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#31224 - 10/22/04 04:56 PM False logic
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
I wanted to start this topic because I feel that it is extremely important. I don't have the time to add to it right now, but I will later. Please think of some of the false logic which you have used in your life and post it here.

One example that I think is common:
"I just want to get away from here. I want to go somewhere where nobody knows me and start over. I want to go where nobody knows about the abuse. I want to find new friends who don't know anything about this. Ones who I can become close to and trust. I want to leave all of this behind and start with a clean slate."

EDIT:
I want to get away from all of my friends and everyone that I know and make new friends who don't know anything about what happened to me. I want to make friends with people who I can trust with my deepest secrets.

What I was intending to reflect with the statement above is the desire to be invisible and suppress things contradicting with the desire to be close to and trust people. False logic and justification for pushing people out of your life.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#31225 - 10/22/04 05:15 PM Re: False logic
EGL Offline
Moderator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 06/19/04
Posts: 7819
False logic, debunked through therapy:

  • My father hit me because I made him have to do it and I was a disappointment.
  • My mother neglected me because I was unlovable.
  • My brother's sexual abuse of me was my fault because I should have told someone and/or tried to stop him.
  • My ex-wife had affairs because of something I did or did not do. I'm to blame for what she did.
  • All shame, guilt, and self-defeating behaviors I've had in life are deserved because I do not deserve to be happy since I am contaminated, damaged goods.


Man, makes me wonder how I ever functioned in life.

_________________________
Eddie

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#31226 - 10/22/04 05:35 PM Re: False logic
Aden Offline
Member

Registered: 07/05/04
Posts: 499
I don’t intend this as a criticism. More of an expansion really. The example of “false logic” that you gave is very good. But it is also false logic. Sometimes in fact, moving, changing locations, making new friends, getting a new job are perfect cures for the problems that plaque us. The false logic lies in the presumption that such changes will alter the essential YOU. The trick is to find a place and people who are compatible with who you are and what you need. That is not only possible, but a practical pursuit.

One of my favorite lines of false logic is this: If I am nice to people, people will be nice to me.

Aden


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#31227 - 10/22/04 06:21 PM Re: False logic
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Aden, I didn't post this to start an argument. I probably didn't state what I meant properly. I was just trying to get the topic started because I feel that it is an important one.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#31228 - 10/22/04 06:35 PM Re: False logic
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Here's more along the lines of what I meant:

If I love the person, then I won't tell anyone because I don't want them to get in trouble or be hurt.

I'm disgusting, so I will block you out of my life because You are better off without me in your life.

I love you so much that I want you to be happy and the only way that will happen is if you are not around me.

This is all directly tied into the conflicts which the perps project upon us with the confusion that they create.

We expand upon this stuff later in life in many ways.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#31229 - 10/22/04 07:51 PM Re: False logic
Dan88 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/07/02
Posts: 247
Loc: DC
Not exactly in line with where you've been going, but a big one for me is that any show of emotion is wrong.

I still remember being told I was a wrong for crying when I missed my father.

The perp would say: "God doesn't give us more than we can carry. Unless he was wrong in your case. You don't mean to say God was wrong do you? When you cry, that's exactly what you are saying."

It was always that way. Complain, cry, shout, laugh, whatever and you got punished. Just shut up and take it and you were fine.

Jesus Fucking Christ there's no end to the shit I used to have to listen to. I'm not surprised my head is full of false logic. I'm surprised there's any real logic left in there at all.


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#31230 - 10/22/04 08:29 PM Re: False logic
Brayton Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 696
Loc: Minneapolis
(I learned to become virtually invisible when I was a child and now it is effortless.)

I have a desire to go within myself, as I often do (disassociating), and to stay there forever.

Inside are many beautiful and peaceful and, certainly, safe places. When I am there I float on cool air with giant wings like an angel. I see mountains and oceans and extraordinary vistas. That world seems full of hope and possibility.

I see myself as two people. The outer man is a shell protecting the child within. When I feel fear and pain, it is the child who is burstsing out with it. The outer man is not a parent (I am very uncomfortable with that word for good reason) but a truly kind older friend, offering sincere unconditional love.

It is hard to access that place sometimes but when I look back it is amazing how large and bright that child has become. He used to be a small and dark thing cowering in corners and hiding under furniture.

_________________________
Sometimes, things just won't work the way we want them to.

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#31231 - 10/22/04 08:50 PM Re: False logic
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Dan,

you hit the target there. I used to think I had a really logical mind, but logic takes such a battering from all the emotions we had to deal with. I faced so many problems as a kid, that nothing I seemed to do seemed logical. If I was good, I was bad, if I was
bad, I was really bad. I always was seen as the problem in the family, was that logical?

I tried so much not to be, but families really don't know the damage going on in the kid, and they compound the damage, by thinking you should forget, and just be normal.
They don't know the amount of terror rippling through the kid, and just how much it affects him in a life situation, utter despair, and desperation in a totally hostile World. That was my perception as a kid, I still think that way today.

I haven't yet got a logical answer to tell me it isn't. :rolleyes:

Is that logical?

By the way, I only ever found any type of logic in this place, because I could never work this sh*t out without you guys filling in the spaces. Not being alone is a terrific feeling. ;\)

take care,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#31232 - 10/23/04 12:26 AM Re: False logic
Lloydy Offline
Administrator Emeritus
MaleSurvivor
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 7071
Loc: England Shropshire
Mike
I had over thirty years of thinking like this, all those examples you give have gone through my mind at one time or another.
What bullshit!

It's the self perpetuating effects of our abuse, we feel like shit so we 'believe we are shit'
And that's bullshit as well.

Once we begin to believe in ourselves again these thoughts begin to make no sense at all, we see right through the lies our abusers told us. Which is where the BS comes from.

Dave

_________________________
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams! Live the life you've imagined. As you simplify your life, the laws of the universe will be simpler.
Henry David Thoreau

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#31233 - 10/23/04 07:17 PM Re: False logic
Bill_1965 Offline
Chat Mod Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 06/29/03
Posts: 1983
Loc: Flint, Michigan
Quote:
One example that I think is common:
"I just want to get away from here. I want to go somewhere where nobody knows me and start over. I want to go where nobody knows about the abuse. I want to find new friends who don't know anything about this. Ones who I can become close to and trust. I want to leave all of this behind and start with a clean slate."
Read as: I want to ignore and forget about it.

False logic being that moving will make that happen.

_________________________
Pain is Temporary; Quitting lasts Forever. - Lance Armstrong

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#31234 - 10/24/04 02:32 PM Re: False logic
al Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 143
Loc: canada
i think maybe its about hope to. maybe we think we did something not quite right this time and if we had a chance to start over again fresh maybe we could do it right this time. run away from the problems, find new friends you can trust intimately, confide in them and maybe somehow they'll be able to fix something or make it better swomehow.

there's some kind of joke i heard that goes something like "(some person) is so dumb he tapes the game and watches it a second time thinking they couldn't posssibly win twice in a row".

maybe for us its stuck in our mins that we want a second chance cuz maybe this time we could do something about it. if we actually did get that chance, fasle logic is thinking we could either be happy hiding behind those massks or the outcome of haveing close friends to tell would somehow be different and maybe we could fix ourselves this time.

my 2 cents. make that $427.46 canadian \:D

_________________________
Those who dance appear insane to those who cannot hear the music. Mark Kleiman

Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it. Winston Churchill

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#31235 - 10/24/04 04:55 PM Re: False logic
MikeNY Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 927
Loc: NY
Like 80% of people, I knew my perp. My perp used this logic. It went something like this:

I love you so much that I am just going to ignore everything that you are, everything that you believe in, everything that you say, your stated wishes, your feelings, your beliefs, just everything, and I am going to do whatever the hell that I want to to you, then I'm going to try to convince you that it is love, and then I'm going to tell you that if you care about me, you will just accept all of this crap, and I will ask you to trust me because I know what I'm doing. Plus, I will try to justify it by attempting to convince you that I do those things because they are all what is best for you, and possibly for others.

Perps are nothing but animals, acting on animal instincts for desires. These animals then try to justify their actions using their own confusion over the freudian conflicts which have developed to the point of them being able to justify anything, including their own actions, using false logic. These conflicts have fully manifested within them to the point of them acting on them and causing harm to others. Regression to an earlier stage of development finishes the conversion from human to animal. Logic dissapears and all that is left is emotion. When the emotion ends, the false logic is used in an attempt to justify their animalistic behaviors.

The perp, projects their own torn and confused mind upon us and attaches their confusion to our feelings. The split which is within the perps mind, is transfered into the survivors. Fortunately, most of the justifications never are. I do not remember the exact numbers, but it is something like 90% of all perps have a history of having been abused. Plus, 90% of all survivors NEVER become perps. You would think that with these figures, the number of perps would be reducing. They will in the future if awareness grows. It will in the future if perps are stopped before they are able to perpetuate themselves like a virus (or as I have heard it refered to: vampire syndrome). 1 in 10 are infected, so if a perp has 20 victims, there are two new perps.

I haven't looked at this stuff recently. If anyone has updated statistics, please post them.


Ever wonder why we spend so much time trying to figure out, understand, and even justify the actions of sick individuals who do disgusting things to us? Why do we even try to place ourselves within the context of the mind of our perps?

We do it because the things which they do are so foreign to us that we cannot even come close to comprehending them. We do it because we are not like them. We do it because we have no concept or understanding of their behaviors. We do it because we are far better than them. We do it because we know and feel things which they are utterly incapable of. We do it because down inside each and every one of us, we truly know and understand what love is.

Do yourself a favor. Stop trying to justify their actions for them. Just hold them responsible for their actions. Just take the blinders off and see them for what they truly are.

Once you've done that, you will start to understand things far more than you even want to.

I have come to understand the motivations of my perp. I am glad that I am not like those people. I wish I never learned any of the things which I have concerning it.

Part of what tears us apart is our desire to understand them, the desire which we had to not see them get hurt or in trouble, and a desire to forgive them. In most cases, we gave them love and trust which they are not capable of understanding. Now, thanks to how they infected us, most have a desire to do everything possible to never become like them, while at the same time suffering from some of the residual effects that they left behind.

The cycle stops here. It stops now.

_________________________
"Every child asks the questions which hold the answers to the secrets of the universe, WHAT?, and WHY?". --Me

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#31236 - 11/14/04 09:50 AM Re: False logic
lostcowboy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/10/04
Posts: 795
Loc: North Texas
MikeNY first let me say thinks for starting this thread. I firmly believe that false logic generated due to our SA, and other bad things that happen to us, and some normal things that happen, but or misinterpreted due to our SA are at the heart of our problems! we also have negative tapes that we play in our heads that our reinforcing. There is a old book called Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz that talks about the tapes. There are maybe better books out there. But I have not read them yet I'll see I can find some of my old books.

I still haven't written much here, but here are some of my false logic's.
I was raped in 1968.
I thought the boy who raped me may have done it due to me using the wrong names for black people. Or my feminine nature. Later I thought the boy must have been gay boy that could not, or did not want to control his sexual attraction to me.

Because I did not continue fighting until death when he put a knife to my throat, but instead chose to live and summit-ed, that meant I was a sniveling COWARD! You know John Wayne my hero, would have gone down fighting! So I had to have been a coward, never could be a hero!
I read in a sex book that it is normal for some boys to become aroused in puberty, around there mother. Normal boys have guilt trips over this. Us due to the SA have living nightmares that never go away! Example my mother got a divorce. She pulled me onto her lap for a hug, I got a erection, and broke away so she would not know that I was becoming my own worst nightmare, a rapist! I tried to stay away, but became a peeping tom on my own mother for a short while!

I must be the invisible man, no girl can see me.
Being that I could not defend myself, no women in my age group would ever want me! This one seems to work like a self fulfilling prophecy! The only girls that showed any type of interest in me were half my age in my young years. Later there were prostitutes and stripper in my age group, but they were only interested in my money. My wife is thirty years older than me, I think I married her for all the wrong reasons, but she has stuck with me through thick and thin, and I have learned to love her dearly. That's all for now.

Take care,
Lostcowboy

_________________________
"Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus
Pretty much my life as I have posted so far. Triggers!

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#31237 - 11/14/04 06:52 PM Re: False logic
reality2k4 Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 6838
Loc: Stuck between water, air, and ...
Mike, I will only ever \:\)

When no kid is abused, and I mean absolutely none

Hope we can make a difference for the future generations,

ste

_________________________
Whoever stole the Sun, put it back and we'll drop all the charges!

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#31238 - 11/14/04 07:21 PM Re: False logic
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
Hi Mike, thanks for starting this thread.

A big mistake I continue to make over and over again is to believe that logic, false or other, is the effective way to experience emotions.

And that, I'm afraid, is absolutely not true.

So in a way whether the logic is false or true matters little, because in order for me to process, digest, move through, and make progress by means of what I am feeling, I must actually have the experience of that emotion.

Talking about, understanding logically, intellectually parsing and other rational attempts at defusing the emotional content of my life is like reading a map and expecting to then look up and find myself arrived at the destination. It helps to be able to read the map, but it's not the end of the process.

Understanding the directions is no substitute for taking one step after another on the path toward what I am seeking.

Logic, of any kind, applied to emotions, is an attempt to apply laws of one realm to an entirely different world with its own laws and dynamics.

That's why false logic seems to work just as well as true logic in dealing with what are essentially emotional disturbances.

Quote:
Perps are nothing but animals, acting on animal instincts for desires
To me, this statement represents an attempt to impose logical constraints on situations that themselves deny any logic. Sexual abuse does not represent a logical construct. They are not rational events, therefore they are immune to rational deconstruction and understanding.

As an expression of hatred, anger, bitterness, revenge, superiority and many other emotions which will help me separate my identity from the abuser, it may well be of temporary assistance to view the perpetrator as an animal, less than human, so different than me that I am able to despise him for what he did.

But in the long run, I feel strongly that the true healing for me comes at the moment that I realize that the abuser, perpetrator is disturbingly like me. A human being with the power of choice, who has chosen wrongly, and who is unwilling or unable to show or feel remorse for the harm he has done.

Thinking of the perpetrator as a possible "me", forces me to assume the burden of responsibility for my actions and to monitor my behavior, because it is not animals who harmed me, but men of flesh and blood, made in the image of God just like me who have made irresponsible choices in their behavior and done grievous harm to me and others.

No seeking argument here either, so please forgive my tendency to sound pedantic or argumentative on my part. I knew I should never have studied French literature! :-)

I'm really trying to say that our false logic represents the best that we are able to do at the time to deal with difficult if not impossible situations.

For me, what a lot of my recovery from sexual abuse comes down to is finding better, more effective ways to process, handle, survive, grow through and recover from the effects of sexual abuse. Better ways, meaning that what I have done up until now was OK too.

There are many solutions to the problems brought about by sexual abuse. Some of them are harmful to me as a person; compulsive behavior, alcohol and substance abuse, promiscuity, these and many others are types of solutions. Not great ones, but solutions none the less.

These poor solutions have kept me alive long enough to get here where I have a chance to find better, more effective, loving and growth filled solutions.

I really appreciate you and the other guys here being a part of that better solution for me. I continue to seek more and continue to be rewarded with more chance for emotional expression and healing. Then I have no more need for my false logic.

Thanks for a great topic. I really needed it today. My thinking today is "If I had more money, my problems would be solved." "Or if I could get laid, I would not feel so lonely."

Gratefully,

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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#31239 - 11/15/04 07:17 AM Re: False logic
dwf Offline
Moderator/BoD Emeritus
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 1223
Loc: Austin, Texas USA
This quote expresses with great eloquence an idea I tried to express above:

Quote:
If it were all so simple!
If only there were evil people
somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds,
and if it were necessary only
to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them.

But the line dividing good and evil
cuts through the heart of every human being.
And who is willing to destroy
a piece of his own heart?
-Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

_________________________
"Poke salad Annie, 'gators got you granny
Everybody said it was a shame
'Cause her mama was aworkin' on the chain-gang"

-Tony Joe White

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