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#304290 - 09/26/09 12:33 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: myboyhoodfears]
cstjude Offline
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MaleSurvivor

Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
I think perhaps there was a valuable opportunity lost for all involved. Wouldn't it have been preferable to invite both the young man with the critical Obama t-shirt and a student sporting a t-shirt espousing the opposite argument to both give their factual defense of their positions to the classmates? Respectfully, without interruption, without censorship. Just lay the positions in front of the class and encourage a respectful discussion. It can be done. Debating clubs do it all the time. It would take a courageous and gifted teacher, but it can be done.

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#304291 - 09/26/09 12:34 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: cstjude]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it." Voltaire.

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#304379 - 09/27/09 11:13 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: cstjude]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: cstjude
I think perhaps there was a valuable opportunity lost for all involved. Wouldn't it have been preferable to invite both the young man with the critical Obama t-shirt and a student sporting a t-shirt espousing the opposite argument to both give their factual defense of their positions to the classmates? Respectfully, without interruption, without censorship. Just lay the positions in front of the class and encourage a respectful discussion. It can be done. Debating clubs do it all the time. It would take a courageous and gifted teacher, but it can be done.



Yeah, debating clubs in high school.

Elementary schools have so much basic material to teach students and an incredibly limited time in which to do it. Accommodating such a debate would require injecting lessons into the cirriculum about debating method and ettiquette, even on a very simple level. It would turn a day's disruption into a week or more.

There's a reason MOST schools have rules against wearing inflammatory or disruptive clothing. Not the time, not the place.

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#304425 - 09/27/09 07:35 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
MrEdd Offline
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Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Texas
The basics of debate were taught to myself and my fellow students in Mrs. Beck's third grade speech class at John James Audubon school in Tulsa.

That was in 1970.

Have academic standards really fallen so far?

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#304431 - 09/27/09 08:18 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: MrEdd]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: MrEdd
The basics of debate were taught to myself and my fellow students in Mrs. Beck's third grade speech class at John James Audubon school in Tulsa.

That was in 1970.

Have academic standards really fallen so far?


Yes and no.

The primary difference is that nowadays, as compared to 1970, there's nearly twice as much the kids must be taught, but still the same amount of time (insofar as the length of the school day and the school year goes) to teach them. So adjustments must be made. Some things have to be booted to a later grade, or made elective. There's just not enough time. Not unless you want to go the way of Japan with its year-long, 6-days-a-week schooling.

Of course, Japan is only a world leader in the realm of primary education, so there's no reason to want to emulate them. Americans have long, long since lost their drive to be world leaders at anything, having discovered that it takes a lot less effort to just unilaterally declare yourself the best damn country on earth regardless, and we're more than happy to leave it at that.



Edited by melliferal (09/27/09 08:19 PM)
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#304441 - 09/27/09 09:43 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Any school that encourages the kids to participate in "Patriotism Day" should be prepared to handle some - even rudimentary discussion - about what the means. And that discussion should acknolwedge that not everyone feels the same way about their president. It would have been a learning moment. And that moment was lost in all the rhetoric. Pity.

C.

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#304462 - 09/28/09 12:18 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: melliferal

Of course, Japan is only a world leader in the realm of primary education, so there's no reason to want to emulate them. Americans have long, long since lost their drive to be world leaders at anything, having discovered that it takes a lot less effort to just unilaterally declare yourself the best damn country on earth regardless, and we're more than happy to leave it at that.


Yeah, no kidding!!! We live in a country where the majority of people seem to mock those with intelligence and learning and worship and glorify the "dumb jock" view of things. Sad state indeed!

I feel a persons right to free speech is valuable and worth protecting, but I find more and more the education system does more and more to tell kids to "sit down and shut-up". Most of the time when I get into a conversation about the law and constitution with someone younger..... I find out quickly that they really don't know a darn thing and what they do know isn't even close to the truth, it's some warped sense of understanding that's been fed to them by one propaganda group or another that was obviously more interested in forcing their view on people than providing truth or equality.


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#304493 - 09/28/09 09:58 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: JustScott]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
It's wrong for the parents to allow their son to wear an anti-Obama t-shirt, but ok for the school to have little kids sing praise of Obama.....

I'm trying to figure out how the school can define for the children what their political opinion is, when the parents themselves don't have that right. Is it right? Maybe. Is it wrong? Maybe. But I doubt the parents told their son "you're gonna wear this t-shirt, like it or not!", bu the school is in an implied level of authority, comply or else.

The son can always say no, and typically not face any repercutions. But the students DON'T KNOW if they can refuse, because they know they must obey their teachers.


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