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#322169 - 02/15/10 10:45 AM Re: 12 year-old boy blows away abusive stepfather [Re: catfish86]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
Mel,
I made no assumtions that I declared or presented. No one made murder OK except you in your imagination projecting that upon me as you did with the boy and imposing guilt on him.

You assumed that he shot his sister intentionally and declared so with sarcasm. You assumed the step father hadn't done anything merriting the reaction from the boy with sarcasm as well.
You did not hold back and wait for any evidence. I simply posited to you some possible explanation for things you seem to think there is only one explanation for. Where is your compassion for the boy and belief in his report of abuse? You don't need details his granny clearly is someone who still has a sense of propriety and is shielding the boy from bullying and other abuses by not disclosing full detail.

You don't seem to understand that this boy is a boy. You probably never held a gun or you'd realize its heavy for a boy to wield one and that would explain the shot in his sisters leg, as I previously mentioned the gun may have gone off as he lifted it. Secondly a boy of that age wouldn't be able to properly understand that he was killing the man. And probably didn't expect to kill him anyway. That is why laws treat children differently.
I did not see anything about his being charged with attempting to murder his mother.
And this is the most omportant part of this tragedy which doesn't seem top be sinking in with you;
The granmother reporting the abuse, thats good enough for me and most any child protective agency and they seem to have taken it seriously enough to come to her home to interview the kid as much as a year previous to this shooting.
I expect we'll learn that the caseworker decided the Granny had it in for the stepdad/daughter and was trying to gain custody instead of taking the kid seriously. I take this sort of thing personally because I have lived in agony for 40+ years because of this ignorant and bigotted view that I was just being a baby or wasn't seeing the truth when I reported my abuse as a child. There was always no matter how I tried to get help another "real" reason for my complaint in the eyes of the adult caseworker.

EDIT: I have to say some of the caseworker brushing aside of my story was intentional to coverup what happened but not all of them knew or were in on it and allowed themselves to be manipulated or just plain didn't care.,



Edited by kidneythis (02/15/10 12:26 PM)
_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#322218 - 02/15/10 05:25 PM Re: 12 year-old boy blows away abusive stepfather [Re: kidneythis]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: kidneythis

You assumed that he shot his sister intentionally and declared so with sarcasm. You assumed the step father hadn't done anything merriting the reaction from the boy with sarcasm as well.


No; I was using sarcasm, but the message went completely over your head. My problem isn't that "I think the kid shot his sister on purpose and his father was an angel and that's the only option I'm willing to consider." My problem is that you people don't even consider it as a possibility at all. Seriously, give me a break; you already think you know exactly what happened in this case. So does the OP, as is obvious by his title trumpeting the "blowing away" of an "abuser", and so do other people who are willing to believe at the drop of a hat that because this idiot liked to yell at his wife and kids a lot, he was likely molesting them too.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
You did not hold back and wait for any evidence. I simply posited to you some possible explanation for things you seem to think there is only one explanation for.


No; it's just precisely the opposite of what you're saying.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
Where is your compassion for the boy and belief in his report of abuse? You don't need details his granny clearly is someone who still has a sense of propriety and is shielding the boy from bullying and other abuses by not disclosing full detail.


One person is dead; another is maimed for life. We know those things happened. Until something else a little more solid comes up, my compassion will reside with them. The boy didn't get shot. I believe that many forms of acting out as a result of emotional abuse are excusable or at least understandable, but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Maybe each man draws his own line on that accord. Murder is on the wrong side of the line I choose to draw, and so is the kind of depraved indifference that leads to young children getting accidentally shot. If he, being 12 and "too young to understand" anything, was playing with the gun and shot these people accidentally, that'd be different.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
You don't seem to understand that this boy is a boy. You probably never held a gun or you'd realize its heavy for a boy to wield one and that would explain the shot in his sisters leg, as I previously mentioned the gun may have gone off as he lifted it. Secondly a boy of that age wouldn't be able to properly understand that he was killing the man. And probably didn't expect to kill him anyway. That is why laws treat children differently.


What does any of this change for the dead guy? Or the 5-year-old girl with a hole in her leg? We're talking about a 12-year-old, not a seven-year-old. When I was 12, I was pretty damned sure that guns can kill people and death is forever, and that's after my mind was twisted by my particular abuse. I'm not willing to blithely assume that any 12 year old is stupider than I was at the same age. And speaking of evidence, how on earth do you go about saying he "probably didn't expect to kill him"? Based on what?

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
I did not see anything about his being charged with attempting to murder his mother.


The link is still there; read the article again.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
And this is the most omportant part of this tragedy which doesn't seem top be sinking in with you;
The granmother reporting the abuse, thats good enough for me and most any child protective agency and they seem to have taken it seriously enough to come to her home to interview the kid as much as a year previous to this shooting.


They also never took the kid away from the family, or charged the parents with abuse after their investigation. Maybe they didn't find anything at all? Is that even possible?

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
I expect we'll learn that the caseworker decided the Granny had it in for the stepdad/daughter and was trying to gain custody instead of taking the kid seriously.


As I said, you and the other psychics here are perfectly free to Sylvia-Browne it up all day about what this guy was truly like or what was or was not covered up. Personally, I'm going to refrain from this bloodthirstiness. There is an argument to be made for believing kids when they come forward with stories of abuse; that goes without saying. But I think it reflects badly on us as a community to take that notion as such absolute gospel that after something terrible like this shooting happens, all it takes for us to completely disregard the suffering of the dead or nearly-dead is for the suspect to claim that at some point in his life he was abused. Suddenly that becomes the "real tragedy".

5-year-old girl with a hole in her leg? It was an accident. Whoops. *shrug* Maybe next time she'll know better than to get in the way when someone's trying to shoot her bigmouthed stepfather.

In this country, there's the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. If you want to presume this boy is innocent before you go calling him a murderer, you're supposed to make arguments like "maybe the gun accidentally went off (two times in a row)", or "maybe the boy didn't actually pull the trigger at all, but it was his mother (etc)". In my book, "the boy was abused and therefore justified in shooting these people" doesn't count as a presumption of innocence, it's an attempt to justify presumed guilt.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#322318 - 02/16/10 01:33 PM Re: 12 year-old boy blows away abusive stepfather [Re: melliferal]
kidneythis Offline


Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 1558
You are very angry. Apparently that we as a group have not given due to the dead man in your eyes.

No one has said or claimed any of the things you accuse us of. Apparently this is all because we are showing sympathy for and belief in the boy w/o mentioning the other victims here. This is a Male abuse forum.

The fact that CPS or whatever agency it is didn't do anything doesn't mean anything. We just had a 16 year old girl murdered by her parents here and CPS had been told for years that the child was abused and had shelved the most recent complaint from a grandmother because the child was deemed old enough to leave on her own.

Yes the girl was shot. Yes the man is dead. How does that mean I said it was OK? How does it mean the boy wasn't a boy as you think you weren't a boy then? I have news you were and no matter what you think you did not know the consequences of your actions.
I base the remark that the boy probably didn't mean to kill him on the fact that children of that age don't understand the consequences of their actions.
My posits show what a boy that age might have been thinking you are just plain bloody minded and have more than once declared him guilty of maliscious murder and attempted murder by inuendo. By your logic 12 years olds can consent to sex. Its the same sort of reasoning, thinking of the consequences.

I could go on engageing you but you are just not willing to listen. Each time I have answered your questions or given you a reasonably plausable explanation for them you come at me like I had said something completely different.

You have another agenda here. I suggest you look into what that agenda is instead of making false accusations about the rest of us on here.

_________________________
As Mark Twain once quipped, history may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

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#322326 - 02/16/10 02:36 PM Re: 12 year-old boy blows away abusive stepfather [Re: kidneythis]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: kidneythis
You are very angry. Apparently that we as a group have not given due to the dead man in your eyes.


Not angry so much as seriously put-off. I think it's reprehensible.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
No one has said or claimed any of the things you accuse us of. Apparently this is all because we are showing sympathy for and belief in the boy w/o mentioning the other victims here. This is a Male abuse forum.


I've been a member here for more than four years. Pretty sure I know what this forum is for. But if you want to be semantic about it - the dead guy is male, and being killed is pretty darn abusive. But, if you look closer you'll find that this is a male sexual abuse forum, and not even this kid's grandmother has alleged any sexual abuse.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
The fact that CPS or whatever agency it is didn't do anything doesn't mean anything.


It might not mean anything. Or, it might mean everything. My being abused doesn't make me an expert on abuse or how people-not-me are affected by abuse. Likewise, what the local CPS authorities in my city do has no bearing on what happens in any CPS agency anywhere else. Things just don't work that way.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
Yes the girl was shot. Yes the man is dead. How does that mean I said it was OK?


Well, we can settle that issue pretty easily. If it's true that the kid was being emotionally abused, do you, in fact, think it's okay for him to shoot his stepfather? Simple yes or no question.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
How does it mean the boy wasn't a boy as you think you weren't a boy then? I have news you were and no matter what you think you did not know the consequences of your actions.


You don't know my younger self well enough to be making such declarations; but never mind: if this kid did not understand that shooting somebody would kill that person, why on earth would he shoot that person? Obviously he must've intended something to happen once he pulled the trigger, or he wouldn't have bothered.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
I base the remark that the boy probably didn't mean to kill him on the fact that children of that age don't understand the consequences of their actions.


Again, if he didn't mean to kill the guy, what DID he mean to do? Say "surprise" and throw him a birthday party? If he wanted to kill, hurt, injure, or wanted anything else BAD to happen to the man as a result of shooting him, then he has at least enough understanding about the consequences of shooting somebody to know that you only do it to people you don't like. And since something bad did happen, if he's the one who pulled the trigger he is responsible to a point if "something bad" is what he wanted.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
My posits show what a boy that age might have been thinking you are just plain bloody minded and have more than once declared him guilty of maliscious murder and attempted murder by inuendo. By your logic 12 years olds can consent to sex. Its the same sort of reasoning, thinking of the consequences.


I can't even begin to count all the non sequiturs here. Unless you're alleging that somebody smoothtalked him into shooting his stepfather, or held a knife to his back and forced him to shoot his stepfather, or held his hand on the trigger and pulled it for him and then claimed that he did it himself, this situation isn't even on the same plane as a child's "consenting" to sex.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
I could go on engageing you but you are just not willing to listen. Each time I have answered your questions or given you a reasonably plausable explanation for them you come at me like I had said something completely different.


Join the club.

Originally Posted By: kidneythis
You have another agenda here. I suggest you look into what that agenda is instead of making false accusations about the rest of us on here.


Oh reeeally? And what "agenda" would that be?

And if you'd clarify, what accusations? Are you saying you DON'T think the kid is innocent even if he did pull the trigger? Are you saying you DON'T think this guy was abusing the kid? Did you NOT make those decisions almost automatically, the moment you read the article? Because those are the only things I'm "accusing" anybody of.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

Oprah's resources for male survivors

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#322669 - 02/19/10 06:40 PM Re: 12 year-old boy blows away abusive stepfather [Re: melliferal]
Logan Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 1241
Loc: NY
Wow Mark! I really Like what you said!


I have to go now, but will add to this later

Thanks again for sticking up for us underdogs

Logan

_________________________
"Terrible thing to live in Fear"-Shawshank Redemption
WOR Alumnus Hope Springs 2009
"Quite a thing to live in fear, this is what is means to be a slave"
-Blade Runner

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#322796 - 02/20/10 10:11 PM Re: 12 year-old boy blows away abusive stepfather [Re: Logan]
onlyakid Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/31/04
Posts: 1552
Loc: New Jersey
Mel,
I think its a very good likelyhood that this boy was emotionally abused. You have the grandmother, the neighbor, a friend of Jacen's saying that he told him his stepdad was abusive. You also have 2 incidences of domestic violence where the police was called. Both charges were dropped but according to one of the police reports after initally denying that he hit his wife, he admitted to it but claimed that it wasn't intentional.

You also have claims of physical abuse and a threat that the stepdad wanted to knock Jacen's teeth out which was heard by the same neighbor who saw him emotionally abuse his stepson.

The repeated incidences of nothing being done to stop the stepfather (the dropped charges of domestic violence, the lack of DHS doing anything after they conducted an investigation), if the physical abuse started to escalate the boy may have felt like there was nothing left for him to do then to kill his father.

Yes it could also be true that you have the case of a mean, mentally disturbed 12 year old who killed his father but all these things that are coming out make me tend to believe that it is not the case.

If the beatings esclated and he felt that he might get severely injured or killed and that no one would believe him or do anything then I can understand why he shot his stepfather.

_________________________
"Being with people that understand you...Priceless"

"and i don't want the world to see me, cause i don't think that they'd understand"

"You don't know what love is...you just do as your told"

"My life has changed. What you take as a simple thing, is not so simple for me anymore"


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