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#303960 - 09/24/09 09:28 AM Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt
Hauser Offline
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#303961 - 09/24/09 09:30 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
Hauser Offline
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Suspended for "Willful disobedience".

The lesson here: Always blindly obey authority, or face the consequences.

So kids are not allowed to express opinions about government or politicians?

What a bunch of CRAP!!!


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#303988 - 09/24/09 02:06 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Alan,

I was rescearching this and found that the Surpreme Court has ruled that a child does not leave his constitutional rights at the door step of the school.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#303993 - 09/24/09 02:35 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: Hauser

So kids are not allowed to express opinions about government or politicians?

What a bunch of CRAP!!!


Don't be silly. That kid was expressing his PARENTS' opinion about a politician, not his own.

I can't stand adults who manipulate children into campaigning for them, no matter what the issue is. Everytime I see children at union pickets or protests I want to smack their parents viciously.

_________________________
Children cannot consent; they can only comply.

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#303995 - 09/24/09 02:53 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
Barkabus Offline
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Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
Quote:
That kid was expressing his PARENTS' opinion about a politician, not his own.

How do you happen to know what this kid's opinion is?

So its OK for schools to indoctrinate our kids but it is NOT OK parents to do so? There is something VERY wrong with this picture.

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#303997 - 09/24/09 02:59 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Barkabus]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: Barkabus
Quote:
That kid was expressing his PARENTS' opinion about a politician, not his own.

How do you happen to know what this kid's opinion is?


Think the boy spotted that t-shirt while shopping with his parents at the Super K-Mart and begged them to get it for him? Come on.

_________________________
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#304001 - 09/24/09 03:29 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Melliferal,

No but it does look like he made the T-shirt himself. And how do you know that his parents manipulated him into doing anything. I think it is only natural as a child you will have some of the same opinions as your parents. They do have the most influence on you as a child. As children grow and mature they developed their own views and opinions.
Also being apart of a political or union campaign teaches them that it is up to them help mold their political and social environments. And not leave it up to some self serving politician to make these decisions. When a large group of our citizens stand up and speak out for what they want and expect from their repensatives and government. It is very hard for the politicians to ignore them if they want to win the next election.
Or are our children only to be influenced by what the fed's and the school system feed them at school. The responsibility of molding a child begins at home not at school. School is for teaching them the three R's.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#304004 - 09/24/09 03:48 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: michael banks]
melliferal Offline
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Originally Posted By: michael banks
Melliferal,

And how do you know that his parents manipulated him into doing anything. I think it is only natural as a child you will have some of the same opinions as your parents. They do have the most influence on you as a child.


You answer your own question.

Originally Posted By: michael banks
As children grow and mature they developed their own views and opinions.


And that is the time they should be encouraged to express them. You think this 11-year-old came up with the notion that "Obama is a terrorist's best friend" on his own? Ten dollars says he's subject to a near-constant stream of anti-Obama rhetoric whenever the name comes up at home.

Originally Posted By: michael banks
Also being apart of a political or union campaign teaches them that it is up to them help mold their political and social environments. And not leave it up to some self serving politician to make these decisions. When a large group of our citizens stand up and speak out for what they want and expect from their repensatives and government. It is very hard for the politicians to ignore them if they want to win the next election.


I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it teaches children this young that at all. They go to the pickets and hold up signs because their parents tell them to. Their parents' friends then fawn all over them and their "cute" little signs and it makes the kids happy. They'll never see the changes they make; the "victory" is too abstract for them to understand.

Originally Posted By: michael banks
Or are our children only to be influenced by what the fed's and the school system feed them at school. The responsibility of molding a child begins at home not at school. School is for teaching them the three R's.


Obviously those parents disagree that's all school is for; they also believe it's a place for them to campaign by proxy. I believe in free speech generally - even in high school, where kids -are- becoming independently aware of issues and are wanting to express their opinions, whatever those opinions may be. In fact, I will state expressly that if we were dealing with a high school junior getting in trouble for wearing the same shirt, I'd be criticising the school just as well. But this little boy's parents sent him to his elementary school with that shirt in order to stir up trouble. I will not support that; it's ridiculous.

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#304011 - 09/24/09 04:04 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
pufferfish Offline
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Registered: 02/26/08
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eek



Edited by pufferfish (09/24/09 05:04 PM)

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#304015 - 09/24/09 04:13 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
Melliferal,

I can remember being about this kids age maybe 10 because it was the next school year after I was abused sexually by my fourth grade teacher. But anyway, it was also about the time I began to become aware of the Vietnam war and all the people that were getting killed over there. And the discord that it was causing here at home and the antiwar movement that sprang up in protest of it. I didn't really understand all the ramifications of what was really happening just that it was important.
My mother took me to the shoe store because I need a new pair of sneakers. I chose a pair that had the peace sign all over them and my parents never said a word. I wore them to school and my teacher did make a comment but did not make any big deal about it either did the school administers. Why make such a big deal with this instance. Seems to me that we have a tendency to make mountains out of mole hills.

Or is it because the teachers Union suppoted Obama.
I voted for Obama and i support this child's right to say what he feels he wants to express.
Even it is just ignorance.

mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#304020 - 09/24/09 04:43 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: michael banks]
melliferal Offline
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Originally Posted By: michael banks
Melliferal,

I can remember being about this kids age maybe 10 because it was the next school year after I was abused sexually by my fourth grade teacher. But anyway, it was also about the time I began to become aware of the Vietnam war and all the people that were getting killed over there. And the discord that it was causing here at home and the antiwar movement that sprang up in protest of it. I didn't really understand all the ramifications of what was really happening just that it was important.
My mother took me to the shoe store because I need a new pair of sneakers. I chose a pair that had the peace sign all over them and my parents never said a word. I wore them to school and my teacher did make a comment but did not make any big deal about it either did the school administers. Why make such a big deal with this instance. Seems to me that we have a tendency to make mountains out of mole hills.


Do you think if this kid wore a shirt with the Republican Party logo on it, he would've gotten in trouble? No. A peace sign CAN be a statement or not, but it's not inflammatory either way. Do you honestly believe if you'd gone to school wearing a shirt that said "LBJ likes to kill little kids like me", nobody would've made a big deal out of it then? Something tells me they might've.

_________________________
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#304026 - 09/24/09 05:09 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
michael banks Offline


Registered: 06/12/08
Posts: 1755
Loc: Mojave Desert, Ca
As I remember It was aprety hotly dispute issue at the time. And the peace sign was a part of the antiwar compaign. I also remember college kids being killed at Kent state and other places who were protesting the war.
But at least at my school they were not over reacting to what we were wearing.

Mike

_________________________
To own one's shadow is the highest moral act of a human.
-Robert Johnson-

"IT ought never be forgotten that the past is the parent of the future" John C. Calhoun

WOR Alumni Sequoia 2009

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#304049 - 09/24/09 07:08 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: michael banks]
Hauser Offline
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Mel? I hear you, I really do. But..........ok.......what about parents that influence a child's view on God and Religion? Would you fault a parent that teaches their child to believe in God and that they want him/her to hold up certain moral/religious values, and to STAND behind them?

I would contend that it is the parent's RESPONSIBILITY to instill a sense of values and principles which you STAND BEHIND, like this kid did.

Would ANY of you guys have had the guts that this 11yo did to make that stand? I totally commend him.

And WHY is it ok for the (government) school to make "special time" to praise the glory of our country? What if you don't BELIEVE in the actions and principles that are guiding this country's leaders?

And by the way, what is wrong with dissent? I thought dissent was the highest form of patriotism. Or was Thomas Jefferson wrong about that as well?

LOL


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#304064 - 09/24/09 08:03 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
FormerTexan Offline
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Registered: 09/12/04
Posts: 11103
Loc: Denver, CO
I commend the kid for taking a stand.
I condemn the school for theirs.

Last year, before election time, a girl in a high school conducted an experiment. She wore a shirt that stated simply "McCain Girl" on it. She was verbally abused by other students and at least one teacher. No praise. The next day she wore a shirt that said "Obama Girl" on it, and was praised for it. She took notes both days and published her results. The teacher who insulted her the prior day felt a foot tall after finding out about the experiment.

_________________________
List of things ain't nobody got time for:

1. That


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#304065 - 09/24/09 08:05 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
melliferal Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hauser
Mel? I hear you, I really do. But..........ok.......what about parents that influence a child's view on God and Religion? Would you fault a parent that teaches their child to believe in God and that they want him/her to hold up certain moral/religious values, and to STAND behind them?

I would contend that it is the parent's RESPONSIBILITY to instill a sense of values and principles which you STAND BEHIND, like this kid did.

Would ANY of you guys have had the guts that this 11yo did to make that stand? I totally commend him.


No - you don't seem to be hearing what I said. I don't believe this kid was "standing" behind anything. He was OBEYING. There's a difference. And no, I don't have a problem with kids learning to obey a set of rules or values even if they're not yet cogent enough to know why they're supposed to be doing so, and even if those values are as specific as "hate Obama". Children are children because they need parents to guide them, after all. It's when parents take advantage of their callow children - when they take the step from guidance to exploitation - that I take issue with them.

And it's hardly limited to things like inflammatory t-shirts. A parent who enrolls and encourages his child in a sporting activity at a young age is doing a good thing - and so are the adults who decide to coach them. Sports teach a kid about friendly competition, teamwork, and (hopefully) how to be a class act no matter what happens. It's all well and good until the adults - parents or coaches - turn into these people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_8Cn6jw_5I

In those cases, something happened. Somewhere along the line, the point behind the kid's involvement in the sport shifted from the kid's growth and development to something else. It happens when they stop thinking of their children as children, and start having visions of them being star athletes.

That kid's parents sending him to elementary school in a shirt that says "Obama is a terrorist's best friend" is a stunt; it's reprehensible, and in my opinion is the "academic" equivalent, as it were, of being the loud and vulgar mother on the bleachers that everybody feels embarrassed to be around. They got their kid "interested" in how evil politicians are, made him feel excited and hyped because he was part of something big apparently, and at some point forgot that he was just a kid who can't possibly understand the subtle nuances of logic underlying exactly why this or that policy of Obama is bad for the country. And even if he was one of the "smart ones" - who do you think benefitted from his statement? Oh, it goes without saying that a lot of his classmates will absolutely love him now, but it goes equally without saying that the reason behind that has nothing to do with what was actually on his shirt.

Originally Posted By: Hauser
And WHY is it ok for the (government) school to make "special time" to praise the glory of our country? What if you don't BELIEVE in the actions and principles that are guiding this country's leaders?


It's not. If you don't believe in the direction the country is going or whatever, don't wear red-white-and-blue to "country day".

Originally Posted By: Hauser
And by the way, what is wrong with dissent? I thought dissent was the highest form of patriotism. Or was Thomas Jefferson wrong about that as well?


There's nothing wrong with dissent. That wasn't "dissent", it was contrarianism for its own sake, plain and simple. He was sent to that school for one reason: so that he would be made to take off the shirt and give his parents a reason to call the news station and bitch.



Edited by melliferal (09/24/09 08:06 PM)
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#304066 - 09/24/09 08:13 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
Barkabus Offline
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Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 809
So is this "indoctrination" acceptable?


This was filmed at the B. Bernice Young Elementary School in Burlington, NJ and uploaded on June 19, 2009.

Lyrics
========
Song 1:
Mm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said that all must lend a hand
To make this country strong again
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said we must be fair today
Equal work means equal pay
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said that we must take a stand
To make sure everyone gets a chance
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

He said red, yellow, black or white
All are equal in his sight
Mmm, mmm, mm!
Barack Hussein Obama

Yes!
Mmm, mmm, mm
Barack Hussein Obama

Song 2:
Hello, Mr. President we honor you today!
For all your great accomplishments, we all doth say "hooray!"

Hooray, Mr. President! You're number one!
The first black American to lead this great nation!

Hooray, Mr. President we honor your great plans
To make this country's economy number one again!

Hooray Mr. President, we're really proud of you!
And we stand for all Americans under the great Red, White, and Blue!

So continue ---- Mr. President we know you'll do the trick
So here's a hearty hip-hooray ----

Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!
Hip, hip hooray!



Edited by Barkabus (09/24/09 08:23 PM)
Edit Reason: Added lyrics

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#304071 - 09/24/09 08:40 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Barkabus]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
No - Jesus Christ, no. That's like Ray Bradbury's worst nightmare. It sounds like a bad joke.

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#304096 - 09/24/09 11:17 PM . [Re: melliferal]
GoFigure12 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 72
Loc: USA
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#304101 - 09/24/09 11:29 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
Jaifian Offline


Registered: 05/26/09
Posts: 220
Loc: washington state, USA
I'm with melliferal on this. When I was that kids age both my parents were republicans and even though I didn't know what the word "republican" meant, I assumed they were right about most things because they were my parents.

I never was persuaded or influenced by them to wear any political messages to school, but I'm sure if they had, I probably would have done it and it would probably be something I would not be pleased about today since my political views are quite opposed to those my parents had.

Though I'm very much for freedom of speech I think schools should just have a rule against any words or symbols on clothing at all at school (with the exception of the unavoidable brand names/logos) so that kids and teachers can focus on education instead of controversies like this one.



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#304102 - 09/24/09 11:33 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: GoFigure12]
Clockwise Offline


Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 302
Loc: Pennsylvania
I am somewhat on the fence about this. On the one hand its so obvious that the t-shirt idea and the opinions about Obama are not the kids own, but his father's, and he's just regergitating them for the cameras. But on the other hand, as someone stated before, a person's 1st Amendment rights don't end at the school steps (contrary to what I was once told by one of my grade school teachers).

I do kind of feel upset for the boy because he's being pushed into a battle where he doesn't really have a hand. He is a child and by that virture he must be guided by the adults around him, but those adults (meaning his father and the school) want only for him to conform to their virws which isn't fair to him.

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#304103 - 09/24/09 11:36 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
MrEdd Offline
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Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: melliferal
Originally Posted By: Barkabus
Quote:
That kid was expressing his PARENTS' opinion about a politician, not his own.

How do you happen to know what this kid's opinion is?


Think the boy spotted that t-shirt while shopping with his parents at the Super K-Mart and begged them to get it for him? Come on.


Not even slightly outside the realm of possibility.

I was 4 when my abuse started.
I became hyper vigilant and watched the whole world.
I was 10 years old when the Watergate scandal went down and developed a very strident opinion about the whole matter, as well as other issues of the time.

My opinions didn't always tend to fit well with my parent's opinions.

Do not assume that the young either have no opinion or poorly informed opinions.



Edited by MrEdd (09/24/09 11:37 PM)
_________________________
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#304134 - 09/25/09 07:46 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: GoFigure12]
melliferal Offline
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Originally Posted By: GoFigure12
they'll teach him to be a nice, obedient servant to the new world order.


I respect everyone's opinion; but unfortunately, right there is where I stop taking you seriously.

_________________________
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#304138 - 09/25/09 08:32 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
sono Offline
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Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
I want to get involved in these discussions, wrote a post and have now deleted all my text, because I really don't want to get all negative here.

s





Edited by sono (09/25/09 11:42 AM)
Edit Reason: I won't let myself do political discourse here!!!!! I mean it this time!
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#304172 - 09/25/09 01:42 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: sono]
ComicBookGuy Offline
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Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 443
Loc: London, England
We elected a smooth talking lefty lawyer 12 years ago, he fucked up the country with much of the same tactics here, especially the dismissal of any immigration discussions as "racism" - as aimed at any critic of Obama.

Having said that, Blair's strategy of ruining state schooling whilst sending their own kids to religious and private schools, the Labour party's done that for 50 years.

If education's going too far left in America, hopefully a few class action lawsuits should pull it back the other way or at least the middle, if there's no other resort left.



Edited by ComicBookGuy (09/25/09 01:43 PM)
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#304233 - 09/25/09 08:11 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: ComicBookGuy]
Hauser Offline
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Registered: 11/12/05
Posts: 2962
Loc: United States
What's negative about civil discourse?

It's been a while, but ONCE in a while in the course of my discussions with other people, I hear of something that I never heard of before, and it sparks my interest, and I look into it. It helps me grow.

It's hard for me to recall details, but I think political/social discussion is healthy for all of us.

Why? Well, for me, it HELPS me to define WHO I AM. It HELPS me to realize that I'm different, I have a different world view than most contemporary or prevailing views on any given subject, and I make points that I feel deserve to be made, and...........I guess that what I'm getting at is that I'm trying to find ME in these posts..........I'm trying to find that REAL ME that I never had a chance to grow and develop into.

You guys hear my rants on here.......some of you enjoy them, some of you dismiss them, and some of you never read them because you have more pressing interests but..........I'll tell you this............I would have been a most interesting man had I been allowed to grow in a healthy, safe, nurturing environment. Its a pity to see what little I could salvage out of this wreck of a life.



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#304245 - 09/25/09 11:16 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
sono Offline
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Registered: 07/19/09
Posts: 1069
Hey Hauser,

Civil discourse isn't negative in and of itself...I get negative and that's not what I want here. If we were gonna meet in a bar or coffee shop and have a good debate...yeah, that would be one thing, but I'm just too raw when I'm here...I'm like a moth drawn to a flame though when certain things come up in the active topics. But I swear this is the last time I'll let myself be tempted...it's bad for my recovery!!! lol

sono

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the perp

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#304259 - 09/26/09 04:40 AM . [Re: melliferal]
GoFigure12 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 72
Loc: USA
.


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#304265 - 09/26/09 08:25 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: GoFigure12]
melliferal Offline
Member
MaleSurvivor

Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: GoFigure12
Sorry Mel, I don't think that's the point where you stopped respecting my opinion. I've known you for what, going on 4 years now.... I think you stopped respecting my opinion as soon as you disagreed with it.


So then in order to respect someone's opinion, you must agree with it? No other way? If that's the case, be satisfied with mere "tolerance".



Edited by melliferal (09/26/09 08:25 AM)
_________________________
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#304272 - 09/26/09 10:45 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Hauser]
Sans Logos Offline
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Registered: 05/31/03
Posts: 5791
Loc: in my own world in pittsburgh,...
i don't know the relationship dynamics in this particular family, but all i have to say about the topic in general is that parent who try to shape their kids into mini-me's sicken me.

bleh!

_________________________
  1. the past
  2. ReClaiming Now
  3. advocacy


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#304280 - 09/26/09 11:51 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: Sans Logos]
myboyhoodfears Offline


Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 457
personally i see nothing wrong with a kid waring a tee-shirt like that whether its his opinion or his parents...since we are all products of our upbringing...if it were a similar Bush tee-shirt we would be patting him on the back...saying how much guts it took for him to ware it...we may not like peoples politics but trying to silence them is just as problematic if the shoe is on the other foot...

i wonder how many Cindy Sheehans out there sent thier kids to school with teeshirts that were against the Bushies, and no one complained about it one bit....but besides that...why is it wrong to send a kid to school with a political teeshirt on...we control every aspect of thier lives...when they can eat...what time they go to bed...what sports they are allowed to play, who their friends are,..ect etc....and what cloths they ware...so to say that a parent shouldn't use their kids to make political statements, seems to be over-reaching a bit...we use them for advertizements all the time...(how many kids ware tee shirts with product advertizemnets printed on them...quite a lot)...and the two are morally equivolent.

if the teeshirt had said "i love obama" would he have gotten suspended then?...isnt that a political statement influenced by his parents as well?...why would that be ok and the "anti" shirt isnt?



Edited by myboyhoodfears (09/26/09 11:53 AM)
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#304290 - 09/26/09 12:33 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: myboyhoodfears]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
I think perhaps there was a valuable opportunity lost for all involved. Wouldn't it have been preferable to invite both the young man with the critical Obama t-shirt and a student sporting a t-shirt espousing the opposite argument to both give their factual defense of their positions to the classmates? Respectfully, without interruption, without censorship. Just lay the positions in front of the class and encourage a respectful discussion. It can be done. Debating clubs do it all the time. It would take a courageous and gifted teacher, but it can be done.

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#304291 - 09/26/09 12:34 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: cstjude]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
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Loc: Canada
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it." Voltaire.

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#304379 - 09/27/09 11:13 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: cstjude]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: cstjude
I think perhaps there was a valuable opportunity lost for all involved. Wouldn't it have been preferable to invite both the young man with the critical Obama t-shirt and a student sporting a t-shirt espousing the opposite argument to both give their factual defense of their positions to the classmates? Respectfully, without interruption, without censorship. Just lay the positions in front of the class and encourage a respectful discussion. It can be done. Debating clubs do it all the time. It would take a courageous and gifted teacher, but it can be done.



Yeah, debating clubs in high school.

Elementary schools have so much basic material to teach students and an incredibly limited time in which to do it. Accommodating such a debate would require injecting lessons into the cirriculum about debating method and ettiquette, even on a very simple level. It would turn a day's disruption into a week or more.

There's a reason MOST schools have rules against wearing inflammatory or disruptive clothing. Not the time, not the place.

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#304425 - 09/27/09 07:35 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
MrEdd Offline
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Registered: 01/24/03
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Loc: Texas
The basics of debate were taught to myself and my fellow students in Mrs. Beck's third grade speech class at John James Audubon school in Tulsa.

That was in 1970.

Have academic standards really fallen so far?

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#304431 - 09/27/09 08:18 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: MrEdd]
melliferal Offline
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Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1159
Originally Posted By: MrEdd
The basics of debate were taught to myself and my fellow students in Mrs. Beck's third grade speech class at John James Audubon school in Tulsa.

That was in 1970.

Have academic standards really fallen so far?


Yes and no.

The primary difference is that nowadays, as compared to 1970, there's nearly twice as much the kids must be taught, but still the same amount of time (insofar as the length of the school day and the school year goes) to teach them. So adjustments must be made. Some things have to be booted to a later grade, or made elective. There's just not enough time. Not unless you want to go the way of Japan with its year-long, 6-days-a-week schooling.

Of course, Japan is only a world leader in the realm of primary education, so there's no reason to want to emulate them. Americans have long, long since lost their drive to be world leaders at anything, having discovered that it takes a lot less effort to just unilaterally declare yourself the best damn country on earth regardless, and we're more than happy to leave it at that.



Edited by melliferal (09/27/09 08:19 PM)
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#304441 - 09/27/09 09:43 PM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
cstjude Offline
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Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 302
Loc: Canada
Any school that encourages the kids to participate in "Patriotism Day" should be prepared to handle some - even rudimentary discussion - about what the means. And that discussion should acknolwedge that not everyone feels the same way about their president. It would have been a learning moment. And that moment was lost in all the rhetoric. Pity.

C.

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#304462 - 09/28/09 12:18 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: melliferal]
JustScott Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 2582
Originally Posted By: melliferal

Of course, Japan is only a world leader in the realm of primary education, so there's no reason to want to emulate them. Americans have long, long since lost their drive to be world leaders at anything, having discovered that it takes a lot less effort to just unilaterally declare yourself the best damn country on earth regardless, and we're more than happy to leave it at that.


Yeah, no kidding!!! We live in a country where the majority of people seem to mock those with intelligence and learning and worship and glorify the "dumb jock" view of things. Sad state indeed!

I feel a persons right to free speech is valuable and worth protecting, but I find more and more the education system does more and more to tell kids to "sit down and shut-up". Most of the time when I get into a conversation about the law and constitution with someone younger..... I find out quickly that they really don't know a darn thing and what they do know isn't even close to the truth, it's some warped sense of understanding that's been fed to them by one propaganda group or another that was obviously more interested in forcing their view on people than providing truth or equality.


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#304493 - 09/28/09 09:58 AM Re: Boy Suspended for Wearing Anti-Obama T-Shirt [Re: JustScott]
LilacLouie Offline


Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 359
Loc: Utah
It's wrong for the parents to allow their son to wear an anti-Obama t-shirt, but ok for the school to have little kids sing praise of Obama.....

I'm trying to figure out how the school can define for the children what their political opinion is, when the parents themselves don't have that right. Is it right? Maybe. Is it wrong? Maybe. But I doubt the parents told their son "you're gonna wear this t-shirt, like it or not!", bu the school is in an implied level of authority, comply or else.

The son can always say no, and typically not face any repercutions. But the students DON'T KNOW if they can refuse, because they know they must obey their teachers.


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