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#31540 - 05/24/02 05:04 PM Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wondering what your opinion is on this. Boylovers & pedophiles have the fantasy that they'll ride off into the sunset together in love with and being loved by their young victims. That's crap of course. Much like fantasizing getting rich by robbing a bank. All bank robbers are caught. In most cases rather quickly. Their total take usually amounts to a few hundred to several thousand dollars. Hardly enough to buy a used car. They think about that later while they're cooling their heels doing 10 to 20 years in prison. So what about guys who fantasize sex with children? Same thing? Does their eventual guaranteed prison cell begin with a fantasy leading to actualization of that fantasy?


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#31541 - 05/24/02 06:54 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Ken Singer, LCSW Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 08/24/00
Posts: 5773
Loc: Lambertville, NJ USA
Having worked with a couple thousand sexual abusers over the past 20+ years, I can tell you that abusers, like bank robbers, don't expect to get caught. Do they know that what they are doing is wrong and against the law? For the most part, yes. Many don't think that what they are doing is harmful to the victim, or they don't care.

How abusers enable themselves to do something they know is wrong or against the law is something called "distorted thinking" (also known in offender treatment circles as "thinking errors" or "cognitive distortions".) This consists of mental gymnastics such as denial ("He's sleeping and won't remember this"), minimization ("I'm only touching"), justification ("It happened to me, so...."), being above the law ("I won't get caught"), objectifying ("He's a little faggot who wants it"), blaming or scapegoating ("It's his fault for asking what a boner is"), playing the victim role ("He got me aroused when we were wrestling and I couldn't help myself").

There are other distortions abusers use as well. On a very small scale, you can compare the process with what most of us do from time to time, such as going over the speed limit. We know it is against the law to go over the limit, that we would have to pay a fine, that our insurance rates could go up, that our chances of getting into an accident increases with speed, etc. Yet, we take these facts into consideration and go ahead with rationalizations like, "Im just keeping up with the flow of traffice," "Everybody speeds", "I have an important meeting I have to get to", etc.

I hope this doesn't sound like an apology for abusers. Knowing the method of how abusers make it ok is important, particularly when a survivor thinks/believes that it is something he did that caused the abuser to do what he/she did. Abuser treatment is important to help prevent future abuse as well as to establish accountability and responsibility (it is always the abusers fault and responsibility, never the victim's.)

I think there is a difference between the abusers who maintain their beliefs that it is ok for adult/child sex versus those who take responsibility and acknowledge it was wrong and harmful. NAMBLA types who truly believe they did no wrong are difficult to treat (except perhaps on a superficial level) and fortunately are the small majority of abusers in treatment or the prison system. Most likely, they will be placed in sexually violent predator programs which keep them off the streets.

Fantasy management and changing the fantasies are an important part of treatment.

Hope this sheds some light.
Ken Singer, LCSW
NOMSV past president


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#31542 - 05/24/02 07:29 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you,ksinger. Brings to mind the two years I spent behind bars during the early 70s. Mostly for possession of marijuana. Those were "interesting times" as the Chinese are wont to say. Eventually,after the fun wore off of being busted I sat there in my little cell pondering what led me to this place. I mean,if you've got a functioning brain all you've gotta do is look around at who's with you in that Place and it'll dawn on you that your fellow travellers are to a large extent,total fucking assholes. I asked myself "Hey wait a minute. If my fellow inmates are assholes am I an asshole,too?". Thus begins the process of healing. Of coming back to reality. Of societal acceptance. Of having a future. Many years have passed. I've worn a badge since then. Held peoples' lives in my hands. And I have a few cop friends. One a Detective with decades under his belt. And politicians,Superior Court judges,lawyers,major-media types and a millionaire or two. It occures to me that those men out there with their dreamland fantasies of how good it will be should they take the steps from fantasizing to actualizing their sexual desires towards children,could they know the future awaiting them,would they proceed? That of which they dream are ashes-to-be. When a man attacks a child for sex there are no winners. No happy ending. No riding off into the sunset with his victim(s). There is only the arrest,imprisonment and the seemingly endless years-long sounds of heavy steel doors slamming shut,smell of industrial quality cleaning fluids,everpresent fear. If he somehow lives thru that,does his time and is released from custody he will for the rest of his life be forced to register at his local police station as a convicted sex offender. Oh yeah like THERE'S a thrill,right? I'd think it over.

[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: Tinfoil ]


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#31543 - 05/24/02 09:08 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Tinfoil
In answer to your main question "does the pedo' start with a fantasy?" I believe it must.
I think that most of us who have experienced distorted fantasies have walked a very fine line. We know the inevitability of the beast. Some of us were / are "lucky" that our particular fantasy is something legal at best. It might be antisocial to some peoples thinking, just as it might be the antithesis of what we want. With a liberal attitude we might not have objections to others doing what we fantasise about if that's what they want to do and nobody is abused or hurt, but in our saner moments we know its not what we want to do.
My fantasy has always been to give oral sex to other men, and in a two way voluntary situation what's wrong with that ? But I detest doing it, I did as a kid and I discovered that I do as an adult. But even as I recover from my SA this fantasy remains with me.
What drove me to rediscover this as an adult, what made me want what I know was so horrible ? Nothing more than the legacy of my abuse.
It started a process I didn't understand and could not stop.
I don't for one second believe that all abusers and pedo's are victims of sex abuse,although many are. But something kicks it off, mental or physical abuse, neglect, whatever. Something creates a misery that has to be escaped, and a retreat into fantasy is such an easy way out. And once we discover just how easy it is to retreat into our own little worlds then escalation is inevitable.
Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#31544 - 05/24/02 09:34 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Lloydy. A genetic predisposition towards gender preference has been in plain sight since I was a kid and long before that. And I was born in 1946. I don't care what it's called. The X & Y chromosomes or God becomming confused. But it's visable in the physical characteristics in some gays and lesbians. The religious whackos out there can kiss my ass. There are people who're created and born into gender-affection differences and to attack those people for their predilection is both ignorant and cruel to an extreme. My only question is,can sexuality be infused from without? To what extent does learned behavior play in this? I was subjected to incest. That's a big no-no nowadays. But it was'nt always that way as per the info at this url http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html


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#31545 - 05/24/02 09:58 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Tinfoil
I agree that you can't batter, abuse or persuade someone to become gay or lesbian, the evidence against that on this site alone discounts that. It creates tremendous confusion for certain, but the reasons lie in our makeup, not with influence.
Like you I don't subscribe to the theories that abusers commit abuse in directly the way they suffered. We're fucked up for sure, and are capable of all kinds of craziness. But if it was that simple, we'd all be behind bars -just in case.
If you look at the psycholgical studies by people like Bowlby, Lorenz and everybodys favouite, Freud, there are clear concepts of attachment and bonding that map our lives out. But I don't think anyone has demonstrated a clear link between influence and sexuality. Perhaps the ethics of that experiment are a step too far ?
Another factor I think pertinent is that I can think of no culture anywhere that allows incest or sex with children, although age of consent may be a different argument. But even though these may be taboo, being gay generally isn't. It may be hidden and frowned upon, but it's common and always has been.
Lloydy

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#31546 - 05/24/02 10:23 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Anonymous
Unregistered


What if there were no laws,no restrictions against adult/child sex? My bet is the taxable income from this would support entire nations. I had to deal with a rather stark unforgiving reality decades ago when I was a twelve year old boy in a World full of 1950s adults. The existing belief-systems were theirs' to play with. What choice had I?I stood quietly at a distance and watched. The experience was intensely fascinating. Ask a cop who's walked a beat for a decade or so. He knows what I know. There's the way we wish things would be. And there's the way things actually are. Most of what composes civilization is illusion. We've changed little during the last two million years. Rest not on our laurels for Hell will always be but an eyeblink away.


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#31547 - 05/25/02 01:21 AM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
getteddie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 226
Loc: Cub Hill, Md
I had fantasies about building my house before I did it...I think that all heavy things that we do start with a fantasy of it...why not??? That's why everyone is down on porno...it's info that the mind uses to start a fantasy..most of us don't act on this fantasy...but some do..it sucks..but we all act on some good fantasies...don't think about doing bad things and you won't be doing them? Whatever!
I do think that it's pretty interesting that you think that the bad guy "ALWAYS" gets busted! Or are you just bored and taking a poll????? The guys who raped me got away with it...never got busted for it..I..in person seen this black guy..in this 40's ...die...after getting away with it for 10 years plus!!!!!!! How many boys that get raped everyday in the US report it to anyone???? Very Few!!! Shame...Who wants to tell everyone in the world that you were fucked???? What will they think...what will they do?? Sometimes the boy gets so grossed out for reporting it ...that he never reports it again...he's only a kid!!! You can't expect kids...Boys to report that they were raped...this is what the Peds work with...some get away with it 100's of times..grow old and die with out ever getting busted! You say that all bank robbers get busted...wouldn't that be a FBI dream...a lot more bank robbers get busted than peds do! SA to kids takes place 1000's of times a day right here in the USA...Banks get robed 100's of times a day....there are not enough jails in the world to hold all the outlaws that are here in the US...They are getting away with it!!!!!!!! Don't believe it...start going to SA meetings and listen to the Peds tell their stories of getting away with it and trying to stop doing it with the 12 steps...if they get busted SA pays to free them...I seem it in person and wanted to kill all of them!!!! Maybe you live in better world than me...But hey...Good for you!!!

Eddie


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#31548 - 05/25/02 06:18 AM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
fmighell Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/01
Posts: 276
Loc: Anchorage,Alaska
Ideas and acting the ideas out?

I was thinking because after I was sexually abused before and when a police officer was standing on one side of a chain link fence and me standing on the other side,
I also was under age like twelve years old and remebered the police moto on the side of their police cars read "to serve and protect"
but when facing this policeman,
I was mad and angry, cussing and yelling at him because he was not around to protect me from being sexually abused.
I never meet this police man before and he never did anything wrong to me ether.
I wasn't only angery at the police but also at my parents and sometimes like alot of us angry with God for letting the abuse happen.

I don't feel that way today because I've grown older maybe and don't think anyone should be abused in any way still,
but I don't blame anyone but the actual one's, people that did hurt me. The aimnals.
Loosing their feelings, being out of control of them seleves. How can anyone think of doing an act of sexual abuse with any childern?
Not in a normal funtioning mind. I believe to some degree, influnced from some one, or something, that has happened before acting out. Well this is what I know for today.
fmighell


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#31549 - 05/25/02 06:33 PM Re: Do fantasies lead to actualization?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi getteddie. The bad guy DOES always get busted. If not by the law,well that's okay. You've heard that expression "What comes around,goes around". It's true. The Asians have another name for it. "Ying & Yang" I think. I knew guys (and gals) decades ago who patted themselves on their backs thinking themselves smarter than the people they so happily fucked over. Most are dead now. They led short,miserable lives. Cops know these people. They see them most every day in some areas. I could piss on the graves of literally dozens of people who viewed me as vulnerable and hurt me badly,long ago. That includes my mother,Mildred,who introduced me to incest all those many years ago. She died on Sept 4th,1994. Maybe once every two years or so I visit her crypt at Fairhaven,sit there on the cold hard cement bench next to her and ask "Why did you do it? You killed me,mom. You utterly fucking destroyed my life. Why did you do it?". The conversation's one-way. That'll have to suffice. It's the best I can do. Thing is,worms are eating her and not me. So who won? Same goes for the piece of shit that fucked you. If he's not dead yet he soon will be. Either from AIDS or a crack deal gone wrong. What comes around,goes around.


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