points two and three, I can personally relate to this. Concerning item number 2, there were some occasions when I was 10 and 11 where I was introduced to non-age appropriate sexual activites by both a girl and another boy, each of whom were a couple of years older. When I say non-age appropriate the activities specifically were intercourse and oral sex, niether of which I was knowledgeable of or comfortable with. Concerning point number 3, I have a question for you. You say "If the abuser knows that the victim has been sexually abused before and takes advantage of that fact by abusing the victim even more, it is considered abuse." What if it were the other way around, as in the abuser has been sexually abused before and is acting this out on another child? With concern to the girl having sex with me when I was 10 or so, in retrospect I'm sure she had an abuse history prior to meeting me, given her advanced sexual knowledge as a child. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. JS

_________________________
Love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world.


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#322875 - 02/21/10 04:56 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: jls]
Dusty Boy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/15/08
Posts: 280
Loc: Australia
Yes I can say from experience that same age abuse happens with that exact imbalance. When I was 9 the class bully was the tallest kid in the class and he was solid, so when he told me to sit on the pavement in front of him and put my hand up his shorts and he would do the same I complied out of fear. It was a public place and I didn't like him but I was too scared not to do what he wanted.

Originally Posted By: jls
Concerning point number 3, I have a question for you. What if it were the other way around, as in the abuser has been sexually abused before and is acting this out on another child? With concern to the girl having sex with me when I was 10 or so, in retrospect I'm sure she had an abuse history prior to meeting me, given her advanced sexual knowledge as a child. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. JS


If the person was older or stronger that is abuse, if you were forced or coerced to do sexual things against your wishes that is abuse, regardless of the abusers history.

Dusty


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#322929 - 02/22/10 04:57 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: jls]
TheBobcatAgain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 506
Loc: AZ, U.S.A.
jls,

Thank you for your response. I'm sorry I didn't see it earlier, but there are a lot of daily posts, and somehow I missed it.

In regard to your question to me of is it abuse if the abuser has been sexually abused before and is acting this out on another child, I would say that falls into the second category - improper and advanced sexual knowledge/experience on the part of the abuser.

I would like to share this with everyone here at MS:

I would like to address a concern with these conditions that a few people here have discussed with me. Some children who have been abused have tried to act out their sexual abuse with another child. This has made a few people uneasy because they fear that they have been abusers as well.

I will throw in my own example - I tried to abuse 2 other kids after my sexual abuse, but was unsuccessful. However, I don't consider this to be my fault, because I did not understand at the time that it was wrong. I am also uncertain whether my abuser knew that what he did to me was wrong. I have a feeling he had probably been abused prior to his abusing me.

So...where does the blame lie? To me, this gray area is not unlike a car collision at an intersection - the car behind me slams into me, forcing me to slam into the next car, forcing that car to slam into the one in front of him, etc. Though I am probably guilty for stopping too close to the car in front of me, I am not the reason the collision happened in the first place.

So, if you were abused as a child, and then you innocently tried to abuse another child, does that make you an abuser? I'm not sure. According to the conditions I stated earlier, yes, you are an abuser, but if it was done out of innocence, then how can it be your fault? My therapist told me that I was probably almost an abuser - would have been if my efforts had succeeded - but that it wouldn't have been my fault, and probably not even my abuser's fault, either. The fault probably goes way back to whomever started it willfully and maliciously.

If anyone has thoughts on this or a definitive answer, I would appreciate any input.

Bobcat

P.S. - I would like to thank Jason for starting this thread.

_________________________
You don't have to be perfect to be wonderful.

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#322986 - 02/22/10 02:44 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
Logan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1205
Loc: NY
This is Huge for me, Jason, thanks for sharing.

Even though my fraternal twin brother in my age he was so much stronger than me-always has been-he now weighs about 220 lbs and you have seen me, I only way abot 145 lbs.

He used to beat me up and torture (yes, thats right torture) me for years and i thought that nobody( my mom obviously did not) would believe me because we are the same age!


Logan

_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
WOR Alumnus Hope Springs 2009
"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
-Blade Runner

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#323788 - 03/02/10 12:57 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: Logan]
saphsaph Offline


Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 20
Loc: MA, USA
Part of my csa was older/same age boys in sex rings doing things to me either because adults told them to, or because that was also part of their life.

Honestly, I see at as a form of second-hand abuse. A child, to me, does things (like throwing rocks at an animal, or killing an insect) that seem to cruel to us but to them is "innocent". We tend to equate innocence with benevolence, but it's not always the case.

A lot of same-age abusers were abused themselves, they were taught to do something. It's like when an older kid comes and shows you what he learned in class. Does that make what the abuse did to you any smaller? No. But to me it also doesn't mean the child should live with the same sort of guilt as an adult. For example, we say that even if after the abuse happened we searched for more it's not our fault because we were children and they were adults. Then how can we say that other children then do have the burden of guilt?

In my mind we can't have it both ways. Either I'm guilty for "seducing" my uncle and his friends, or kids are guilt-free. So I had no problem forgiving them. The real abuser was the adult who did something in my mind, or the adult who let it happen by not supervising.

However, this sort of "innocence" only lasts for me while the child is "influence able", meaning until about 13-14. Older than that and they ARE capable of critical thinking and reassessment.

So in conclusion I think when a person is abused by a "Child", the victim is abused, and a victim, but the child who did the abusing is not an abuser in the sense of a perpetrator. I think it's because a lot of people connect being abused to having an abuser. You can be abused and psychologically hurt without a need for it have an abuser/you can have an injustice done to you without there being unjust person.

I also think a lot of us just need our perps to feel sorry for what they did. There IS a difference for example between a same-age perp who says, "I'm sorry you had to go through all that you did for what I did" (While still understanding that they did it out of innocence and are therefore not really "guilty") and one that says, "Oh well, I was a kid anyway, we all did stupid things, just move on from it".


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#323901 - 03/03/10 06:20 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: saphsaph]
ericc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1960
In my case, although I can't remember how old we were, the peer for sure was not older than 14 and I was probably 14 by the time as well. He very well may have been abused himself. He certainly believed in his heart all the pressure tactics he was pushing on me. Either that or he was very manipulative, but for some reason I think he might have really believed most if not all he was saying. I think there is a good chance he was acting out some bad stuff whatever it was. And if that were the case I could hardly hold the perp moniker on him given his age. Regardless, my pain is still very valid though I don't think anyone would question that here. I think what is said above really fits, especially as I am working out how to make contact with the person to maybe get some questions answered and get a little closure on that part of things:

Quote:
I also think a lot of us just need our perps to feel sorry for what they did. There IS a difference for example between a same-age perp who says, "I'm sorry you had to go through all that you did for what I did" (While still understanding that they did it out of innocence and are therefore not really "guilty") and one that says, "Oh well, I was a kid anyway, we all did stupid things, just move on from it".



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#323906 - 03/03/10 07:18 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: saphsaph]
earlybird Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1007
Loc: WA USA
saphsaph,

Gave me a lot to think about in this post. Thanks for the insight, Not sure quite what to think but a asure you I'll ponder on it. Thank you again for stating this so well.

_________________________
Balanced (My goal)

There is symmetry
In self-reflection
Life exemplified
Grace personified

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#347441 - 12/08/10 02:08 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
mh6893 Offline


Registered: 12/08/10
Posts: 35
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Bobcat -

This is my first ever visit to this site and forum, which I was led to but which I was not sure would apply to me, as I thought my experiences was from 'experimentation' and not 'abuse'. Thanks very much for this de>
_________________________
Regards -

Jack


My profile photo is me around the time of my experience.


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#347442 - 12/08/10 04:21 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: mh6893]
diamondheart Offline
Member

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 157
Loc: Michigan
I know this was first posted about a year ago, but this topic has really triggered me. I am feeling anxious about responding to this thread but I feel that I must voice my experiences and feelings...

Abuse is abuse, plain and simple, regardless of the age... My abuser was only a year older than me but that didn't make it any less painful for me! I think in a way the fact that he was only a year older, only made it more difficult for me because then it was easy for others to say "oh, that wasn't abuse. that was two kids exploring"! Just another way for others to deny my pain...

I use to hate my cousin for what he did to me. He didn't ask, he just took... I didn't know even know what sex was... It was not mutual or wanted and that is the key.

I have been torn with this idea that my abuser was also a child when he molested me. I know he was molested by my other cousin and I can be sympathetic for what he went through but in the end even as a child he made a choice... Many kids are molested and do not repeat the cycle. I didn't but he did... I understand that being molested can alter your sexuality but even with me being molested I knew it was wrong to do it to someone else.

So why could I at the age of 12 know it was wrong what he did to me, and him at the age of 13 not know it was wrong?

I can forgive his child but I can't forgive the adult who he's become... The adult who denied it ever happened and shrugged it off on me.

So regardless if you were abused by another child, it is still wrong. Even a child is held accountable when they do something wrong. If they steal or physically hurt someone else, they can be arrested and taken to jail. So why doesn't the same apply to sexual abuse?

Maybe the punishment shouldn't be the same as for an adult perp but the pain that is done to the vicitim, is still the same! and by others trying to lesson the guilt of the abuser because they were a child, only belittles the vicitim and his/her pain...

_________________________
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#347443 - 12/08/10 04:49 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
CheerfulJohn Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/22/10
Posts: 141
Loc: England (at the moment)
Thanks for that clarity,

CJ

_________________________
Wolves will live with lambs. Leopards will lie down with goats. Calves, young lions, and year-old lambs will be together, and little children will lead them.

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#347456 - 12/08/10 09:20 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: onlyakid]
1227ms Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/01/10
Posts: 98
Loc: PA
to onlyakid,
This post is amazingly timely for me. I have been working with my T for a few weeks after wrestling inside for years. I mostly remember my adult abuser, but had completely repressed the memories of my peer abuser until last night when things came back in a flood. I struggled with all of the was that abuse feelings and thoughts. I got online today and found your post. He was the neighbor hood bully. My age. He abused me. Wow what a relief to say that!!!
It wasn't something I did wrong! I wasn't bad! I wasn't weak and deserving! I was abused! Thanks! Thanks! Thanks!

_________________________
“Everything becomes a little different as soon as it is spoken out loud.”
Hermann Hesse

Hope Springs alumnus 2011

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#347467 - 12/08/10 11:12 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: mh6893]
Avery46 Offline


Registered: 09/23/10
Posts: 1243
Loc: USA
JH,

Welcome to MS. You will find great support here.

I have gotten to KNOW how same age assault happens. The secrets are devastating BUT possible to recover from. I learned experimentation does happen and is ok. BUT,when one gets overly touchy either physically or verbally then a boundary is crossed.

Peace,
Donnie

_________________________
aka DJsport

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#348274 - 12/16/10 01:49 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: Avery46]
ericc Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 01/04/08
Posts: 1960
I haven't been posting as much here lately, but trying to catch up on some stuff today. This thread is very relevant to me, which of course is why I already posted a few times earlier in the year. That certainly is one of the problems of same-age abuse, people just wanting to discount it as experimentation. But I think the effects speak for themselves. It does happen.

It didn't register to me to search the term "child on child abuse" as Bobcat used, but looks like there is quite a bit that comes up:
google search



Edited by ericc (12/16/10 01:50 AM)

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#348281 - 12/16/10 02:23 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: ericc]
goodbyehorses Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 26
Loc: Northern California
Thank you so much for the insight in this thread.

I have been wrestling with this issue since I started examining my csa. I was stuck minimizing one situation as "experimentation", yet the act left lasting scars on my soul. I was 7 yrs old at the time, the abuser was 8. How could I label a small child as an abuser? But he definitely fell into categories 1&2. I am not blaming him for that. A year or so later, I acted out on a child who was one year older than me. I had no problem accepting myself as an abuser in that. I fell into category 2. I am not blaming myself either.

As was told to me from a fellow MS, children act on what they are taught. I am learning to accept that by forgiving myself and my young abuser.


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#348293 - 12/16/10 08:53 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
Overcomer Offline


Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 41
Loc: Sumter, SC
Bobcat,
Thanks for this break down. Like you, I thought I was a willing participant until one day reading about the signs of sexual abuse and realizing that I fit much of the profile. My abuser was only a year and a half older, but I'm now able to call what happened to me abuse. Thanks for sharing this insight from your therapist and your own life!


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#348361 - 12/17/10 09:37 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: Overcomer]
TheBobcatAgain Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 506
Loc: AZ, U.S.A.
To my brothers who are thanking me in this thread,

You are VERY welcome! I hope this information of "Child-On-Child" abuse comes as a relief and helps you as much as it helped me.

Thinking that I had been a willing participant in my abuse was, very literally, killing me - I had suicidal thoughts since my early teen years. But learning that what happened to me was ABUSE, that it was IN NO WAY my fault...allowed me to shed a lot of shame and breathe a great big sigh of relief - relief, knowing that many of my mistakes and problems in life weren't because I was a perpetual screwup but were, in fact, caused by something that wasn't my fault AT ALL - and that is a great comfort, knowing that I am NOT a perpetual screwup. I'm actually learning that I'm quite a good guy, in fact. smile

Do me a favor, my brothers - if the laws in your area don't agree with my therapist's EXPERT opinion of "Child-On-Child" abuse, don't despair, okay? Laws are being changed all the time. Do a little research on your own - I find my local library to be a good source of inexpensive but valuable literature - and be patient; someday, the world will recognize our pioneering efforts of defining male victimization and begin providing resources for us and interventions for children.

I'm truly sorry that you have been abused, my brothers...but thank you for participating in this site and helping us in our struggle.

You are not only survivors now...you are heroes leading the way in a noble cause.

Bless you, my brothers, one and all. smile

Your loving brother, as always,

Bobcat


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#348364 - 12/17/10 09:48 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: TheBobcatAgain]
michael Joseph Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 2719
Loc: Virginia
yeah bobcat (catmando)

and college libraries may have better selection

not sure but seems I found a lot of books there

Bless you

Your loving brother,

Michael joseph

_________________________
Standing together is so much better than hiding in the dark.
***I am a three time WoR Retreat Alumni***
The Round Table, Men's CSA Group, Monday 7:30pm CST, MaleSurvivor Chat

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#348571 - 12/20/10 06:40 AM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: michael Joseph]
dark empathy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1929
Loc: durham, north england
I sometimes stil feel sick when I think how ashamed and responsable I was. in fact during violence, and abuse I was frequently called a dirty bastard myself because my body reacted, even when my mind was toally gnum, even when I was having my face spat in.

Tis is why this topic is extremely impotant to me too.

Same age abuse, even violent and insulting gang wrape, is quite possible.


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#349861 - 01/05/11 07:41 PM Re: Reminder that same age abuse is possible [Re: dark empathy]
Magellan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 1390
Loc: California
Thank you so much for this topic and thread. I spent 30 years of my life dismissing the "exploration" and "play" that my cousin and I did with each other as children. He is 5 years older, and he initiated me with all that. lasted for a few years.

I dismissed it handily. This topic explains a lot of my story and confusion.

Thanks again.

D



Edited by tdillon (01/18/11 05:54 PM)
_________________________
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Loving Kindness Meditation will dramatically improve your spirits; give it a try for just 3 days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz7cpV7ERsM

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