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#311831 - 11/26/09 07:13 AM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: AndyS87]
westchesterguy Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/13/09
Posts: 421
Loc: Westchester County NY
Originally Posted By: AndyS87
...I identify as heterosexual, but my very first sexual experiences, beginning around age 6, were of a homosexual nature, which bread considerable confusion for me especially after entering puberty.....

But, I think that people also watch porn to let certain fantasies of theirs play out, and in that sense, porn can be a base indicator of a desire.

With women, because of a lot of what I explained before, I tend to push them away. The ones who have been intimate with me emotionally I either forced out of my life or just didn't allow to get close enough to see the real me. I wasn't ready.


Andy, I applaud where you at with all of this. Man, at 22 I was no where near it. smile Ok, now to business.

I think that I understood this recent post more clearly, and in reading it I had a few 'ah ha' moments to understand where you are coming from. I'm seeing a pattern that, in my view, placed equal weight of stress upon 'what ifs' when maybe the focus should be reevaluated towards physical outcome rather than hypothetical ideas.

Example: I could be injured in a car accident (hypothetical). It is true yes, but that worry is over the top for me. It is noise that if I allow it to bust my speakers could drive me nuts and lead me to avoid driving all together.

I have been in an accident once and it wasn't my fault (physical outcome). Good chance I'll never have one again even if I drive every day, but I've accepted/weighed the risk is just not important for me to worry about.

Like this example, I think many survivors have the male on male issue to deal with, simply because we obviously did cross that line, liked it or not, forced or not, we just did and it is against every bible thumping ideal this country stands for. So, sometimes tabling "what if," placing less importance on it to focus on our list of goals could help reduce those what ifs. Leading to the next issue:

Porn... let's be real here. We choose to watch it. It isn't forced upon us. We actively seek it online or rent it on dvd whatever is the case today, and physically place it in a player of some kind and flip the switch to 'on'. Desire? Or bad habit? Compulsive habit? Maybe there is an opportunity here to think not so much about which porn is being watched - but to simply not watch any porn. Turn it off, block the urls, toss the dvds. Take a shower. Take up smoking. Read. Cook. Run. Bowl. smile Make that 100% effort to avoid it.

Women...Me thinks this is a separate issue entirely and the one that could use the most weight. I can also relate with the "pushing them away" part. I can tell you the exact moment this switched in me, when I said to myself "I could never do that to a woman..." meaning penetration. Meaning my own forced abuse. It all meant the same to me.

So, a lot of "why" questions exist here, why do you push women away, why do you avoid intimacy, why are you not ready? And I'm being very specific in suggesting the answers are not tied to the porn topic or fear of finding another guy attractive. I think there is an opportunity to explore other reasons that may or may not be tied to your own sexual abuse.

_________________________
Jeff

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#311844 - 11/26/09 10:35 AM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: westchesterguy]
AndyS87 Offline


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 303
Loc: sorry, but I don't say on the ...
Westchester guy, the car accident analogy fits it PERFECTLY. You nailed it man.


Yeah, the gay porn was something that ultimately I did choose to do. It was an outlet for my acting out, and the more therapy I did, the less I was into it. Hetero porn I have been watching and masturbating to since I was 14, on and off. I try not to watch too often because it kills your ability to fantasize, but there are some times when I just really wanna get off and I don't have time for a fantasy so I just flick on some porn and get it done quickly.


With women, I don't know EXACTLY why I push them away, I only have theories. When it comes to sex, I absolutely without a shadow of a doubt enjoy myself (so long as those worries I talked about earlier don't encter my mind mid act). Similarly to your feeling that your penetration is abusive though, if I see that it looks like I'm hurting the girl I'm with, I can't keep going. If she's totally into me though, it's a huge turn on.

Like I said earlier in a different post, women have caused me a lot of emotional trauma. As a result, I'm too shy to approach them unless I've had some "liquid courage" in me. If I KNOW that a girl is into me, and I find her attractive, then I have no problems approaching and starting conversation, I know that I won't be rejected, and I also know I won't have to try and accidentally make an idiot out of myself if I try too hard.

When I talk about the girls I was intimate with in the past, and me pushing them away, that was all before I went into therapy for this CSA, and before I had looked into what was going on. I figured if it ever got out to a girlfriend, I would be totally and completely rejected and dumped flat on my ass. Not wanting to be the one getting rejected, I just strait up acted like a dick for a while to get her to dump me. Then even though she was dumping me, it was what I wanted her to do. Sneaky sneaky! But yeah, then I thought that if people found out they would think I was some kind of monster or some freak or something, and I knew she was starting to suspect something. One time when we went to have sex she noticed that even as excited as I was I was also shaking (to this day I maintain it was just adrenaline shakes, I was 18 and it was my first sexual relationship so I was excited as hell), small cues like that that got her wondering.

In a nutshell, there's a really simple cognition floating around in there that I have yet to pin down, cause it knows I'm looking for it. Most likely it is something like "I can't trust women" or "women want to manipulate me" or "women will hurt me and be verbally abusive towards me" etc. As I've gotten older and more social though, this has faded away bit by bit. After getting the issues with my sister off my chest, they faded a little bit more, but they are undeniably still there. It's a comlex issue though, there's certainly a fear of rejection, a fear of embarrassing myself, and something else that deals with a basic fear of women. Sexually I was never abused by a woman but I did deal with quite a bit of verbal and emotional abuse, and I won't even try to deny that it left marks on my mental state somewhere.

Finally, Happy Thanksgiving to all of you! Enjoy your holiday.



Edited by AndyS87 (11/26/09 10:41 AM)

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#311976 - 11/27/09 03:05 PM . [Re: AndyS87]
bardo213 Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 09:43 PM)

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#311981 - 11/27/09 04:18 PM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: bardo213]
sono Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
Hey Andy,

I wanted to try and highlight for you those women issues...well for myself as well. I don't want to go all into my deal on your thread, but I can say those huge issues that you can grow up with as it has to with important females in your life as a kid can be just as a big an impediment to working out your own stuff as the csa. Obviously in some cases the line is blurred with those women and csa, even if it isn't out and out intercourse.

I was reading recently on the Theo Fluery sponsored website, 1in6.org about survivors and a risk of overlooking other factors in whatever issues they may be facing and tracing the root for everything back to the csa, when in fact issue x.y or z might have something else as it's cause. I mean, chances are if you and I had never been abused, we certainly would have had our family/female issues, but without this other enormous elephant in the room, the concern over that might not have gone in this direction.

Your story about the clothes store and the mall...oh, that shit will drive you crazy! I wonder if victims of other trauma have similar issues with having to determine if images (in this case men but in others perhaps airplanes or cars) similar to their trauma turn them on. Maybe they do, I don't know, but it really is one of the least "fair" bits of this whole thing.

I think this is a great discussion Andy. I invite you to read my link below about the women in my family from the standpoint of another csa victim who also has unrelated (??) issues with women clouding the picture. Please feel free to PM me about that female thing if you like.

all the best,

sono

_________________________
the family
the perp

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#311983 - 11/27/09 04:28 PM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: bardo213]
DJsport Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 1742
Hi, Andy.

Great thread. I am happy your examing yourself.

I was NOT aware of the csa events in my life when I was your age so, I will respond as I learned the events in my life.

I hid my same sex attractions. Your NOT which is great. I sexualized every male relationship and your NOT. I point this out because that is great. I get stuck If I think to much about somethings so, today I distract myself and it greatly helps. I recognized today my same sex attractions are admirations as well like all boys/men do NOT sexual attractions. I admire both muscular and swimmer builds BUT would never have sex with a muscular guy.

In other words - I keep it simple. I have sex with very few of men and admire from a distance men. When I recognize both of these facts then my homophobia or fear of men is reduced.

Also, my relationship with my dad was terrible which contributed to my fear of men in general which is almost null now.

Your a good man and deserve peace. Your doing well.

Peace,
DJ

_________________________
Live to your fullest potential

Never make someone a priority if your only an option

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#312063 - 11/27/09 11:06 PM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: DJsport]
AndyS87 Offline


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 303
Loc: sorry, but I don't say on the ...
thanks guys, really appreciate all this. Sometimes I tend to think that I've gotten better and that I don't need to be on here anymore, and then I realize that I'm dumping an entire support community.


Lynch, I can obsess about nearly anything that interests me or irritates me, that's my issue. I'm also a "stacker". If given a bunch of things in a pile, it drives me NUTS if I can't stack them up in perfect symmetry. NO idea why, just the way it is. When I was younger I was a pack rat, couldn't throw away anything I owned, and just about everything had sentimental value to me for some reason. I dunno why.

As far as my overall health, I'm in pretty good shape. Not a runner or a weightlifter, but every day I do about 40 pullups, 60 pushups, 100-200 situps, squats until I get tired, etc, and I usually attend martial arts classes 3-5 times a week, and have since I was 14. My diet is mostly vegetarian. I do eat meat and animal products but it's not a huge part of my diet. Not a big soda or alcohol person, I drink mostly water and green or white tea. Blood pressure is low, cholesterol's good, hearts ok, etc. BUT I will tell you that if ONE of those things happens to be slightly off kilter after I visit the doctor, I will go ape shit over it and monitor it constantly. I actually do this with my weight, as I had cardiac issues in high school (combo of gaining too much weight on my frame from football, I was nearly 200 pounds and I typically go around at 170) and if my weight gets too high I tend to get nervous. Social withdrawl is something I do too, but I don't know if that's coping or just that I'm more of an introvert than an extrovert. I enjoy relaxing by myself alone sometimes, although too much and I start to think about random shit and I drive myself up a wall.

Sono, that makes perfect sense, and I have considered that at times I use the CSA to obstruct other issues and tr to pin a lot of issues on just that. Cheers for that one.


Anyways, thank you all again for your help. Be well, hope you're all stuffed half to death from Thanksgiving.


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#312072 - 11/28/09 12:13 AM . [Re: AndyS87]
bardo213 Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 09:44 PM)

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#312120 - 11/28/09 10:47 AM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: bardo213]
AndyS87 Offline


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 303
Loc: sorry, but I don't say on the ...
well yeah physically my health is ok...mentally it's sure not as bad as it was a few years ago but all of the thinking I do around this stuff stresses me out quite a bit. My family is good very close, very supportive, apart from some issues with my Mom, but she's only one part of an ENORMOUS family. Career wise I'm still a student, and god knows I get plenty of time to relax. I make sure of that. Emotionally I could be healthier, at least when it comes to dating. If I have to compete for a womans attention I usually think "that other dude she's talking with must have this this and this and I can't compete with that so I shouldn't bother", etc. Kinda pathetic, but that's how it is. I don't do well in the bar/club scene like a lot of other people my age. Not into it that much, it's all just meaningless sex. Every now and then that's fine with me, but I don't understand how people can do that every weekend or multiple times a weekend. I'd think you'd want to have something more than "this person looks good" factor into play before you took em to bed. I guess that's not all that common though.


As far as obessions go, I usually do tend to tune them out. I tried anti-depressants a while back because they're supposed to be good for anti-ocd and anti-axiety as well but they made things worse. I am in a better spot now mentally though, so who knows, maybe I'll try again some day. As far as the negative obsessions go, they only occur if something triggers them. Over time if I don't run across any triggers, they go away and I don't worry about them as much, because once I start worrying I can't stop until I microanalyze and file everything away so that it makes sense to me. My closest friends who know what happened tell me all the time that I need to stop thinking so much about how other people are viewing me, because they tell me that people see me as just a really laid back, friendly person and that I'm one of the only people they know who think I'm crazy or not normal or what have you. Self Perception, lack of self confidence, I've spent a lot of time thinking (the magic word) about these things for years now. Getting into CBT honestly would prob. be a good thing.


Oh yeah, also, a year ago if somebody had said I was gay or said I was a fag or something It would have DESTROYED me, my panic level would jump through the roof and I'd obsess over why they did that for days. I don't even flinch now because it doesn't really bother me anymore. That's just people being pissed or alternately fooling around, not an affront to my sexuality or an accusation of me being homosexual or anything like that. But yeah, I do think that perhaps getting out of EMDR and into CBT might help me out. truth be told though I wish I could find a magic bullet so that I could get out of therapy and get on with life.


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#312146 - 11/28/09 01:56 PM . [Re: AndyS87]
bardo213 Offline
Guest

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 811
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Edited by bardo213 (06/21/13 09:44 PM)

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#312147 - 11/28/09 02:00 PM Re: Weird kind of thought pattern after therapy [Re: bardo213]
AndyS87 Offline


Registered: 12/12/08
Posts: 303
Loc: sorry, but I don't say on the ...
Dude it definitely helps, I am welcome to any advice I can get in that particular area in getting out of my head when it starts to bounce off the walls.

On a totally unrelated subject, you wouldn't happen to be a fan of Dokken, George Lynch, or the band Lynchmob would you? I've been wondering if that's what your username refers to.


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